Ron Francis as Kraken GM ~ The Verdict Is In

  • Xenforo Cloud will be upgrading us to version 2.3.5 on March 3rd at 12 AM GMT. This version has increased stability and fixes several bugs. We expect downtime for the duration of the update. The admin team will continue to work on existing issues, templates and upgrade all necessary available addons to minimize impact of this new version. Click Here for Updates
Yeah, they're doing pretty well. Attendance has been great considering the team doesn't win, but Seattle locals love their teams.
Kraken are a couple 3 maybe 4 players away...this team has talent,GMFrancis knows what he's doing and they will add more draft choices at the NHL TDL too which is the smart way to do business...as for those people that comment on Francis in Carolina he did work for some tight wad owners
 
who cares about building a better team, both teams are worthless on the ice and both teams are worthless on the trading block too. they just have to build a prospect pool to get their depth, followed by a tank to get the superstars. seems to be what they're doing. their original roster is completely irrelevant - none of them will be there when they win their first cup, if they win. i'd probably have just picked the cheapest team possible that didn't seem bottom 3 or 5, take all the young guys who may or may not improve with an increased role. take all the free picks from teams who dont want to lose their players, or from players other teams would want to trade for. maybe thats what they did, I didn't pay attention to the specifics.

They didn't take any free picks from teams, that was one of the criticisms I pointed out. Vegas did lots of wheeling and dealing; Seattle did none.

I disagree that their initial roster didn't matter. They've been trying to win since Day 1, spending tons of money in free agency (Grubauer, Schwartz, Burakovsky, Stephenson, Montour, etc.) every off-season. Poor decision making during the Expansion Draft put them in a hole and has established a losing culture, IMO.
 
  • Like
Reactions: biturbo19
Teams WERE prepared for the Seattle expansion draft though.

The Vegas draft really f***ed up a lot of teams that gave away NMC like candy, and were more or less forced protection slots. Deep teams were all f***ed. And instead of giving up 1 core piece, they ended up giving 2 amazing pieces to protect that one piece.

Florida gave Reilly Smith (25 Goals) to Vegas, if they would take away Marchessault (who scored 30 goals). There was absolutely nothing like that in Seattle. Teams were warned beforehand, and basically were aware of the dangers of NMC years leading up to it.

Minny had to give away both Tuch and Haula under similar circumstances.

James Neal and David Perron were picked.

That's a LOT of f***ing goals for an expansion team.
That's 6x 20-30 goal scorers picked up immediately.

Theodore was given away to protect Josh Manson.


There was no robbery this time. Deep teams traded all their shit for picks before Seattle got to them.


They got their #1 goalie in MA Fleury. But they could have taken Binnington too.
Those kinds of goalies weren't exposed to Seattle. They were traded long before they got to the draft.

That's true but overstated, and as time passes it is less and less relevant to the differences between Seattle and Vegas today.

The Kraken did get a lot of 2nd line type players in expansion, just like Vegas did. They played a similar heavy forechecking system. The 2022-23 Kraken team was one of the top goal scoring teams in the league, with 40 goal Jared McCann and 5 other 20+ goal scorers. They took out the defending Cup champs in the 1st round. Now imagine how far they would have gone if you had swapped the struggling Grubauer for Fleury putting up Vezina numbers. If the Kraken had gone further you would have heard more about how McCann and Dunn were incredible steals in expansion. You didn't even mention them but they're better than Rielly Smith was. Joey D'Accord is better than Binnington, by the way, Seattle took D'Accord in expansion.

The central long run challenge of building a team through expansion is that you start out without anyone in your org between the ages of 18 and 23. Vegas was going to be doomed if they just stuck with their initial core, who would have rapidly aged out - what makes them a great team today is that they marketed themselves as a win now at all costs club and continued to attract much of the best talent. Seattle didn't have that boldness, they went for a gradual build and this is what that looks like, with a dearth of prime age players in that 23-27 age group.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Perfect_Drug
GMRF gets some flak for signing UFA Stephenson and to a lesser extent Montour. However, if you look at the UFAs that may become available over the next couple of years, outside the very top there are very meagre pickings. Since the plan is to move on from the expansion picks, signing Stephenson and Montour to steady the ship as the team is about to get much younger makes sense. Stephenson, Montour and the remaining vets (Larsson, Eberle, Schwartz (?)) prevent the Kraken from becoming Buffalo as Gourde, Burakovsky, Bjorkstrand, Grubauer, Tanev, Oleksiak (?), Dunn (?), McCann (?), Schwartz (?) move on over the next couple of seasons.
PLz not Dunner or Bjorkstrand,McCann man the rest I can see though The Schwartz is making a case for a renewal in a years time even at 34 years old
 
Still terrible? They're ahead of the Kraken in the standings.....

