Ron Francis

[Fistfullofbeer]

Not gonna disagree with you. I was being generous, lol, people here like optimism.

I am hoping for more watchable hockey in that time span considering the high draft picks this team will have.

I think negativity is tiresome and gives you nothing to look forward to. Been there done that. Both in real life and while following sports teams.

It is ok to point out issues and possible solutions but if you cannot control the situation, repeating the same negativity time and again does nothing but make you and others more upset.

You always raise good points and are very knowledgeable about hockey but this is an expansion team. There was never going to be a quick solution. Heck, look at Vegas. They caught lightning in a bottle and went for it all the first few seasons. They got unlucky this year due to injuries and are likely to miss the playoffs. No top draft pick for the next few years. Hard against the cap.

 

[Gniwder]

Beniers will likely see some ice time next season. He will likely have ups and downs. I expect he will have a big impact in 3 years. If we get Wright, he might be a little faster so they might both impact us around the same time. That's your upwards trajectory point where you can start thinking playoffs. I doubt it's any faster than that.

He's either going to get guaranteed ice time or he'll stay in school. That's usually how it works with college kids, there's very little incentive for him to play in the AHL. The way to lock him into a contract is to let him play this season, we discussed that here a couple of weeks ago.

Not the best for the team in terms of leveraging his ELC, but the priority is to get him signed no matter what it takes. If he pulls an Adam Fox, that sets this team back a season in the building process.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

He's either going to get guaranteed ice time or he'll stay in school. That's usually how it works with college kids, there's very little incentive for him to play in the AHL. The way to lock him into a contract is to let him play this season, we discussed that here a couple of weeks ago.

Not the best for the team in terms of leveraging his ELC, but the priority is to get him signed no matter what it takes. If he pulls an Adam Fox, that sets this team back a season in the building process.

Yep. Francis was transparent about that. He knows it burns a year of the ELC if Beniers signs and plays this year but he understands this is part of the business to get high profile picks to get to sign sooner than later.

He gets some time (8-9 games) and the team gets to see how he looks and the areas of improvement. Next season he could be sent down to the AHL but I expect him to be given a wide berth before that happens.

 

[Irie]

First round draft picks have a 90%+ chance of making it and 2nd round have a 70%+ chance. That's not especially impressive......

9 out of 10 first round picks do not become regular NHLers, and it is no where near 7 out of 10 for the 2nd round. Where are you getting your numbers?

 

[Irie]

Mackinnon and Mathews will never even take a phone call from the Kraken.

Seattle won't have trouble attracting top flight NHL talent if they have high-end homegrown talent in place.

If Cities like Detroit, Pittsburgh, and Denver can attract players without tax-free status, Seattle will have no trouble either.

It is a chance to win that drives some, and money that drives others. Some follow both. Seattle will have cap, and if they have a young roster filled with High-end talent, that will be very appealing to a lot of UFAs looking for longer contracts and a chance to be part of something before they retire.

 

[GrungeHockey]

I might have this wrong as it's kind of complicated but as I understand it Vegas can still trade players away as they will be over the cap if bodies come back off IR and with the Dadonov deal voided they will be in trouble, but the players in question wouldn't be allowed to play for those teams until next season. If that is in fact true, there is an opportunity here to steal somebody with our cap room.

 

[Irie]

I might have this wrong as it's kind of complicated but as I understand it Vegas can still trade players away as they will be over the cap if bodies come back off IR and with the Dadonov deal voided they will be in trouble, but the players in question wouldn't be allowed to play for those teams until next season. If that is in fact true, there is an opportunity here to steal somebody with our cap room.

Teams can trade anyone at anytime. (except for the few roster freeze times during holidays and such) The trade deadline is just a date that no players acquired after can play in the playoffs.

But Seattle could pick up anyone from now till the end of the season and dress them for games still this year.

 

[The Marquis]

Teams can trade anyone at anytime. (except for the few roster freeze times during holidays and such) The trade deadline is just a date that no players acquired after can play in the playoffs.

But Seattle could pick up anyone from now till the end of the season and dress them for games still this year.

No, that’s not the case, It’s the regular season too. It’s in the ByLaws. Like 247 or something. It was recently discussed on the Dadonov thread which included a posting of the actual bylaw language and it’s clear. No playing at all. Was also discussed by Friedman on 32 Thoughts and LeBrun on The Athletic pod today or yesterday, both confirmed no regular season or playoffs for players traded after the deadline.

 

[Irie]

No, that’s not the case, It’s the regular season too. It’s in the ByLaws. Like 247 or something. It was recently discussed on the Dadonov thread which included a posting of the actual bylaw language and it’s clear. No playing at all. Was also discussed by Friedman on 32 Thoughts and LeBrun on The Athletic pod today or yesterday, both confirmed no regular season or playoffs for players traded after the deadline.

