There were fewer ES goals that season because so much time was spent on the PP for both teams
Rookie Ovechkin or Prime Matthews
- Thread starter toothlessgoon
- Start date
-
We sincerely apologize for the extended downtime. Our hosting provider, XenForo Cloud, encountered a major issue with their backup system, which unfortunately resulted in the loss of some critical data from the past year.
What This Means for You:
- If you created an account after March 2024, it no longer exists. You will need to sign up again to access the forum.
- If you registered before March 2024 but changed your email, username, or password in the past year, those changes were lost. You’ll need to update your account details manually once you're logged in.
- Threads and posts created within the last year have been restored.
- Our 2025 light and dark themes were lost, so we are rebuilding them. Light theme is currently available, but work in progress
Our team is working with Xenforo Cloud to recover data using backups, sitemaps, and other available resources. We know this is frustrating, and we deeply regret the impact on our community. We are taking steps with Xenforo Cloud to ensure this never happens again. This is work in progress. Thank you for your patience and support as we work through this.
In the meantime, feel free to join our Discord Server
PatriceBergeronFan
Registered User
ES scoring per minute has also been higher in recent years, and there’s 3 on 3 and teams are pulling the goalie more. Matthews also had a terrible on-ice save percentage so gave up a lot more goals than expected. Though his on-ice save percentage being poor is a bit of a trend
True, but even when you factor that in, the Leafs were giving up more goals per 60 with Matthews on the ice at ES than the Caps were with Ovechkin.
ES Minutes
Matthews: 1274
Ovechkin: 1141
81 / 1274 = .0635
70 / 1141 = .061
To be fair, Matthews had 10 EN goals against and 4 3v3 goals against. I don't know what wonky situations apply for Ovie because natural stat trick doesn't do the data for '05-06 but clearly there was less EN and no 3v3.
Whatever the case, this idea that Matthews was getting a significantly better defensive result is not showing up in the Goals against stats despite Ovechkin being surrounded by very bad lottery team players.
Ovechkin tilted the ice so much he didn’t really need to play defense. Matthews is inconsistent with his defensive play but when he’s on he’s a truly great defensive player for someone with his offense, or just for any forward in general really.
Nadal On Clay
Djokovic > Nadal > Federer
- Oct 11, 2017
- 3,075
- 2,715
If you seriously think 2006 Ovechkin was better than 2022 Matthews you need to reevaluate your hockey opinions. One of the worst poll results I’ve seen here.
Obvious Fabertism
Registered User
Rookie Ovechkin was the most entertaining hockey player since Wayne, and maybe more so. Just a complete bull on the ice, pure strength and energy unleashed in a way that was extremely refreshing.
“Better” could mean a lot of things, but in a sport that’s ultimately about entertainment, I don’t think much of anything the last two decades comes close to rookie Ovechkin in terms of impact.
“Better” could mean a lot of things, but in a sport that’s ultimately about entertainment, I don’t think much of anything the last two decades comes close to rookie Ovechkin in terms of impact.
Gretzky wasn’t really all that entertaining, atleast not compared to dozens of players who came before and after like Orr, Lemieux, Bure, Forsberg, Jagr, Lindros, etc. but I can agree a young Ovechkin could be #1 all-time in terms of entertainment value
HTFN
Registered User
- Feb 8, 2009
- 12,178
- 10,721
you say it like that's bad but it's one of the most desirable things you could ask for in a forward. Ovechkin "not playing defense" means he's on offense, which is just categorically better than being a good defensive presence by default.
Matthews is clearly the better player to this point of their careers.
Better goal scorer, selke nominee, generally the leading shot blocker as a forward.
He’s ahead of ovy by 27. But there is basically zero chance he has a better back half than ovy.
Too injury prone
Better goal scorer, selke nominee, generally the leading shot blocker as a forward.
He’s ahead of ovy by 27. But there is basically zero chance he has a better back half than ovy.
Too injury prone
GlitchMarner
There was a Glitch and my username was switched
Ummm... what?
You can argue peak Matthews is better than rookie Ovechkin, but by no means is Matthews through age 27 better than Ovechkin up to age 27.
Ovechkin won the Ted Lindsay three years in a row and had three Hart trophies by age 27.
Matthews has more career goals.
Plays C
Selke nominee.
All of his metrics are better.
Ovy played as the young star in a league with way less talent then now.
Crosby was injured for 2 years.
No comparison to Drai/mack/kuch/mcdavid
How did I say that like it’s bad? Of course it’s a good trait to have as a mainly offensive player..
Matthews is seriously underrated compared to Ovechkin. People aren’t aware of how impressive his numbers are for his deployment. Someone already did adjustments and Ovechkin played in a slightly higher scoring environment than Matthews did up to the same age (taking into account PP and ES usage and scoring rates), and Matthews still scored more goals while being a two-way center. How many centres in NHL history scored at his rate with his usage or level of defensive skill and responsibility? The answer is essentially zero unless there’s some pre WW2 player that’s not coming to mind here.