They aren't in Arizona anymore for a variety of reasons, how the teams as constructed and built is not one of them.
They are out of a playoff spot, again - and haven't been in the playoffs since before COVID. They're prospect pool is only two or three spots better than Seattle - again, how is Utah/Arizona an example for anything positive? Only the Thrashers tanked a city and a team worse than the Coyotes
 
I don't think that was the plan exactly - there is some disunity in the Kraken FO over how to handle UFA - Friedman also reported last year that Francis wanted to hire Todd McLellan and got overruled or outvoted by others who wanted Bylsma. We know enough to know that some folks are more patient than others while you still have some influential voices - likely still including ownership - that insist on winning now. Perhaps that is changing this year as it has become more apparent that the team doesn't look capable of winning. I think there was a significant feeling last summer that they had to go big in UFA to try and win now, and these happened to be the best players they could get. The plan wasn't to sign veterans merely to act as insulators during a rebuild, though that is what we're going to get.

Either way, they've still been accumulating picks and prospects and I think that part of the story is getting ignored here.

I know it wasn't the full picture, but that's the more or less unintended consequence and probably for the better. You cannot beat reality. For whatever reason there's this air of hysteria in Seattle about the necessity of making the playoffs NOW, despite the fact that the real spine of the team is still growing into the job. Worse, some pieces are still missing (the D prospect pool is far from great).

Next year is a good year to miss the playoffs and stock up on more quality prospects, then by 2026-2027 the drafted kids should really begin to become NHL regulars in depth. The class of 21 is looking strong as do the 22's. 2023 is the year the Kraken made the playoffs and as a result they ended up picking a lot of long-term projects that are now cooking, time will tell what they've got there. 2024 looks strong again.

Looking at the bigger picture in division rival San Jose is building a juggernaut through the draft (paying the price with a lot of pain and suffering). If the Kraken try to cheat that they will end up being spanked (chewed out?) year in year out by the Sharks come playoff time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: majormajor
Is it Francis’s fault the higher picks he had were in drafts without elite talent when he picked? He should do like Vegas, who didnt draft elite players either, and trade for elite players, who are at a lower cost for reasons. That’s how Vegas got Eichel. And he’s now great again.
 
  • Like
Reactions: VivaLasVegas
They are out of a playoff spot, again - and haven't been in the playoffs since before COVID. They're prospect pool is only two or three spots better than Seattle - again, how is Utah/Arizona an example for anything positive? Only the Thrashers tanked a city and a team worse than the Coyotes

This has nothing to do with the city the team was based in.
 
  • Like
Reactions: VivaLasVegas
seattle would be regarded much better if they could resist starting grubauer. 19-12-3 in games d'accord starts vs 5-15-1 in games grubauer starts
 
Never said it did - and neither did Atlanta for the Thrashers - the owners killed both teams and they are shining examples of how not to run a franchise.

Coyotes failed not because of any trades they made but because of external factors. So no, Francis doing what Bill Armstrong did and take on picks for bad contracts wouldn't have sunk the Kraken. Hes just not a very good GM.
 
  • Like
Reactions: biturbo19
People don't seem to realize that they've been rebuilding under the hood. Nine 2nd rounders in the last 3 drafts.

Under the expansion rules, they didn't have access to 18-23 year olds, who are now in that 23-28 year old age range, so the team has a weird gap between young drafted talent and older expansion picks that are now aging out. They're missing the prime pieces.

So obviously they do what teams in that position do, and move assets towards picks and younger players (rebuilding). They're doing it. They have now a very enviable forward prospect pool, along with an enviable 1-2 in young centers to build around in Wright and Beniers.

