Robertson should stay up permanently

[Racer88]

Not sure he’s proven he’s an everyday NHL player yet.

Not sure he has had a chance yet. A few games here and there do nothing

 

[francis246]

Josh Leivo 2.0

He’s a lot better than Josh Leivo. Not even the same type of player

 

[saffronleaf]

A proven NHL player doesn't get you on the Leafs.
I have a tough time getting excited by him. He is ok but wont move the needle much and his upside potential likely doesn't get him a spot on the top 6 of this team anytime soon. If Dubas was smart, he would be looking for a Dman right now and gathering a package of players including Robertson for a trade. Throw Holl into the mix and we also can clean up the roster a bit.

idk with what dubas has done to the depth of this team it should be pretty easy to get into the bottom six. and top six isn't even that competitive given we're playing stone hands kerfoot there. but yea, maybe he needs more time.

watching him i felt like he had finally put it together this season. not as chaotic, not falling down as much, some poise with the puck, good hustle.

 

[Marmoset]

Agreed. Also, this requires the Leafs to be brutally honest in what they want out of Nick Robertson and to be fair with the player by giving them a step by step breakdown of what you want, how they can give that to you and what is the path forward?

Are you trying to harness cheap ELC offense in the short term and want to see a, b, c out of Robertson plus x stats line? How many games and minutes would you need to commit to this project? Are you willing to accept immature 5 on 5 play?

Are you trying to utilize him in a bottom 6 role where he needs to show d, e, f before you trust him in a more prime offensive role? Again, what does the utilization look like in games and minutes? What do you need from him shift to shift?

For me, it goes back to drafting and developing projectible types of players. I appreciate that Holmberg is being given an audition because he's a depth center, but if Robertson is a big shot, water bug scorer, he can't be judged as if he's being auditioned for the same role as Holmberg. Finally, if your program is already stacked with top 6 forwards at an elite level, maybe you need to be more strategic in not drafting and developing guys who will hit this glass ceiling and can't help you.

I agree with your thoughts on Robertson and his role. When a young player is scratched for an extended period, I believe there is often a gap between what the coach wants out of a player and what management thinks the player can or should be. As you've laid out, the team needs to figure out what the expectations are, and if Robertson isn't able to meet that right now then he should be with the Marlies.

I disagree with your last paragraph about the draft. Whatever your needs are when you conduct a draft, by the time those players are developed enough to be knocking on the door of the NHL your needs may have changed drastically. Besides, we currently have space in our top 6 for someone exactly like what we hope Robertson can be. Unfortunately he hasn't shown enough or isn't getting the opportunity.

 

[Tak7]

They need a to make a firmer decision with him. Either that he's not ready and sent down to the Marlies, or accept that hes going to have warts in his game but keep him in the lineup to get playing time. Scratching him is the worst of both worlds other than allowing him to practice with the team

They did make a firm decision - Keefe has referenced this tough stretch to close out this month a few times when talking about Robertson; the plan was always to get him into a few of these games, and then re-evaluate at the end of this stretch.

I know that for most, he should either be full time in the lineup or sent down, and it feels like that will ultimately be a decision they're prepared to make by the beginning of next month. But I also think there's value in having this setup as a meritocracy, and so far, Robertson has not looked like a full time NHLer or one of this team's best 12 forwards imho

 

[Leafs87]

His main argument is that if you create a depth chart he is certainly a top 12 forward on this team, so him being in and out while someone like Engvall being almost consistently in is not right

 

[Stephen]

I agree with your thoughts on Robertson and his role. When a young player is scratched for an extended period, I believe there is often a gap between what the coach wants out of a player and what management thinks the player can or should be. As you've laid out, the team needs to figure out what the expectations are, and if Robertson isn't able to meet that right now then he should be with the Marlies.

I disagree with your last paragraph about the draft. Whatever your needs are when you conduct a draft, by the time those players are developed enough to be knocking on the door of the NHL your needs may have changed drastically. Besides, we currently have space in our top 6 for someone exactly like what we hope Robertson can be. Unfortunately he hasn't shown enough or isn't getting the opportunity.

I'm just of the belief that most teams can get by without a 5'9" and under star offensive producer, and that unless you have a truly elite example of that type of player, it's going to be very hard to fit them into the team puzzle, so does it make sense to try and develop many of them simultaneously at different positions. If you're not hitting that Theo Fleury, Marty St Louis, Johnny Gaudreau, Brad Marchand, Brayden Point, Alex DeBrincat level do you really need a Tyler Ennis?