All of this is not to say I personally believe Matthews is better prime for prime, but it’s no crazier an opinion than rookie Ovechkin being better than prime Matthews. It is way closer than this board would ever admit.
Which season was the bold?
This is a bit misleading. There were an extra 6 powerplays per game in Ovechkin's rookie season. Matthews might have been on the ice for an extra ~11 goals against but he was also playing an extra ~3 minutes per game at ES.
The season he won the Hart trophy
Just want to add how funny it is that Matthews at his peak scored 51 goals in 50 games, and people are genuinely insisting rookie Ovechkin was better with 52 goals the entire season, and Matthews did this as a two-way player with half the powerplay time
Even if you take empty net points out from that season for both of them McDavid was slightly ahead of Matthews in points/game.
FWIW I voted Matthews in this poll. I think people are being swayed by Matthews’ relative inconsistency and the fact that he’s having a bit of an off year. But when he’s been at his best I think he was better than Ovechkin as a rookie.
Prime vs prime is a different story
To be fair to rookie Ovechkin, the next closest scorer on his team that season would have finished 7th or 8th on the Leafs the year Matthews first scored 60. Matthews was a more well rounded player giving him the edge, but as sheer dominant offensive player I think even a rookie Ovechkin gets that nod. Give him Mitch Marner in his rookie season and it’s not a stretch to think he’d have been able to hit 60 too.Just want to add how funny it is that Matthews at his peak scored 51 goals in 50 games, and people are genuinely insisting rookie Ovechkin was better with 52 goals the entire season, and Matthews did this as a two-way player with half the powerplay time
BraveCanadian
Registered User
- Jun 30, 2010
- 14,537
- 3,377
Caps8112
Registered User
- Aug 12, 2008
- 3,340
- 1,758
This is true. Was true for Ovi too, no matter how unfair. Just winning a cup takes away a lot of hate for a player. I sitll take rookie Ovi but its not like that means prime matthews season wasnt ridiculous too. Rookie Ovi had Zubrus as his next best player. Matthews, even with more responsibilities was playing on a team worlds better then the 06 caps. The players on the 06 caps were castoffs, unrealized draft picks and vets trying to stay in the league one more time. Matthews prime he is with with his current core that is trying to win the cup. Just not comparable.
The Leafs surrendered more goals per minute at ES with Matthews on the ice than the lottery team Capitals did with Ovie on the ice.
filinski77
Registered User
- Feb 12, 2017
- 2,578
- 4,169
Wrong. Through each players first 9 seasons, Ovechkin has been very clearly superior
If I had to rank their individual seasons, Ovechkin has more of the top-end seasons as well.
During Ovi's first 9 seasons, he is:
-> 1st in goals (with a 36% lead over #2, and a 54% lead over #10)
-> 1st in points (with a 5% lead over #2, and a 29% lead over #10)
During Matthews first 9 seasons, he is:
-> 1st in goals (with a 5% lead over #2, and a 41% lead over #10)
-> 9th in points (with a 30% deficit behind #1 and a 3% lead over #10)
I mean head-to-head a 31 to 39 year old Ovechkin who is way past peak is close to prime-aged Matthews in both points (712 Matthews vs 643 Ovi) and goals (395 Matthews vs 363 Ovi)
Video Nasty
Registered User
- Mar 12, 2017
- 4,493
- 7,636
Yes, Matthews at his best was better than Ovechkin was as a rookie.
But it’s disturbingly close. That’s how good Ovechkin was right off the bat.
Seems like a lot of people are voting for the version of Ovechkin that nearly swept all the awards for three straight years. That version was better than Matthews will ever be, but he wasn’t a rookie.
But it’s disturbingly close. That’s how good Ovechkin was right off the bat.
Seems like a lot of people are voting for the version of Ovechkin that nearly swept all the awards for three straight years. That version was better than Matthews will ever be, but he wasn’t a rookie.
I think playoffs has a lot to do with it. I think Matthews’ ‘24, ‘22 and ‘21 (though shortened) were all better regular seasons. But while we never saw rookie Ovechkin in the playoffs, I kind of think I’d take a chance on him between them going into the playoffs.
Comparing relative to peers indicates that peers are the same.
Steve yzerman has less harts and rosses than both sedins, Benn and Corey freaking Perry.
Early ovy didn’t play against Anywhere near the talent that Matthews did in his first 9 years.
Matthews had less TOI. Less pp and still outscored ovy despite having to play match up C, lead all forwards in block shots and be a selke level Forward.
I fully agree that ovy is much more likely to have a better second half, one because Matthews is likely to break down and 2 because ovy is unique. But first 9 years Matthews has been better