Not all of their moves have made sense, but from what I gather on HF, people are overplaying their UFA signings and ignoring the actual rebuilding going on underneath.

I think the crux of the issue with what Francis has done with the Kraken revolves around the bolded.

Are Wright and Beniers really an "enviable 1-2 young centers to build around"? Wright is finally finding his footing, but it's still hard to project him on superstar 1C sort of trajectory at this point, and Beniers is in neutral, if not reverse in his development. It usually takes time for guys to really establish themselves as a true #1C...but the lack of that enviable 1-2 punch at Center is really the biggest problem with Seattle's team, and has been since the start. I mean, both guys are effectively being outproduced by Chandler Stephenson...who is an imo, underrated solid player and decent Top-6C with the right offensive-driving wingers. But a true gamebreaker he is not...and neither of Wright or Beniers looks firmly on that track right now either.

Is their prospect pool really that enviable and stocked with potential gamebreaking forwards they lack? There's some promising guys in there for sure. But i don't know that they're so far ahead of many other teams they're chasing and trying to gain ground on, in terms of those young 23U core guys. Most of their top forward prospects project as Wingers as well...including potentially Catton, who is a very talented scorer, but far from a lock to translate as an NHL Center.


Now...this is where i give Francis a little more leeway. Because quite frankly, he's drawn the short stick in a lot of ways, in terms of where the team has picked and what was available in terms of future #1Cs there each year. He swung on guys that made sense...but just haven't totally panned out.

Now, i'm the last one to advocate for a "deliberate tank job"...but you can also argue that his constant spending on UFAs to keep them in mediocrity has hampered their opportunities to chase certain top prospects in the draft. His strategy inherently leans very hard on top picks Beniers and Wright blowing up big, and/or having some other organizational not at the tippy top of the draft type prospects "boom" bigtime. Otherwise it ends up being a very mediocre bubble team at best...collecting a lot more depth of decent talent that probably keeps them right in the mediocre hunt. :dunno:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Voight
seattle would be regarded much better if they could resist starting grubauer. 19-12-3 in games d'accord starts vs 5-15-1 in games grubauer starts
That an odd split considering the records. Maybe just trying to get grubauer back to form in a year they are writing off? There’s no way they can think is a complete coincidence.
 
seattle would be regarded much better if they could resist starting grubauer. 19-12-3 in games d'accord starts vs 5-15-1 in games grubauer starts

That an odd split considering the records. Maybe just trying to get grubauer back to form in a year they are writing off? There’s no way they can think is a complete coincidence.

A little late now, but they did waive Grubauer a few weeks ago. He's gone.


I think the crux of the issue with what Francis has done with the Kraken revolves around the bolded.

Are Wright and Beniers really an "enviable 1-2 young centers to build around"? Wright is finally finding his footing, but it's still hard to project him on superstar 1C sort of trajectory at this point, and Beniers is in neutral, if not reverse in his development. It usually takes time for guys to really establish themselves as a true #1C...but the lack of that enviable 1-2 punch at Center is really the biggest problem with Seattle's team, and has been since the start. I mean, both guys are effectively being outproduced by Chandler Stephenson...who is an imo, underrated solid player and decent Top-6C with the right offensive-driving wingers. But a true gamebreaker he is not...and neither of Wright or Beniers looks firmly on that track right now either.

Is their prospect pool really that enviable and stocked with potential gamebreaking forwards they lack? There's some promising guys in there for sure. But i don't know that they're so far ahead of many other teams they're chasing and trying to gain ground on, in terms of those young 23U core guys. Most of their top forward prospects project as Wingers as well...including potentially Catton, who is a very talented scorer, but far from a lock to translate as an NHL Center.


Now...this is where i give Francis a little more leeway. Because quite frankly, he's drawn the short stick in a lot of ways, in terms of where the team has picked and what was available in terms of future #1Cs there each year. He swung on guys that made sense...but just haven't totally panned out.