Are you certain? Because in the past, you could always trade for guys, but they are justnot eligible for the playoffs.

This is from google, too:

While there is a specific deadline for trades, teams can still acquire players from other clubs after March 21. The caveat is that any player traded after the March 21 deadline is not eligible to be placed on a team's postseason roster. They can play the rest of the regular season with their new squad, however.

The CBA always had that in place so that a player without an No-Trade-Clause could still play if they were traded.

Having trades possible that could lock players out from playing seems like something there is no way the players association would agree to.

 

[GrungeHockey]

No, that’s not the case, It’s the regular season too. It’s in the ByLaws. Like 247 or something. It was recently discussed on the Dadonov thread which included a posting of the actual bylaw language and it’s clear. No playing at all. Was also discussed by Friedman on 32 Thoughts and LeBrun on The Athletic pod today or yesterday, both confirmed no regular season or playoffs for players traded after the deadline.

I think this is right. In any event, a team like Seattle, building for next year is in a perfect position to take advantage of this. Come on Ronnie, make it happen.

 

[Irie]

No, that’s not the case, It’s the regular season too. It’s in the ByLaws. Like 247 or something. It was recently discussed on the Dadonov thread which included a posting of the actual bylaw language and it’s clear. No playing at all. Was also discussed by Friedman on 32 Thoughts and LeBrun on The Athletic pod today or yesterday, both confirmed no regular season or playoffs for players traded after the deadline.

Ok, so i stand corrected, sorry @GrungeHockey , I have given you bad info.

The fact that a GM could trade a player right after the TDL and effectively lock them out from playing for the rest of the season seems crazy to me, but that seems to be the case.

I should know better than to question @The Marquis

 

[The Marquis]

Ok, so i stand corrected, sorry @GrungeHockey , I have given you bad info.

The fact that a GM could trade a player right after the TDL and effectively lock them out from playing for the rest of the season seems crazy to me, but that seems to be the case.

I should know better than to question @The Marquis

Yeah, I got super deep in the Dadonov discussion (contract stuff interests me automatically since it's a big part of my job and I understand it well, apparently better than Vegas' management) and one of the questions brought up there for probably 500 posts worth of discussion over 12 hours (lmfao) was this exact thing and poster/global mod mouser (resident contracts, rules and CBA guru around here) brought the actual by-laws language to the thread, with reference numbers and everything, even cited the age of the actual by-law (old). They also explained what the language itself means as the by-laws spoke about players as being on a team's "reserve list" rather than calling them players, etc. So the wording confused a few folks, but by "reserve list" it meant any player that said team holds the rights (whether signed or not) too cannot be transfered to another team, or traded past the deadline and play in any more in the "playing season". If it weren't in the Dadonov thread, I'd probably try and find it again, but LMFAO at THAT.

I wasn't convinced either way prior to seeing that language, because it isn't in the CBA (except that the CBA speaks directly to abiding by all by-laws and rules of the NHL not found in the CBA), but it's most definitely there.

Now, this all begs the question. Does the NHL even know about this by-law? lolololol

 

[Irie]

Yeah, I got super deep in the Dadonov discussion (contract stuff interests me automatically since it's a big part of my job and I understand it well, apparently better than Vegas' management) and one of the questions brought up there for probably 500 posts worth of discussion over 12 hours (lmfao) was this exact thing and poster/global mod mouser (resident contracts, rules and CBA guru around here) brought the actual by-laws language to the thread, with reference numbers and everything, even cited the age of the actual by-law (old). They also explained what the language itself means as the by-laws spoke about players as being on a team's "reserve list" rather than calling them players, etc. So the wording confused a few folks, but by "reserve list" it meant any player that said team holds the rights (whether signed or not) too cannot be transfered to another team, or traded past the deadline and play in any more in the "playing season". If it weren't in the Dadonov thread, I'd probably try and find it again, but LMFAO at THAT.

I wasn't convinced either way prior to seeing that language, because it isn't in the CBA (except that the CBA speaks directly to abiding by all by-laws and rules of the NHL not found in the CBA), but it's most definitely there.

Now, this all begs the question. Does the NHL even know about this by-law? lolololol

The thing I find funny about this entire situation, is that this misconception has been taken as common knowledge on these boards forever. It's been published by reputable news sources, and defended by people much smarter than me on the subject. I always just took it as fact, because as far as I know, the NHL does not publish their by-laws.

To find out that it has always been wrong is kinda hysterical.

