Ron Francis

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You didn't watch him in Carolina in guess. He will sit tight at the trade deadline. Maybe a few small moves.

He is a terrible GM. Should be fired.

It's extremely important not to judge him the same in Seattle. The owners he worked for in Carolina were notoriously stingy with money and probably gave him very little bandwidth. We've already heard that Seattle's ownership is quite the opposite. I think passing judgment based on his time in Carolina is premature. If it turns out it's no different, well, then we can... but he hasn't had a TDL with Seattle yet.
 
Signing the best free agent goal keeper and a couple other top free agents isn’t conservative in a 32 team league. There wasn’t a ton on the market, but Seattle went all in. His draft was conservative, sure, but Seattle went all out with free agents because the expansion draft was conservative.
 
If he went all in he would have been able to get guys like Hamilton with whom the Kraken had discussions that went nowhere.

If this is his "all in" that's all the more reason to fire him because he didn't deliver.

Why be conservative in the draft if you plan to go "all in" on FAs? Why take so many guys you then cut or don't sign If you're going "all in"?

Francis is a f***ing joke bro. Watch how the TDL and next few years unfold then come back and apologize.
 
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You didn't watch him in Carolina in guess. He will sit tight at the trade deadline. Maybe a few small moves.

He is a terrible GM. Should be fired.

idk about that. He stockpiled draft picks in his time there and set the foundation for what they are now. It's not unusual that the guy who builds the base doesn't get the time to see it through and the NEXT guy gets the credit when he walks into that scenario of a stocked cupboard.
I'm more worried about Jason Botterill being part of it myself. His Buffalo tenure was pretty bad to say the least. Pittsburgh connections got him hired I guess, but I just hope he isn't in on any big decisions.
 
It's hard to argue Francis has done a good job. What was his strategy? It seemed like he was trying to build a winning team with the FA (especially goalie) signings, but then he leaves a bunch of great expansion picks on the table to maintain flexibility.

Go all in on winning or all in on losing. He tried to split the baby and left us with a terrible squad and no cupboard. Even if we planned on tanking why not take some high value guys in expansion draft and move them to contenders for picks.....

Francis is a joke IMO.

What great expansion picks are those? Voracek ppg is now below Schwartz who we couldn't sign if Voracek was on the roster with his 8.25M cap. Schwartz is younger and has a low caphit. Domi, he's cooled off massively after his hot start, his value is coming down as well. Can't see many teams offering up a 2nd anymore. Tarasenko is still scoring well but Dunn is continuing to grow on this team and will be around a long time.
 
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If he went all in he would have been able to get guys like Hamilton with whom the Kraken had discussions that went nowhere.

If this is his "all in" that's all the more reason to fire him because he didn't deliver.

Why be conservative in the draft if you plan to go "all in" on FAs? Why take so many guys you then cut or don't sign If you're going "all in"?

Francis is a f***ing joke bro. Watch how the TDL and next few years unfold then come back and apologize.

1.) there was likely no way Hamilton was signing with a west coast expansion team.

2.) As an expansion team, sigining a 28 year old UFAs to 7 x 9 million dollar deals out of the gate is the best way to never become a contender.

It's understandable that you want instant success without the pain almost all contenders have to go through to build their core, but teams that try to cheat the build process and rush to contention typically spin in mediocrity until they embrace a tear-down and a proper rebuild.
 
I'm sure many teams will be prowling for this, but the move to make first is getting somebody off Vegas' payroll for next to nothing so they can play Eichel.
 
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I'm sure many teams will be prowling for this, but the move to make first is getting somebody off Vegas' payroll for next to nothing so they can play Eichel.

Pretty sure they'll give Dadonov away, might have to add to him but he doesn't really do much for the Kraken. With them signing McNabb and Hague a RFA I can see Martinez being the off man out on the left. Hefty cap for someone his age but still a good player, just not sure we would be looking at a 35 year old. Whitcloud on the right could be available signed for 6 years after this but just 2.75M, RD so maybe a swap for Borgen where they get the cheaper asset and we get the upgrade?

Wildcard could be Karlsson, with Eichel and the emergence of Stephenson he's an expensive 3C and his production is slipping. Signed for 6 more years at 5.9M so risky if he play keeps dipping. Possible upgrade on Wennberg but he would need to get back to 50 points, if their production is similar I take Wennberg who's cheaper and not signed as long.
 
1.) there was likely no way Hamilton was signing with a west coast expansion team.

2.) As an expansion team, sigining a 28 year old UFAs to 7 x 9 million dollar deals out of the gate is the best way to never become a contender.