Now, i'm the last one to advocate for a "deliberate tank job"...but you can also argue that his constant spending on UFAs to keep them in mediocrity has hampered their opportunities to chase certain top prospects in the draft. His strategy inherently leans very hard on top picks Beniers and Wright blowing up big, and/or having some other organizational not at the tippy top of the draft type prospects "boom" bigtime. Otherwise it ends up being a very mediocre bubble team at best...collecting a lot more depth of decent talent that probably keeps them right in the mediocre hunt. :dunno:

There aren't a lot of centers you'd rather have from those drafts, and there aren't a lot of clubs with better U-23 centers. It's just early.

And I don't think anyone should care whether Catton plays at center or wing, or that most of their best prospects are wingers. They have the perfect situation for those players to fit in around Beniers and Wright. Catton would be perfect for such a role.

Maybe they need to take a page out of the Vegas textbook and trade Beniers/wright for a legitimate superstar talent.

Vegas never traded a young player with that type of value.

Suzuki was just a prospect, and had a bit lower pedigree than them. If Seattle trades Catton and like the next 5-10 best young pieces for win now players, that would be a Vegas type of play. You can't fake it though, Vegas got there by being generally win at all costs. Seattle would need a new GM for that, someone a little crazier.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CLW and Crow
There aren't a lot of centers you'd rather have from those drafts, and there aren't a lot of clubs with better U-23 centers. It's just early.

And I don't think anyone should care whether Catton plays at center or wing, or that most of their best prospects are wingers. They have the perfect situation for those players to fit in around Beniers and Wright. Catton would be perfect for such a role.

Yeah. The way the draft dice have rolled for the Kraken just hasn't been ideal. That's part of where i give Francis a little bit more leniency, because it is really difficult to say that he "drafted wrong" with Beniers/Wright. They represented the best bets available at their picks, to actually fill the glaring hole in that team. But at the end of the day, i think that's still a problem if they don't take very substantial steps forward (and i'm not confident they have that ceiling in them)...as well as having the rest of these top winger prospects really pan out in a huge way (which is...arguably naively optimistic). I think you're holding Beniers + Wright in much higher esteem than i do at this point though.

That is where, if you really believe that's going to be a championship caliber 1-2 punch at Center, then it doesn't really matter that the rest of the top prospects are likely wingers. On the other hand, if you're not sold on that being a championship duo at Center...you still badly need a guy who can top the depth chart as a bonafide #1C...so a collection of wingers does less to build that team into a serious contender.


The other part of it is that, while it's hard to fault Francis on those specific draft choices...i think there are some concerns about the overall blueprint. Especially when you look at his prior track record elsewhere...of building up a lot of mediocrity and "depth". Again this year, all the decent-solid-mediocre veterans he's committed to are likely to have the Kraken picking ~5th-10th again. Especially if other teams get more aggressive in their deadline "sell-off" and sink below them down the stretch to put them more toward 10th. We'll see what Francis does at this deadline, but in previous years, it feels like he's more content to just hang onto all his collected "depth" of veteran mid.

That's where the criticism comes in. The thousand yard overview trajectory is somewhat questionable. If just continuing to collect solid-good players and lots of wingers, and bolster it with a bunch of mediocre-okay veterans at slightly cushy salaries, is really going to build out to more than just a mediocre "bubble team" overall. :dunno:
 
For me, I just find it strange how Seattle seemed to really focus on valuing flexibility for the expansion draft (choosing to draft low salary/term guys over more established players available) just to sign a bunch of high priced UFA deals in the summer.t don't understand the immediately shifting your philosophy
 
  • Like
Reactions: Oryxo
Yeah. The way the draft dice have rolled for the Kraken just hasn't been ideal. That's part of where i give Francis a little bit more leniency, because it is really difficult to say that he "drafted wrong" with Beniers/Wright. They represented the best bets available at their picks, to actually fill the glaring hole in that team. But at the end of the day, i think that's still a problem if they don't take very substantial steps forward (and i'm not confident they have that ceiling in them)...as well as having the rest of these top winger prospects really pan out in a huge way (which is...arguably naively optimistic). I think you're holding Beniers + Wright in much higher esteem than i do at this point though.