I believe it has never really been an issue because NTCs have always been more respected in the past than they seem to be lately. To get an NTC, players typically make other concessions, and most nhl teams have been run, at least partially, by people that are more hockey than lawyers. There was a code of respect that dictated how business was done.

I think we are now seeing a shift in this environment, for better or worse.

 

[Gniwder]

I always just took it as fact, because as far as I know, the NHL does not publish their by-laws.

It is of public record because of the 'Yote's bankruptcy case and probably every lawsuit involving teams, players, and the NHL especially those involving contract disputes like Ewe Krupp (I'm old, lol).

NHL's secret constitution revealed

All the secrets are out. The NHL constitution is now a matter of public record, as is the fact that Toronto Argonauts co-owners David Cynamon and Howard Sokolowski are among four different bidders looking to buy the Phoenix Coyotes.

www.thestar.com

So if you're willing to go through public records you should be able to find the info.

Edit: I once did court records searches for an previous employer due to a contract dispute with a supplier. I had access to multiple paid services, but I don't deal with that stuff anymore.

 

[Irie]

It is of public record because of the 'Yote's bankruptcy case and probably every lawsuit involving teams, players, and the NHL especially those involving contract disputes like Ewe Krupp (I'm old, lol).

NHL's secret constitution revealed

All the secrets are out. The NHL constitution is now a matter of public record, as is the fact that Toronto Argonauts co-owners David Cynamon and Howard Sokolowski are among four different bidders looking to buy the Phoenix Coyotes.

www.thestar.com

So if you're willing to go through public records you should be able to find the info.

Edit: I once did court records searches for an previous employer due to a contract dispute with a supplier. I had access to multiple paid services, but I don't deal with that stuff anymore.

Nice find! and thanks for sharing.

It always feels so shady the way sports leagues are so secretive about all their rules. I know they want to avoid any and all bad press and try to resolve all issues "in house", but usually the handing of situations makes the organization feel so clandestine that they often appear corrupt.

A little transparency might actually do them some good once in a while

As for being old, you may remember the Krupp contract debacle, but as a Buffalo fan growing up, I actually remember Krupp being drafted

 

[The Marquis]

It seems like the issue of players moving after the deadline ought to be spelled out in the CBA. Insane that it’s not since it’s a concern of the represented players. Granted this is the first time it’s been such a high profile issue. Thanks “McCriminal”. I do not take credit for that, nor agree, since I believe the pressure on him isn’t his own, but it’s hilarious.

 

[GrungeHockey]

Ok, so i stand corrected, sorry @GrungeHockey , I have given you bad info.

The fact that a GM could trade a player right after the TDL and effectively lock them out from playing for the rest of the season seems crazy to me, but that seems to be the case.

I should know better than to question @The Marquis

It may seem crazy but I think it was a reasonable deal. I mean you can't have trades for teams to stock up for the playoffs right to the end, but you do need to have some way for teams to become cap compliant if players come off LTIR before the playoffs. The Kucherov thing was pretty dodgy and you don't want everybody doing that. Players are okay with it cause they still get paid.

 

[Gniwder]

Nice find! and thanks for sharing.

It always feels so shady the way sports leagues are so secretive about all their rules. I know they want to avoid any and all bad press and try to resolve all issues "in house", but usually the handing of situations makes the organization feel so clandestine that they often appear corrupt.

A little transparency might actually do them some good once in a while

As for being old, you may remember the Krupp contract debacle, but as a Buffalo fan growing up, I actually remember Krupp being drafted

You remember an 11th round pick from 1983? Were you buying some sort of hockey magazine, because newspaper coverage sucked back then especially for late round picks and Euro players.

I remember the Scott Stevens (1982) pick only because he played the next season so he got press coverage being #5 OA. I lived near DC back in those days, not much press coverage for the Caps. Hockey was 3rd page news at best.

Anyways, I responded to your post, but the link was really meant for The Marquis. If he does this stuff for a living, I'd like to see if he can find the documents. I'd at least do a court record search if I still had the ability to do it.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

You remember an 11th round pick from 1983? Were you buying some sort of hockey magazine, because newspaper coverage sucked back then especially for late round picks and Euro players.

I remember the Scott Stevens (1982) pick only because he played the next season so he got press coverage being #5 OA. I lived near DC back in those days, not much press coverage for the Caps. Hockey was 3rd page news at best.

Anyways, I responded to your post, but the link was really meant for The Marquis. If he does this stuff for a living, I'd like to see if he can find the documents. I'd at least do a court record search if I still had the ability to do it.

I know this was not addressed to me but the bolded made me laugh .. I was 3 years old in 1983 and in India. The only hockey I knew for the first 16 years of my life was field hockey ..