 

[Tak7]

A proven NHL player doesn't get you on the Leafs.
I have a tough time getting excited by him. He is ok but wont move the needle much and his upside potential likely doesn't get him a spot on the top 6 of this team anytime soon. If Dubas was smart, he would be looking for a Dman right now and gathering a package of players including Robertson for a trade. Throw Holl into the mix and we also can clean up the roster a bit.

Fully agree with this - I see someone who has great wheels and a really good release on his shot. Other than that.... there's not much else. He's really soft / undersized in the corners, isn't great with puck battles, and doesn't seem to have particularly high hockey IQ.

He's also only 21. I find it odd that so many people need an answer right away about what's going to happen with someone who is only 21, and hasn't shown at any point yet that he's a consistent full time NHLer.

 

[Marmoset]

I'm just of the belief that most teams can get by without a 5'9" and under star offensive producer, and that unless you have a truly elite example of that type of player, it's going to be very hard to fit them into the team puzzle, so does it make sense to try and develop many of them simultaneously at different positions. If you're not hitting that Theo Fleury, Marty St Louis, Johnny Gaudreau, Brad Marchand, Brayden Point, Alex DeBrincat level do you really need a Tyler Ennis?

I basically agree with you here. There's nothing wrong with drafting a 5'9" offensive player. There is a problem with drafting a ton of them to the exclusion of other types of prospects.

The Leafs have had some fairly strong biases in their drafting which I haven't liked. First it was the Hunter era giants, then the Dubas era 5'9" skilled players. I don't think you should have a 'type' like this when it comes to the draft.

 

[Stephen]

I basically agree with you here. There's nothing wrong with drafting a 5'9" offensive player. There is a problem with drafting a ton of them to the exclusion of other types of prospects.

The Leafs have had some fairly strong biases in their drafting which I haven't liked. First it was the Hunter era giants, then the Dubas era 5'9" skilled players. I don't think you should have a 'type' like this when it comes to the draft.

Yeah, all I ask for is more diversity in the draft classes. You can kind of see how the down stream impact looks like even if things go really well and we suddenly have a rookie crop of Voit, Abruzzese, Robertson, Hollowell, Der-Arguchitsev all up at the same time, playing behind Sandin and Kerfoot, etc. who need to provide support for skilled guys like Marner and Nylander at the top. The mix is just crazy and you can see where Keefe is struggling to plug them into the lineup.

 

[Larcos_Unal]

Since we have seemingly unlimited resources, can we not go out and hire all of Tampa's scouts and development staff? I mean, they keep churning draft picks and plugging holes almost automatically...it's really impressive.

Yeah, all I ask for is more diversity in the draft classes. You can kind of see how the down stream impact looks like even if things go really well and we suddenly have a rookie crop of Voit, Abruzzese, Robertson, Hollowell, Der-Arguchitsev all up at the same time, playing behind Sandin and Kerfoot, etc. who need to provide support for skilled guys like Marner and Nylander at the top. The mix is just crazy and you can see where Keefe is struggling to plug them into the lineup.

Brodie and Muzzin went down, who do we have that can step up??
Hollowell and Mete lmao

If you draft nothing but smurfs, don't complain when your stars get abused and you get manhandled in the playoffs. By the way, the solution is not signing a has-been like Simmonds, you need to draft and develop what Simmonds was not dumpster dive for a broken down version.

 

[Racer88]

Since we have seemingly unlimited resources, can we not go out and hire all of Tampa's scouts and development staff? I mean, they keep churning draft picks and plugging holes almost automatically...it's really impressive.


Brodie and Muzzin went down, who do we have that can step up??
Hollowell and Mete lmao

If you draft nothing but smurfs, don't complain when your stars get abused and you get manhandled in the playoffs. By the way, the solution is not signing a has-been like Simmonds, you need to draft and develop what Simmonds was not dumpster dive for a broken down version.

All the scouts and development staff in the world will not make a difference when the guy in charge thinks he knows better then everyone else how to build a team

 

[Griffin76]

I'll admit it right off the bat. I'm not a fan. I think he's too small. Easily knocked off the puck. Easily knocked down. Out of control a lot trying to get the puck and knocking himself down in the process. Maybe he needs to go down and become a bit more of a grinder to work on his battles, strength and balance. He does have a good motor and a great shot. Just send him down and get him to work on his deficiencies. There's no shame in being sent down if it's needed. And I think it's needed unless he can learn to hide in the offensive zone, pop into a shooting position and use that shot the way Caufield does it. Become one dimensional or a complete player. Up to him.

