Ron Frances is 5th is all time pts and Kopitar is 48. I don’t think whatever defensive advantage over his career Kopitar may have had can come close to making up the offensive difference. Career is Francis pretty easily.
Now peak is a much closer comparison and might be Kopitar, but again I don’t think it makes up the difference in career.
For me it’s gotta be Francis and I don’t think Kopitar can catch up. Say what you want about counting stats but 5th all time, over ppg in over 1700 games while also plying Selke calibre defense. Francis is one of the all time greats and kopitar is just not there, despite being a great player in his own right.
That's a function of playing most of his career in the 80s and early 90s. Particularly his stint with the Pens. Every bit of Kopitar's offense, he had to do the heavy lifting leading the Kings in scoring what? 15 out of 18 seasons? Kopitar never got to play 2nd or 3rd fiddle behind the likes of Lemieux and Jagr. Ron led his various teams in scoring only 7 times.Ron Frances is 5th is all time pts and Kopitar is 48. I don’t think whatever defensive advantage over his career Kopitar may have had can come close to making up the offensive difference. Career is Francis pretty easily.
Now peak is a much closer comparison and might be Kopitar, but again I don’t think it makes up the difference in career.
For me it’s gotta be Francis and I don’t think Kopitar can catch up. Say what you want about counting stats but 5th all time, over ppg in over 1700 games while also plying Selke calibre defense. Francis is one of the all time greats and kopitar is just not there, despite being a great player in his own right.
He was the best player on Hartford for 9.5 seasons and then the third best forward on Pitts for another 7.5 years where he was doing the heavy lifting on defence (won a Selke) and the two guys in front of him were top 5 if not top 3 players all time (and who were in no way 2-way players like Francis).Kopitar easily. Not that Francis wasn't good and his longevity is impressive, but anyhow mostly a supplementary player that often wasn't a top 3 forward in his team, whereas Anže has been doing the heavy lifting successfully throughout his career.
In Pittsburgh? No. 1990 to 1992 Lemieux, Recchi, Stevens. After that Lemieux, Jágr, Stevens for a few more years. Maybe in the lockout year with Lemieux out completely you can argue for Francis. After that 1996 to 1998. That's 2.5 years rather than 7.5.He was the best player on Hartford for 9.5 seasons and then the third best forward on Pitts for another 7.5 years where he was doing the heavy lifting on defence (won a Selke) and the two guys in front of him were top 5 if not top 3 players all time (and who were in no way 2-way players like Francis).
He became a supplementary player only after rejoining the Canes in his 35+ year old season.
I would be interested to see the era adjusted stats (sorry not sure the source or how to do this). Having watched both players I have the sense Francis was much more dynamic offensively, but it would be good to have a statistical backup.That's a function of playing most of his career in the 80s and early 90s. Particularly his stint with the Pens. Every bit of Kopitar's offense, he had to do the heavy lifting leading the Kings in scoring what? 15 out of 18 seasons? Kopitar never got to play 2nd or 3rd fiddle behind the likes of Lemieux and Jagr. Ron led his various teams in scoring only 7 times.
It’s Francis and it’s not even close. Anyone suggesting otherwise is subscribing to the ‘newer is always better’ ideology.
Quick n dirty H-R adjusted numbers has Francis with 1711 points in 1731 games and Kopitar with 1336 points in 1373 games. So raw offensive output, it's about a wash. What I will stick with though is that I'm pretty sure Kopitar is 3rd all time in most times leading his team in scoring behind only Gretzky and Gordie Howe. Unless he tied Howe in '23. Too lazy to look it up now.I would be interested to see the era adjusted stats (sorry not sure the source or how to do this). Having watched both players I have the sense Francis was much more dynamic offensively, but it would be good to have a statistical backup.
I also get that he benefited from getting from playing with Jagr and Lemieux in terms of offense (especially on the PP) but he was the guy playing against the other teams’ top lines. I remember watching those teams and Francis was great. Totally underrated.
As i said, I can see Kopitar as having a better prime but for me 5th overall in all time scoring is just too special to ignore. Yes he got there by playing more games, but that’s also an achievement that only four other players have done.
In Pittsburgh? No. 1990 to 1992 Lemieux, Recchi, Stevens. After that Lemieux, Jágr, Stevens for a few more years. Maybe in the lockout year with Lemieux out completely you can argue for Francis. After that 1996 to 1998. That's 2.5 years rather than 7.5.
In Hartford he might have been a top 3 forward, but that's not much given they were rather unsuccessful all but one year.
Because he has far more games played for Hartford/Carolina than anyone else (at the time) and it's a punny play off his last name. It's not like he's Ron Stewart and they called him Ronnie Franchise...Massive underrating of Francis contribution to the Pens. He was better than Recchi, Stevens and early Jagr on the Cup challenging teams in the early 90s.. and was their second best player after Jagr once Jagr took over and Lemieux was gone. But most players, including Kopitar, would be.
He was called franchise for a reason.
1990/91Massive underrating of Francis contribution to the Pens. He was better than Recchi, Stevens and early Jagr on the Cup challenging teams in the early 90s..
Lol ok Pens fanIt’s Francis and it’s not even close. Anyone suggesting otherwise is subscribing to the ‘newer is always better’ ideology.
Thanks. So .988 vs .973. Can I ask, does that adjust each year stats individually? Just curious if you know.Quick n dirty H-R adjusted numbers has Francis with 1711 points in 1731 games and Kopitar with 1336 points in 1373 games. So raw offensive output, it's about a wash. What I will stick with though is that I'm pretty sure Kopitar is 3rd all time in most times leading his team in scoring behind only Gretzky and Gordie Howe. Unless he tied Howe in '23. Too lazy to look it up now.
C’mon man. Stevens played with Jagr and Lemieux while Francis played the other teams’ top lines. Anyone who watched that Pens team knows Francis was more important to it than Stevens.1990/91
Stevens 80 40+46=86
Francis 14 2+9=11
1991/92
Stevens 80 54+69=123
Francis 70 21+33=54
1992/93
Stevens 72 55+56=111
Francis 84 24+76=100
1993/94
Stevens 83 41+47=88
Francis 82 27+66=93
Total
Stevens 315 190+218=408 (1.30 ppg) - 1x 1st All-Star, 2x 2nd All-Star, 1x Hart 8th
Francis 250 74+184=258 (1.03 ppg) - 2x Selke 6th