That is where, if you really believe that's going to be a championship caliber 1-2 punch at Center, then it doesn't really matter that the rest of the top prospects are likely wingers. On the other hand, if you're not sold on that being a championship duo at Center...you still badly need a guy who can top the depth chart as a bonafide #1C...so a collection of wingers does less to build that team into a serious contender.


The other part of it is that, while it's hard to fault Francis on those specific draft choices...i think there are some concerns about the overall blueprint. Especially when you look at his prior track record elsewhere...of building up a lot of mediocrity and "depth". Again this year, all the decent-solid-mediocre veterans he's committed to are likely to have the Kraken picking ~5th-10th again. Especially if other teams get more aggressive in their deadline "sell-off" and sink below them down the stretch to put them more toward 10th. We'll see what Francis does at this deadline, but in previous years, it feels like he's more content to just hang onto all his collected "depth" of veteran mid.

That's where the criticism comes in. The thousand yard overview trajectory is somewhat questionable. If just continuing to collect solid-good players and lots of wingers, and bolster it with a bunch of mediocre-okay veterans at slightly cushy salaries, is really going to build out to more than just a mediocre "bubble team" overall. :dunno:

- I'm not holding Beniers and Wright in extremely high esteem, I don't see them being superstars, if that's what you're thinking. When I say there aren't a lot of better U23 centers I mean it literally, centers that age are mostly not very good. But for a club doing a stealth rebuild (without anyone seeming to notice), they've put themselves in a better long term position than most clubs.

- I'm not making firm bets on any particular prospect to be a star winger, I'm betting the field with Kraken prospects. They have the deepest group of good winger prospects (likely including Catton as a winger) and it's very likely they'll get some to pop.

- It's not clear that it's Francis himself who insists that Seattle present itself as a win-now club. Ownership might be driving the bus on that one. Friedman has reported on divisions within the FO - including that Francis wanted McLellan over Bylsma.

- They've been sellers (9 2nd rounders in the last 3 drafts). I would like them to sell more, but let's not act like there's any silver bullet for clubs doing rebuilds. The clubs blowing it up might not make it out of the hole.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bleedgreen
I never understand why people criticize a GM for not acquiring star level players any other way than getting lucky at the draft.

How many star players get traded with existing term or are still young and team controlled for a few years? Eichel? Kind of Tkachuk (who really picked his own destination as a ufa in the near future). Who else? Even if there was five how do you blame the remaining gm’s for not pulling that off? It’s like winning the cup.

I never understand how people criticize a gm like RF or Yzerman….or whoever the herd is criticizing for not doing a good job at this. Did your team pull one of those off? If you’re not Vegas or Fla….

Star players often play a big role in where they go, and Seattle is amongst a big group of teams that arent a huge attraction to the current generation.

The Kraken have a pretty good prospect pool coming along, with some solid young players already there.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CLW
More like threatening to take players unless a massive price was paid and then not taking them when teams refused. If you didn't want them you were better off caving and getting any draft picks or assets you could. They made 0 deals. Unacceptable levels of mismanagement there.

Also, there were several players like Taransenko, Henrique, Duchene, etc and several other legitimate NHLers and instead passed on them. Even if they didn't want these players, 2/3 return first round picks in trade within the next few seasons.

They could have had a better team today and tomorrow. Instead like I mentioned, they chose cap space which is fine I guess except they did nothing positive with it.
They chose Dunn over Tarasenko, which is and was a slam dunk.

You think they should have chosen Henrique at 31yo over 24yo Haydn Fleury who was still a 7th overall draft pick? Henrique has never been traded for anything remotely close to a 1st round pick. There really weren't any good options on Anaheim. The best might've been Stolarz who was a good back up, but their options were ALL shit.

Jarnkrok was a solid pick and they got a 2nd, 3rd, and 7th for him that year. That's not a bad rate at all. That was also the year Duchene had his season cut short again for the 2nd time in 3 years and he wasn't close to a PPG player like he is/was since then. He was also, I might add, literally bought out from his contract the next year, But sure, tell us how he was a better pick at 8mx7 until he was freaking 39 lmao.
 
I thought his Expansion Draft selections were rough.

Obviously, there were some big hits (Borgen, Daccord, Dunn, Geekie, McCann, etc). But the decision by Francis not to make any trades prior to the draft, coupled with a pointless game of chicken with Montreal regarding Carey Price, hurt the Kraken.