 

[fancy lad]

I would not. Kerfoot has vastly more defensive utility. And Robertson isn't really good enough to play in offensive spots. He doesn't have a place on the team right now.

Robertson would bring more to the table offensively than what Kerfoot is bringing. 100% he would. Kerfoot is a 3rd line player AT BEST. Case in point watch the games. He has decent speed, but lacks the hands or instinct to bring anything to the top 2 lines. HE can kind of keep up, but he can't. Robertson is way better suited to that role and would be an upgrade over #15. I swear Kerfoot is the dullest swiss army knife player.

I get that he is more consistant defensively, but i really believe that is something you can coach and teach a young player.


One thing is sure, the team is really messing up the kid's developement.

 

[Stephen]

Robertson would bring more to the table offensively than what Kerfoot is bringing. 100% he would. Kerfoot is a 3rd line player AT BEST. Case in point watch the games. He has decent speed, but lacks the hands or instinct to bring anything to the top 2 lines. HE can kind of keep up, but he can't. Robertson is way better suited to that role and would be an upgrade over #15. I swear Kerfoot is the dullest swiss army knife player.

I get that he is more consistant defensively, but i really believe that is something you can coach and teach a young player.


One thing is sure, the team is really messing up the kid's developement.

Robertson could squeeze out more offense than Kerfoot. But I think the issue is aside from the little super hero spurts he tries to squeeze out of his game he just isn’t that competitive 5 on 5. It’s not even a strictly defensive issue. It’s just he doesn’t do that much. But they do have to commit to either some growing pains or have a cold hard assessment of where they think this kid can get to. As an organization they need to either commit to the hard work of bringing Robertson up to the level they think he should be at. If they’re just in it for cheap and easy offense I don’t think it will come that easily.

 

[Stephen]

I'll admit it right off the bat. I'm not a fan. I think he's too small. Easily knocked off the puck. Easily knocked down. Out of control a lot trying to get the puck and knocking himself down in the process. Maybe he needs to go down and become a bit more of a grinder to work on his battles, strength and balance. He does have a good motor and a great shot. Just send him down and get him to work on his deficiencies. There's no shame in being sent down if it's needed. And I think it's needed unless he can learn to hide in the offensive zone, pop into a shooting position and use that shot the way Caufield does it. Become one dimensional or a complete player. Up to him.

View attachment 611551

Caufield’s wheels and hockey sense set him apart from Robertson though. Robertson seems to have the shot but also this idea that he needs to be a mini Hyman and be involved in so much to justify his value. I think it works against him.

 

[Seath The Scaleless]

Robertson hasn't played many games overall since 2020, so sitting him in the press box does more harm than good. He needs to play games, be it in the AHL or with the big club. Can't be on the fence imo

 

[hobarth]

Nic Robertson=Nic Petan, our Nic is younger so there's still hope.

I think Babs/RC has said it best in the past, the more experienced player gets the nod if the players are close in talent.

The NHL isn't where a team develops players, a player must be predeveloped/NHL ready to make the NHL and he can improve once there but he needs to earn a roster spot, first.

Right now I'd say Robertson is an NHL-AHL tweener, too good for the AHL but not good enough for the NHL based on his own merits, he might get a chance if there's an injury but right now he's not considered better than Jarnkrok, Aston-Reese, Simmonds and Kerfoot so I don't think he's anything to get worked up about.

 

[ITM]

Since we have seemingly unlimited resources, can we not go out and hire all of Tampa's scouts and development staff? I mean, they keep churning draft picks and plugging holes almost automatically...it's really impressive.


Brodie and Muzzin went down, who do we have that can step up??
Hollowell and Mete lmao

If you draft nothing but smurfs, don't complain when your stars get abused and you get manhandled in the playoffs. By the way, the solution is not signing a has-been like Simmonds, you need to draft and develop what Simmonds was not dumpster dive for a broken down version.

Absolutely. Wonder if the memory of Tyler Biggs still looms though.

 

[ULF_55]

Nic Robertson=Nic Petan, our Nic is younger so there's still hope.

I think Babs/RC has said it best in the past, the more experienced player gets the nod if the players are close in talent.