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

Man .. I really hope Francis can get some good NCAA prospects to sign ELC's with us. Other teams are already doing it and so far we have not signed a single NCAA prospect. Which surprises me considering we have spots both on AHL and NHL to fill.

 

[Irie]

Not the exact pick, obviously, the drafts weren't televised, but I did have a subscription to the hockey news for over 25 years. Cover price was less than 50 cents when I started and I cancelled when it went over 4 dollars. The local paper actually listed every pick in the transaction section (usually two days after the draft). And I followed all the picks of both the Sabres and the Whale as they entered the league.

Kids are so spoiled with the internet now adays. I used to ride my bike to the bookstore every week to check to see if they had Hockey Digest. For some reason they would only get every other issue it seemed.

It was a different world .

 

[Irie]

I know this was not addressed to me but the bolded made me laugh .. I was 3 years old in 1983 and in India. The only hockey I knew for the first 16 years of my life was field hockey ..

Isn't cricket really huge in India?

Do kids obsessively follow the teams and players there? Or is there another sport?

I have a lot of Canadian friends who tell stories about following the draft/players/teams in Canada, and having dinner table discussion if their parents were fans - it really is a cultural thing.

If you ever post in a Toronto thread, there is a good chance some of the posters you are interacting with are like 10 years old

As a kid that grew up in the states playing organized hockey, (I was 8 when I joined my first league team), I can tell you that my friends and I lived and breathed all things NHL when we were little.

I think for most americans, it was either football or baseball if they played organized sports, and I find it humorous that they are surprised anyone would follow hockey here as a kid, even though they did the same thing with other sports.

 

[Irie]

Man .. I really hope Francis can get some good NCAA prospects to sign ELC's with us. Other teams are already doing it and so far we have not signed a single NCAA prospect. Which surprises me considering we have spots both on AHL and NHL to fill.

Yeah, you'd think that with a lack of farm competition, several NCAA kids would be pretty motivated to sign here, given that they would have a better than normal chance of getting into the league.

I've supported Francis over the expansion draft, because his moves reflected my build model, but most of the moves since, (with the exception of moving out the UFAs), have not really been in line with my expectations.

Now making moves always requires two sides, and making "big win" moves means another GM has to make a "big lose" move, so those should not be expected, but I worry about the actual full picture plan. What is it currently?

 

[Gniwder]

Not the exact pick, obviously, the drafts weren't televised, but I did have a subscription to the hockey news for over 25 years. Cover price was less than 50 cents when I started and I cancelled when it went over 4 dollars. The local paper actually listed every pick in the transaction section (usually two days after the draft). And I followed all the picks of both the Sabres and the Whale as they entered the league.

Kids are so spoiled with the internet now adays. I used to ride my bike to the bookstore every week to check to see if they had Hockey Digest. For some reason they would only get every other issue it seemed.

It was a different world .

LOL, you're old AF.

Yeah, I remember looking at draft picks in the paper, but all very meaningless because there was absolutely no context. You had no way of doing free research back then on 11th round picks, especially when you were in elementary school like me. Not to mention late round picks were mostly meaningless, that's why they shortened the draft. I knew a guy in college that was drafted, the team never even bothered to contact him. (I lived next door to a couple of players for one year, so I met most of the team.)

And yes, kids are indeed spoiled AF, we finally agree on something.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

Isn't cricket really huge in India?

Do kids obsessively follow the teams and players there? Or is there another sport?

I have a lot of Canadian friends who tell stories about following the draft/players/teams in Canada, and having dinner table discussion if their parents were fans - it really is a cultural thing.

If you ever post in a Toronto thread, there is a good chance some of the posters you are interacting with are like 10 years old

As a kid that grew up in the states playing organized hockey, (I was 8 when I joined my first league team), I can tell you that my friends and I lived and breathed all things NHL when we were little.

I think for most americans, it was either football or baseball if they played organized sports, and I find it humorous that they are surprised anyone would follow hockey here as a kid, even though they did the same thing with other sports.

Yeah. For us it was all about cricket growing up. In the 80s and 90s it was primarily international competition since India did not have any cricket leagues. Now it has become even more insane with the IPL (Indian Premier League) which is basically equivalent to any of the EU soccer leagues. Its a fun competition that lasts for around a month with 10 teams playing against each other to make it to the playoffs.

And I can honestly say I do not understand organized sports. I grew up playing soccer and cricket for my school but I would not really call it 'organized sports'. It was more of, 'Hey, you are good at this. You can play' kind of thing. Things in the US are completely different. There is this drive to be the best at things which I think is what makes the US what it is. Things are probably different in India now with more globalization but I still think there is a different attitude and drive between the 2 countries as far as sports goes.