It's understandable that you want instant success without the pain almost all contenders have to go through to build their core, but teams that try to cheat the build process and rush to contention typically spin in mediocrity until they embrace a tear-down and a proper rebuild.
I didn't want to sign Hamilton. I'm just responding to the argument that Francis went "all in" on free agency so isn't conservative.

I would have preferred we draft the best players available through expansion and move them for young guys and draft picks, sign nobody worthwhile in FA, and have a terrible team the first few years while developing our future.
 
I didn't want to sign Hamilton. I'm just responding to the argument that Francis went "all in" on free agency so isn't conservative.

I would have preferred we draft the best players available through expansion and move them for young guys and draft picks, sign nobody worthwhile in FA, and have a terrible team the first few years while developing our future.

There was no way Francis was able to do that.

There was way too much anticipation, fan support and $ poured in by the ownership group to just openly stink for the first few seasons.
On top of that you had Vegas which everyone compares us to and gave the impression we could be very good from the get go.

Also, those veterans you wanted to pick and move didn't have all that much value(thanks to their contracts and/or recent play) and, in order to aquire something decent, would've required him to retain quite a bit on their multi year deals.
 
Retaining cap isn't a big deal for a nascent franchise tanking for a few years. For example Tarasenko. We retain some cap through 2023. No big deal. If he sucks and can't be moved? Still no big deal. We have the cap space and sucking is the plan. Eat the salary and move on.

Funny you say that tanking wouldn't be acceptable, while the Kraken are one of the worst teams in the league. Sounds like Francis is accidentally tanking which speaks very well to his skillset as a GM.

Fire Ron Francis.
 
Retaining cap isn't a big deal for a nascent franchise tanking for a few years. For example Tarasenko. We retain some cap through 2023. No big deal. If he sucks and can't be moved? Still no big deal. We have the cap space and sucking is the plan. Eat the salary and move on.

This is such a hockey's future take and is not grounded in reality.

Seattle's ownership went way over budget on bringing this team into the league.

They spent nearly 2 BILLION dollars before they even played a game.

Tarasenko is earning 9.5 million this year, and there were serious questions about his health and ability to recover and not reinjure a shoulder he had had multiple surgeries on.

Fans that say "10 million dollars? Who cares about the risk, they can pay 10 million and *maybe* trade him for a draft pick. If he can't play, no big deal, the team has the cap space and it isn't my money".

Seriously, you can not ignore the financial side of this equation if you want to be realistic while trying to play armchair GM.

It doesn't work that way in the real world
 
I didn't want to sign Hamilton. I'm just responding to the argument that Francis went "all in" on free agency so isn't conservative.

I would have preferred we draft the best players available through expansion and move them for young guys and draft picks, sign nobody worthwhile in FA, and have a terrible team the first few years while developing our future.

I agree with you here, the team didn't go "all in", and all signings were calculated and based on work ethic and character with the idea of building a locker room foundation.

Except for the Grubauer signing.

It made no sense at the time and makes even less sense now.

Everyone is speculating that Francis had such a crap time in Carolina with trying to stabilize his team's crease, that he threw money at the one position that elluded him there

That theory makes sense, but it was a move that honestly just doesn't line up with everything else he has said and done.

It has also been his far and away worst move as GM so far. Although I disliked the signing when it happened, I do feel that we need to give a 6 year deal more than half a season before completely judging it and using it as fodder to fire a GM.
 
I agree with you here, the team didn't go "all in", and all signings were calculated and based on work ethic and character with the idea of building a locker room foundation.

Except for the Grubauer signing.

It made no sense at the time and makes even less sense now.

Everyone is speculating that Francis had such a crap time in Carolina with trying to stabilize his team's crease, that he threw money at the one position that elluded him there

That theory makes sense, but it was a move that honestly just doesn't line up with everything else he has said and done.

It has also been his far and away worst move as GM so far. Although I disliked the signing when it happened, I do feel that we need to give a 6 year deal more than half a season before completely judging it and using it as fodder to fire a GM.

I don't see the Grubauer signing as being an all-in signing. This team was supposed to build around goaltending and team defense. Both Vanecek and Driedger were largely unproven and while he got his D set via expansion and UFA, he may just not have felt comfortable enough with the lack of experience at the goalie position so when the opportunity presented itself, he went for it.

All that went to crap anyway once the system and skaters did not mesh right away.

The way I look at it is that he had a plan. The plan did NOT work. What does he do now? If he does a good job at the TDL with asset management, I think we can bounce back nicely.
 