Even that aside, I think a ton of obvious value was left on the board. Ignoring pending UFAs and hindsight players (i.e. Drouin, Ingram, Mikkola, Stolarz, Walman, etc.), I argue you could build a better team with the "leftovers" than the one Francis drafted:

LWCRW
Ondrej Palat [Yanni Gourde]Matt Duchene [Calle Jarnkrok]Frank Vatrano [Chris Driedger]
Evgeni Dadonov [Joey Daccord]J.T. Compher [Jonas Donskoi]Nino Niederreiter [Morgan Geekie]
Alex Kerfoot [Jared McCann]Max Domi [Gavin Bayreuther]Vladimir Tarasenko [Vince Dunn]
Vlad Namestikov [Dennis Cholowski]Nick Bjugstad [Carson Soucy]Christian Fischer [Tyler Pitlick]
LDRD
Marcus Pettersson [Brandon Tanev]Dylan DeMelo [Mason Appleton]
Nikita Zadorov [John Quenneville]Shayne Gostisbehere [Carsen Twarynski]
Olli Maatta [Kurtis MacDermid]Nick Jensen [Vitek Vanacek]
G
Mike Smith [Adam Larsson]
Scott Wedgewood [Nathan Bastian]

Great team? No.
Heinous goaltending? Yes, but not worse than Grubauer.
Better than what Francis drafted (despite handicap of not picking Daccord/Dunn/McCann/etc.)? IMO, yes.
Fun exercise? Hell yes.
Did you really just come in here and say that this team is better than what we have? It's a million times worse. This team is literally just the aging vets team. How do you replace your whole team in 3 years when they all retire or fall off a cliff?

Domi (as much as I love him) has bounced around multiple clubs for a reason. Duchene was literally bought out after the expansion draft. Teams wanted them to take bad contracts off their hands. This team isn't winning a playoff round, probably doesn't even make the playoffs. And who is going to trade draft picks for these guys?

Yes you have to take risks (like Haydn Fleury? Dunn? McCann? Cholowski?) and Francis has never been good at doing that, but you're drinking the kool-aid if you think that he could have had an objectively better roster at the time that would have changed anything. Honestly it's impressive that Francis even hit on as many players as he did with how shit the pool was.

And I don't even think Francis is good, but he's better than people giving him credit. Seattles issues have mostly come from ownership, but it's still year 4 of the rebuild. Expecting a team to be good after 4 years of starting from scratch is just laughable.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bleedgreen and CLW
And he is guilty of being a bust as a GM, as predicted by many here including me. Every year, the Kraken just trudge forth in a steady mediocrity, got no future, have no past.

I mean this is year 3? or is it 4?

Regardless of course they have no past.

I do agree though he's not a great GM.
 
Did you really just come in here and say that this team is better than what we have? It's a million times worse. This team is literally just the aging vets team. How do you replace your whole team in 3 years when they all retire or fall off a cliff?

Domi (as much as I love him) has bounced around multiple clubs for a reason. Duchene was literally bought out after the expansion draft. Teams wanted them to take bad contracts off their hands. This team isn't winning a playoff round, probably doesn't even make the playoffs. And who is going to trade draft picks for these guys?

Yes you have to take risks (like Haydn Fleury? Dunn? McCann? Cholowski?) and Francis has never been good at doing that, but you're drinking the kool-aid if you think that he could have had an objectively better roster at the time that would have changed anything. Honestly it's impressive that Francis even hit on as many players as he did with how shit the pool was.

And I don't even think Francis is good, but he's better than people giving him credit. Seattles issues have mostly come from ownership, but it's still year 4 of the rebuild. Expecting a team to be good after 4 years of starting from scratch is just laughable.

No, that's not it. And I'm not saying that was the team they should've drafted.

What I'm saying is there was so much talent left over in the draft that I could cobble together a team that, IMO, in 2022 would've been better than the 27 win roster they had at the time.

The counterargument might be that it wouldn't matter today, but I disagree. A lot of the leftover players are still marquee/name players today and some of them were obvious picks at the time (i.e. Zadorov over Quenneville).
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad