Ron Francis as Kraken GM ~ The Verdict Is In

[RayMartyniukTotems]

Yeah, they're doing pretty well. Attendance has been great considering the team doesn't win, but Seattle locals love their teams.

Kraken are a couple 3 maybe 4 players away...this team has talent,GMFrancis knows what he's doing and they will add more draft choices at the NHL TDL too which is the smart way to do business...as for those people that comment on Francis in Carolina he did work for some tight wad owners

 

[shadow1]

who cares about building a better team, both teams are worthless on the ice and both teams are worthless on the trading block too. they just have to build a prospect pool to get their depth, followed by a tank to get the superstars. seems to be what they're doing. their original roster is completely irrelevant - none of them will be there when they win their first cup, if they win. i'd probably have just picked the cheapest team possible that didn't seem bottom 3 or 5, take all the young guys who may or may not improve with an increased role. take all the free picks from teams who dont want to lose their players, or from players other teams would want to trade for. maybe thats what they did, I didn't pay attention to the specifics.

They didn't take any free picks from teams, that was one of the criticisms I pointed out. Vegas did lots of wheeling and dealing; Seattle did none.

I disagree that their initial roster didn't matter. They've been trying to win since Day 1, spending tons of money in free agency (Grubauer, Schwartz, Burakovsky, Stephenson, Montour, etc.) every off-season. Poor decision making during the Expansion Draft put them in a hole and has established a losing culture, IMO.

 

[majormajor]

Teams WERE prepared for the Seattle expansion draft though.

The Vegas draft really f***ed up a lot of teams that gave away NMC like candy, and were more or less forced protection slots. Deep teams were all f***ed. And instead of giving up 1 core piece, they ended up giving 2 amazing pieces to protect that one piece.

Florida gave Reilly Smith (25 Goals) to Vegas, if they would take away Marchessault (who scored 30 goals). There was absolutely nothing like that in Seattle. Teams were warned beforehand, and basically were aware of the dangers of NMC years leading up to it.

Minny had to give away both Tuch and Haula under similar circumstances.

James Neal and David Perron were picked.

That's a LOT of f***ing goals for an expansion team.
That's 6x 20-30 goal scorers picked up immediately.

Theodore was given away to protect Josh Manson.


There was no robbery this time. Deep teams traded all their shit for picks before Seattle got to them.


They got their #1 goalie in MA Fleury. But they could have taken Binnington too.
Those kinds of goalies weren't exposed to Seattle. They were traded long before they got to the draft.

That's true but overstated, and as time passes it is less and less relevant to the differences between Seattle and Vegas today.

The Kraken did get a lot of 2nd line type players in expansion, just like Vegas did. They played a similar heavy forechecking system. The 2022-23 Kraken team was one of the top goal scoring teams in the league, with 40 goal Jared McCann and 5 other 20+ goal scorers. They took out the defending Cup champs in the 1st round. Now imagine how far they would have gone if you had swapped the struggling Grubauer for Fleury putting up Vezina numbers. If the Kraken had gone further you would have heard more about how McCann and Dunn were incredible steals in expansion. You didn't even mention them but they're better than Rielly Smith was. Joey D'Accord is better than Binnington, by the way, Seattle took D'Accord in expansion.

The central long run challenge of building a team through expansion is that you start out without anyone in your org between the ages of 18 and 23. Vegas was going to be doomed if they just stuck with their initial core, who would have rapidly aged out - what makes them a great team today is that they marketed themselves as a win now at all costs club and continued to attract much of the best talent. Seattle didn't have that boldness, they went for a gradual build and this is what that looks like, with a dearth of prime age players in that 23-27 age group.

 

[RayMartyniukTotems]

GMRF gets some flak for signing UFA Stephenson and to a lesser extent Montour. However, if you look at the UFAs that may become available over the next couple of years, outside the very top there are very meagre pickings. Since the plan is to move on from the expansion picks, signing Stephenson and Montour to steady the ship as the team is about to get much younger makes sense. Stephenson, Montour and the remaining vets (Larsson, Eberle, Schwartz (?)) prevent the Kraken from becoming Buffalo as Gourde, Burakovsky, Bjorkstrand, Grubauer, Tanev, Oleksiak (?), Dunn (?), McCann (?), Schwartz (?) move on over the next couple of seasons.

PLz not Dunner or Bjorkstrand,McCann man the rest I can see though The Schwartz is making a case for a renewal in a years time even at 34 years old

 

[ONO94]

Still terrible? They're ahead of the Kraken in the standings.....

They aren't in Arizona anymore for a variety of reasons, how the teams as constructed and built is not one of them.

They are out of a playoff spot, again - and haven't been in the playoffs since before COVID. They're prospect pool is only two or three spots better than Seattle - again, how is Utah/Arizona an example for anything positive? Only the Thrashers tanked a city and a team worse than the Coyotes

 

[CLW]

I don't think that was the plan exactly - there is some disunity in the Kraken FO over how to handle UFA - Friedman also reported last year that Francis wanted to hire Todd McLellan and got overruled or outvoted by others who wanted Bylsma. We know enough to know that some folks are more patient than others while you still have some influential voices - likely still including ownership - that insist on winning now. Perhaps that is changing this year as it has become more apparent that the team doesn't look capable of winning. I think there was a significant feeling last summer that they had to go big in UFA to try and win now, and these happened to be the best players they could get. The plan wasn't to sign veterans merely to act as insulators during a rebuild, though that is what we're going to get.

Either way, they've still been accumulating picks and prospects and I think that part of the story is getting ignored here.

I know it wasn't the full picture, but that's the more or less unintended consequence and probably for the better. You cannot beat reality. For whatever reason there's this air of hysteria in Seattle about the necessity of making the playoffs NOW, despite the fact that the real spine of the team is still growing into the job. Worse, some pieces are still missing (the D prospect pool is far from great).

Next year is a good year to miss the playoffs and stock up on more quality prospects, then by 2026-2027 the drafted kids should really begin to become NHL regulars in depth. The class of 21 is looking strong as do the 22's. 2023 is the year the Kraken made the playoffs and as a result they ended up picking a lot of long-term projects that are now cooking, time will tell what they've got there. 2024 looks strong again.

Looking at the bigger picture in division rival San Jose is building a juggernaut through the draft (paying the price with a lot of pain and suffering). If the Kraken try to cheat that they will end up being spanked (chewed out?) year in year out by the Sharks come playoff time.

 

[Fatass]

Is it Francis’s fault the higher picks he had were in drafts without elite talent when he picked? He should do like Vegas, who didnt draft elite players either, and trade for elite players, who are at a lower cost for reasons. That’s how Vegas got Eichel. And he’s now great again.

 

[Voight]

They are out of a playoff spot, again - and haven't been in the playoffs since before COVID. They're prospect pool is only two or three spots better than Seattle - again, how is Utah/Arizona an example for anything positive? Only the Thrashers tanked a city and a team worse than the Coyotes

This has nothing to do with the city the team was based in.

 

[ONO94]

This has nothing to do with the city the team was based in.

Never said it did - and neither did Atlanta for the Thrashers - the owners killed both teams and they are shining examples of how not to run a franchise.

 

[credulous]

seattle would be regarded much better if they could resist starting grubauer. 19-12-3 in games d'accord starts vs 5-15-1 in games grubauer starts

 

[Voight]

Never said it did - and neither did Atlanta for the Thrashers - the owners killed both teams and they are shining examples of how not to run a franchise.

Coyotes failed not because of any trades they made but because of external factors. So no, Francis doing what Bill Armstrong did and take on picks for bad contracts wouldn't have sunk the Kraken. Hes just not a very good GM.

 

[ElLeetch]

To an extent, yes. Francis also made some really baffling picks if I recall. Vegas took a lot of gambles on players and hit on pretty much all of them whereas Seattle took almost none. It's not surprising they ended up with a mid roster.

ha

 

[biturbo19]

People don't seem to realize that they've been rebuilding under the hood. Nine 2nd rounders in the last 3 drafts.

Under the expansion rules, they didn't have access to 18-23 year olds, who are now in that 23-28 year old age range, so the team has a weird gap between young drafted talent and older expansion picks that are now aging out. They're missing the prime pieces.

So obviously they do what teams in that position do, and move assets towards picks and younger players (rebuilding). They're doing it. They have now a very enviable forward prospect pool, along with an enviable 1-2 in young centers to build around in Wright and Beniers.

Not all of their moves have made sense, but from what I gather on HF, people are overplaying their UFA signings and ignoring the actual rebuilding going on underneath.

I think the crux of the issue with what Francis has done with the Kraken revolves around the bolded.

Are Wright and Beniers really an "enviable 1-2 young centers to build around"? Wright is finally finding his footing, but it's still hard to project him on superstar 1C sort of trajectory at this point, and Beniers is in neutral, if not reverse in his development. It usually takes time for guys to really establish themselves as a true #1C...but the lack of that enviable 1-2 punch at Center is really the biggest problem with Seattle's team, and has been since the start. I mean, both guys are effectively being outproduced by Chandler Stephenson...who is an imo, underrated solid player and decent Top-6C with the right offensive-driving wingers. But a true gamebreaker he is not...and neither of Wright or Beniers looks firmly on that track right now either.

Is their prospect pool really that enviable and stocked with potential gamebreaking forwards they lack? There's some promising guys in there for sure. But i don't know that they're so far ahead of many other teams they're chasing and trying to gain ground on, in terms of those young 23U core guys. Most of their top forward prospects project as Wingers as well...including potentially Catton, who is a very talented scorer, but far from a lock to translate as an NHL Center.


Now...this is where i give Francis a little more leeway. Because quite frankly, he's drawn the short stick in a lot of ways, in terms of where the team has picked and what was available in terms of future #1Cs there each year. He swung on guys that made sense...but just haven't totally panned out.

Now, i'm the last one to advocate for a "deliberate tank job"...but you can also argue that his constant spending on UFAs to keep them in mediocrity has hampered their opportunities to chase certain top prospects in the draft. His strategy inherently leans very hard on top picks Beniers and Wright blowing up big, and/or having some other organizational not at the tippy top of the draft type prospects "boom" bigtime. Otherwise it ends up being a very mediocre bubble team at best...collecting a lot more depth of decent talent that probably keeps them right in the mediocre hunt.

 

[chaser17]

Maybe they need to take a page out of the Vegas textbook and trade Beniers/wright for a legitimate superstar talent.

 

[Crow]

seattle would be regarded much better if they could resist starting grubauer. 19-12-3 in games d'accord starts vs 5-15-1 in games grubauer starts

That an odd split considering the records. Maybe just trying to get grubauer back to form in a year they are writing off? There’s no way they can think is a complete coincidence.

 

[majormajor]

seattle would be regarded much better if they could resist starting grubauer. 19-12-3 in games d'accord starts vs 5-15-1 in games grubauer starts

That an odd split considering the records. Maybe just trying to get grubauer back to form in a year they are writing off? There’s no way they can think is a complete coincidence.

A little late now, but they did waive Grubauer a few weeks ago. He's gone.

I think the crux of the issue with what Francis has done with the Kraken revolves around the bolded.

Are Wright and Beniers really an "enviable 1-2 young centers to build around"? Wright is finally finding his footing, but it's still hard to project him on superstar 1C sort of trajectory at this point, and Beniers is in neutral, if not reverse in his development. It usually takes time for guys to really establish themselves as a true #1C...but the lack of that enviable 1-2 punch at Center is really the biggest problem with Seattle's team, and has been since the start. I mean, both guys are effectively being outproduced by Chandler Stephenson...who is an imo, underrated solid player and decent Top-6C with the right offensive-driving wingers. But a true gamebreaker he is not...and neither of Wright or Beniers looks firmly on that track right now either.

Is their prospect pool really that enviable and stocked with potential gamebreaking forwards they lack? There's some promising guys in there for sure. But i don't know that they're so far ahead of many other teams they're chasing and trying to gain ground on, in terms of those young 23U core guys. Most of their top forward prospects project as Wingers as well...including potentially Catton, who is a very talented scorer, but far from a lock to translate as an NHL Center.


Now...this is where i give Francis a little more leeway. Because quite frankly, he's drawn the short stick in a lot of ways, in terms of where the team has picked and what was available in terms of future #1Cs there each year. He swung on guys that made sense...but just haven't totally panned out.

Now, i'm the last one to advocate for a "deliberate tank job"...but you can also argue that his constant spending on UFAs to keep them in mediocrity has hampered their opportunities to chase certain top prospects in the draft. His strategy inherently leans very hard on top picks Beniers and Wright blowing up big, and/or having some other organizational not at the tippy top of the draft type prospects "boom" bigtime. Otherwise it ends up being a very mediocre bubble team at best...collecting a lot more depth of decent talent that probably keeps them right in the mediocre hunt.

There aren't a lot of centers you'd rather have from those drafts, and there aren't a lot of clubs with better U-23 centers. It's just early.

And I don't think anyone should care whether Catton plays at center or wing, or that most of their best prospects are wingers. They have the perfect situation for those players to fit in around Beniers and Wright. Catton would be perfect for such a role.

Maybe they need to take a page out of the Vegas textbook and trade Beniers/wright for a legitimate superstar talent.

Vegas never traded a young player with that type of value.

Suzuki was just a prospect, and had a bit lower pedigree than them. If Seattle trades Catton and like the next 5-10 best young pieces for win now players, that would be a Vegas type of play. You can't fake it though, Vegas got there by being generally win at all costs. Seattle would need a new GM for that, someone a little crazier.