Retaining cap isn't a big deal for a nascent franchise tanking for a few years. For example Tarasenko. We retain some cap through 2023. No big deal. If he sucks and can't be moved? Still no big deal. We have the cap space and sucking is the plan. Eat the salary and move on.

Funny you say that tanking wouldn't be acceptable, while the Kraken are one of the worst teams in the league. Sounds like Francis is accidentally tanking which speaks very well to his skillset as a GM.

Fire Ron Francis.

Tarasenko? Again? Honestly?

The guy was either injured or nowhere near his former self for the past two seasons thanks to two or three surgeries on his shooting arm.
The Blues tried everything and couldn't get anything of value in return, unless they would've retained, and that's why he's still there.

That's also just about that guy and without taking into consideration that taking him would've prevented us from taking Vince Dunn, who's a very good and young player.

So good luck with trying to trade guys like that, with term left on their contracts, in a flat cap era.
I mean, there was a reason why all those 30-ish overpaid guys where available during the expansion draft and the reason for it wasn't their fantastic trade value or recent play.

BTW: Still, Francis plan didn't work because the actual idea of playing a tight and more defensive minded style(to try and win 2-1 or 3-2 while also making it to a lot of OT's) either didn't work at the start or just wasn't implented by Hakstol until a couple of weeks ago.

I don't see the Grubauer signing as being an all-in signing. This team was supposed to build around goaltending and team defense. Both Vanecek and Driedger were largely unproven and while he got his D set via expansion and UFA, he may just not have felt comfortable enough with the lack of experience at the goalie position so when the opportunity presented itself, he went for it.

All that went to crap anyway once the system and skaters did not mesh right away.

The way I look at it is that he had a plan. The plan did NOT work. What does he do now? If he does a good job at the TDL with asset management, I think we can bounce back nicely.

Basically this.
Francis plan didn't pan out(at least in season one) and he now has to show he can react to it and correct the things that aren't working.

Though, he basically got his first strike with that expansion draft and first offseason as there's a lot of work to do.
 
I don't see the Grubauer signing as being an all-in signing. This team was supposed to build around goaltending and team defense. Both Vanecek and Driedger were largely unproven and while he got his D set via expansion and UFA, he may just not have felt comfortable enough with the lack of experience at the goalie position so when the opportunity presented itself, he went for it.

All that went to crap anyway once the system and skaters did not mesh right away.

The way I look at it is that he had a plan. The plan did NOT work. What does he do now? If he does a good job at the TDL with asset management, I think we can bounce back nicely.

I think that if we look at each move individually, an expansion team going out and signing the biggest free agent UFA goalie to a big contract is an "all in" move for that position.

That does not mean that Francis was at any time planning to go all-in.

The context of this discussion was whether or not Francis went all in between Marquis and DylanMaAurthur.

I agree, At no time was Francis thinking all in, and I think you are right, that the goal was to have solid D and goaltending, but the optics were confusing to most around the league, as several of these moves were conflicting from a long-term plan standpoint.

We are all judging the season results as the measuring stick, but I think the plan was always a patient build through the draft, and just because this season wasn't a success on the ice, doesn't mean that any part of the plan has changed.

We are all just speculating that changes have to be made because of this year's results, but that may not be the immediate goal. Yes, we all wanted more young prospects, more picks, and more on ice success, but no one can argue that the environment was not ideal
 
This is such a hockey's future take and is not grounded in reality.

Seattle's ownership went way over budget on bringing this team into the league.

They spent nearly 2 BILLION dollars before they even played a game.

Tarasenko is earning 9.5 million this year, and there were serious questions about his health and ability to recover and not reinjure a shoulder he had had multiple surgeries on.

Fans that say "10 million dollars? Who cares about the risk, they can pay 10 million and *maybe* trade him for a draft pick. If he can't play, no big deal, the team has the cap space and it isn't my money".

Seriously, you can not ignore the financial side of this equation if you want to be realistic while trying to play armchair GM.

It doesn't work that way in the real world

The Ron Francis defenders are all over the map.

"Francis didn't make big moves in Carolina because owners were cheap - but Seattle owners will spend big, so just watch Ronny go big at the trade deadline!"

"Francis couldn't take chances on big salaries because ownership didn't have the dough!"

"Francis went all in for free agency because the Kraken had to win right away - he couldn't just tank and build the cupboard!"

I'm not sure what explains the dedication to pretending that Francis is doing a good job while we sit here with minimal extra draft picks, very few good young players, and a garbage product on the ice....