The NHL isn't where a team develops players, a player must be predeveloped/NHL ready to make the NHL and he can improve once there but he needs to earn a roster spot, first.

Right now I'd say Robertson is an NHL-AHL tweener, too good for the AHL but not good enough for the NHL based on his own merits, he might get a chance if there's an injury but right now he's not considered better than Jarnkrok, Aston-Reese, Simmonds and Kerfoot so I don't think he's anything to get worked up about.

Really, don't know why he isn't in the AHL playing minutes till he drops?

Is this strictly a money situation? He gets NHL money for being on the NHL roster practicing.

 

[ULF_55]

Since we have seemingly unlimited resources, can we not go out and hire all of Tampa's scouts and development staff? I mean, they keep churning draft picks and plugging holes almost automatically...it's really impressive.


Brodie and Muzzin went down, who do we have that can step up??
Hollowell and Mete lmao

If you draft nothing but smurfs, don't complain when your stars get abused and you get manhandled in the playoffs. By the way, the solution is not signing a has-been like Simmonds, you need to draft and develop what Simmonds was not dumpster dive for a broken down version.

Villeneuve is still cooking.

I really don't get the Koster pick though?

On absolute throw away picks why not try for some size?

​

 

[Future]

Not sure how anyone can justify his usage, or lack thereof.

Simmonds is essentially on the team as the mascot. Good guy, teammates like him, so put him in I guess. Similar to Kyle Clifford. No longer a good player which is why he doesn’t get claimed on waivers despite making near league minimum. Engvall has not been good all year and is softer than Robertson.

Then there’s Kerfoot who should’ve been traded in the off-season when he still had some value but now essentially just collects a paycheque without having any tangible positive impact on the ice. Another guy arguably still on the team because he’s well liked despite his contributions.

And there’s Robertson, who was scratched and sent to the Marlies while his confidence was high and his form was strong. Then brought up, immediately contributed, and after a game or two of average play, scratched again for long periods. How can he be expected to just hit the ground running with 8 minutes of icetime after barely playing the last two years? What are we risking by playing him? As if Nick Robertson is going to lose us games, give me a break.

I’ve seen the arguments essentially boil down to “tie goes to the vet”. Those same vets have sucked ass quite frankly and are in part the reason why we fail year after year. Why reward that?

 

[diceman934]

I say he is right we're we need him at this point.

 

[hobarth]

Really, don't know why he isn't in the AHL playing minutes till he drops?

Is this strictly a money situation? He gets NHL money for being on the NHL roster practicing.

What can he learn in the A , he's proven he's too good for that league, right now he's in the mix as a replacement player for injures or nonperformance especially when TO is on the road.

Playing him in the A will not make him into an NHLer, been there, done that.

 

[hobarth]

Not sure how anyone can justify his usage, or lack thereof.

Simmonds is essentially on the team as the mascot. Good guy, teammates like him, so put him in I guess. Similar to Kyle Clifford. No longer a good player which is why he doesn’t get claimed on waivers despite making near league minimum. Engvall has not been good all year and is softer than Robertson.

Then there’s Kerfoot who should’ve been traded in the off-season when he still had some value but now essentially just collects a paycheque without having any tangible positive impact on the ice. Another guy arguably still on the team because he’s well liked despite his contributions.

And there’s Robertson, who was scratched and sent to the Marlies while his confidence was high and his form was strong. Then brought up, immediately contributed, and after a game or two of average play, scratched again for long periods. How can he be expected to just hit the ground running with 8 minutes of icetime after barely playing the last two years? What are we risking by playing him? As if Nick Robertson is going to lose us games, give me a break.

I’ve seen the arguments essentially boil down to “tie goes to the vet”. Those same vets have sucked ass quite frankly and are in part the reason why we fail year after year. Why reward that?

One of the greatest weaknesses of drafting small players is that if they don't become top 6 players they have little value because of their size.

Simmonds because of his size and rep still has value when not scoring, that's not something that can be said about Robertson.

Kerfoot did appear to have value in the summer so why wouldn't TO try to cash into his value as a Leaf, 50 plus points, PKer, is/was trusted in all forward positions, the type of player that all teams including TO need.

Engvall moves the puck, PKs, can and has been scoring decently as a bottom 6er, has lots of speed and can decently play any forward position, can Robertson?

I think that all these players that are playing even tho you don't think they should, should give you an idea of how subgrade Robertson is in the eyes of Keefe and probably others, he's a scorer that has/is having trouble getting any puck touches during games