So let's say you're right and ownership vetoed Tarasenko because he's too expensive. Now explain taking Quenneville over, say, Zadorov. Is that ownership's fault too?
 
The Ron Francis defenders are all over the map.

"Francis didn't make big moves in Carolina because owners were cheap - but Seattle owners will spend big, so just watch Ronny go big at the trade deadline!"

"Francis couldn't take chances on big salaries because ownership didn't have the dough!"

"Francis went all in for free agency because the Kraken had to win right away - he couldn't just tank and build the cupboard!"

I'm not sure what explains the dedication to pretending that Francis is doing a good job while we sit here with minimal extra draft picks, very few good young players, and a garbage product on the ice....

So let's say you're right and ownership vetoed Tarasenko because he's too expensive. Now explain taking Quenneville over, say, Zadorov. Is that ownership's fault too?

If you ever cared to read the discussions around Francis and the expansion draft on this board you'd not written that stuff.

There's been an active and nuanced discussion about his decisions(well, there actually still is) and the questioning of what he exactly tried to do by bringing in all those guys in their late 20's after talking about a three to five year plan.

He indeed went out in free agency and brought in those Grubauer's, Schwartz's and Wennberg's in order to field a team that is competitive from the start and maybe even competes for a playoff spot.

At least that was the plan which just didn't pan out and now has him being on the spot to correct those decisions.

The reason for that was in fact that he couldn't just do your "well just bring in those old, high priced guys and if things don't work we can just sell them off" plan because those guys were left unprotected for a reason and didn't really have a market.
At least not unless you'd retain on them.

And you also couldn't tell the fans(the first home game was an average of $600 per ticket) that "hey, thanks for all the money but we don't really care and give up before the season starts".

As far as your last point.
Well, that was discussed on here(probably not in this specific thread) at nauseam as those picks made no sense and should have been used for other players you flip immediatly, like Vegas did.

But hey, just come in here and call everyone a "Francis defender" because we don't nod at every point the friggin general board loves to make in order to feel better about themselves.
 
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The Ron Francis defenders are all over the map.

"Francis didn't make big moves in Carolina because owners were cheap - but Seattle owners will spend big, so just watch Ronny go big at the trade deadline!"

"Francis couldn't take chances on big salaries because ownership didn't have the dough!"

"Francis went all in for free agency because the Kraken had to win right away - he couldn't just tank and build the cupboard!"

I'm not sure what explains the dedication to pretending that Francis is doing a good job while we sit here with minimal extra draft picks, very few good young players, and a garbage product on the ice....

So let's say you're right and ownership vetoed Tarasenko because he's too expensive. Now explain taking Quenneville over, say, Zadorov. Is that ownership's fault too?

Are you actually trying to compare an expansion team that just went 2 billion dollars in the hole to come into the league, but is willing to spend the cap if quality players are available, but is not willing to throw 10 million on a gamble for a draft pick the same situation as a team that cuts payroll costs and won't actively spend to the cap?

Can you not understand that those two things are not mutually exclusive?

You are twisting words from two different posters to try to create a perception of contradiction - it is akin to twisting peoples words out of context. It is dishonest.

Selecting Quenneville was the equivalent of Francis saying "you have no contracts that I want, so I am going to pass".

Zadorov was on the market for months, and with his rumored high salary demands he had absolutely zero value before UFA opened. Treliving panicked weeks after missing the boat in the UFA market and gave up a likely late third(Toronto) to rent him for a year, but there is zero guarantee he would have given Francis that, and would have instead looked elsewhere. Rumor was that he was not happy with Francis selecting Gio.

Zadorov has very little value now, even as a rental at almost 4 million.

Drafting a player that you have no room for on your team that was asking for way more salary than he was worth and hoping that something will come up is not a wise GM move.

I will admit that I have been a strong defender of many of Francis' moves when I feel like the arguments for the criticism are unrealistic, but I have also been fairly critical of several of the moves as well (Oleksiak, Grubauer and Schwartz signings - I've come here and eaten crow on the Oleksiak move, but I still often gripe about the Schwartz signing, as I think that contract will be worse than Grubauer's long term).

As someone that *tries* to call it like it is, I feel like no one can judge Francis' plan until after the deadline.

If he moves all the UFAs for picks, like he did in Carolina, then we'll have a good idea of his plan. If he hangs onto them and re-sign's guys heading into their 30s, then things will be different, and we can assess the performance then, when we have more of the information we need to make proper evaluations of his moves.
 

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