Blue Jays Discussion: RIP Roy Halladay (1977-2017)

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

i stand by "only 5yrs".

i never argued it was the shortest ever.

I never criticized it. I just laughed at it.

Not sure why we can't all just settle on the "he was slightly above average" and move the **** along.

 

[phillipmike]

Zero. The chances the Jays outbid the Yankees and Dodgers for Otani are zero. Not because they won't be willing to pay up, of course, but because every team in baseball will make the exact same bid ($20 million, which is the max) for the right to negotiate, and then once they've made that bid every team in baseball will offer the most they possibly can for his services, with the caveat that they're limited by their available international bonus pool money. For the Jays, that's $50,000. For the Dodgers, it's $300,000. For the Yankees, it's over $3,000,000.

Davidi reported that the Jays might have slightly more than $1M to work with;

To that end, it’s sensible for the Blue Jays to position themselves as the team to help him reach those goals, especially since money won’t provide the tipping point in the bidding. Since Otani is under 25, his signing will count against a team’s international bonus pool, which is hard capped between $4.75-$5.75 million depending on a club’s market size and revenue.

The Blue Jays are on the lower end of that scale and spent heavily in July, but they acquired some pool room from the St. Louis Cardinals in a trade for minor-leaguer Lane Thomas during the summer and are believed to have slightly more than $1 million to work with right now.

Ross Atkins offers hint on how Blue Jays might pitch Shohei Otani - Sportsnet.ca

 

[Discoverer]

Here, I'll add in the run differentials for you.

Duquette (1yrs): inherited 66wins, -172 RD, 21st BA org talent ranking, + 4th overall pick
Hazen (1yrs): inherited 69wins, -138 RD, 28th BA org talent ranking, +7th overall pick
Bridich (3yrs): inherited 66 wins, -63 RD, 8th BA org talent ranking, +3rd overall pick
Rizzo (4yrs): inherited 59wins, -164 RD, 21st BA org talent ranking, +1st overall pick
Hoyer (4yrs): inherited 71wins, -146 RD, 16th BA org talent ranking, +2nd overall pick
AA (5yrs): inherited 75wins, 19th, +27 RD, BA org talent ranking, +11th overall pick

One of those teams was a decent team that had some terrible luck. Five of them were terrible teams. You can decide which was which.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

No? explain to me the moves duquette made to change his team into a playoff team the first season.

Traded for Jason Hammel and signed Wei-Yin Chen.

 

[Discoverer]

Davidi reported that the Jays might have slightly more than $1M to work with;

Nice... thanks. The article I got the information from was breaking down all of the teams' remaining allotments... it seemed pretty well-researched, but I wonder if maybe they didn't account for some of the trades.

Regardless... the Jays can't offer as much as the Yankees and many others, is the main takeaway. So an unwillingness to pay up will not be a consideration here.

When the top team can only offer a little over $3 million, I doubt money on this contract will be a huge factor. He's already passing up a nine-digit payday by coming to the MLB now instead of waiting a couple years.

 

[sparxx87]

I never criticized it. I just laughed at it.

Not sure why we can't all just settle on the "he was slightly above average" and move the **** along.

Because the new regime is ****** terrible.

The last few years have been the most fun I’ve ever had as a baseball fan. That was under AA.. Now, I’ll need my dusty old VHS tapes of 92-93 if I want to see the Jays actually win anything in the next decade. Why the hell would I keep my wagon hitched to a team that’s headed in the wrong direction?

I’ve got better ways to spend my time and money.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Because the new regime is ****** terrible.

The last few years have been the most fun I’ve ever had as a baseball fan. That was under AA.. Now, I’ll need my dusty old VHS tapes of 92-93 if I want to see the Jays actually win anything in the next decade. Why the hell would I keep my wagon hitched to a team that’s headed in the wrong direction?

I’ve got better ways to spend my time and money.

This post has literally nothing to do with my post. Don't loop me into your nonsensical rants.

 

[Discoverer]

No? explain to me the moves duquette made to change his team into a playoff team the first season.

Duquette got lucky in a lot of ways, for sure. Adding three average to above average starters to the worst rotation in baseball didn't hurt, though.

Now please, continue making the argument for all those other teams.

 

[phillipmike]

Nice... thanks. The article I got the information from was breaking down all of the teams' remaining allotments... it seemed pretty well-researched, but I wonder if maybe they didn't account for some of the trades.

Regardless... the Jays can't offer as much as the Yankees and many others, is the main takeaway. So an unwillingness to pay up will not be a consideration here.

When the top team can only offer a little over $3 million, I doubt money on this contract will be a huge factor. He's already passing up a nine-digit payday by coming to the MLB now instead of waiting a couple years.

No problem. As you said it will have very little to do with money and more with baseball and fit. If im him i just dont see how the Dodgers or Yankees make the most sense.

Duquette got lucky in a lot of ways, for sure. Adding three average to above average starters to the worst rotation in baseball didn't hurt, though.

Now please, continue making the argument for all those other teams.

Didnt realize the 2012 Orioles had the 16th best run differential yet the 8th best record. It was a +7 team that won 93 games, according to Pythagorean W-L they should have won 82 games.

Duquette didnt need to do much with the offense as the O's put up 708 runs in 2011 plus had most of his position players locked up so there isnt much he could have done with the except at 3B and in LF. Though 3B was addressed with Machado coming up. Had Wieters, Davis, Andino, Hardy, Reynolds, Jones and Markakis all locked up.

He made his impact on the pitching side adding 3 of their top 5 WAR pitchers in one off-season (Hammel, Chen and O'Day) or 4 of 7 if you want to include Gonzalez - something he needed to do as they were the league worst in runs against at 860 runs given up - next worst was 804.

 

[Discoverer]

No problem. As you said it will have very little to do with money and more with baseball and fit. If im him i just dont see how the Dodgers or Yankees make the most sense.

The Dodgers are capped at $300,000. If getting SOME bonus is at all important to him, the Dodgers would be out. They're in a weird spot because, other than money, it's a perfect fit.

 

[sparxx87]

This post has literally nothing to do with my post. Don't loop me into your nonsensical rants.

You asked why we all can’t just settle. I told you.

Is it still nonsensical if I’ve been pretty much bang on with my predictions from the day Shapiro was hired? I had a bunch of posts deleted for ranting about them last winter and again in the spring. All of which came/are coming true.

Next up; Josh Donaldson’s path out of town.

 

[Kurtz]

Nice... thanks. The article I got the information from was breaking down all of the teams' remaining allotments... it seemed pretty well-researched, but I wonder if maybe they didn't account for some of the trades.

Regardless... the Jays can't offer as much as the Yankees and many others, is the main takeaway. So an unwillingness to pay up will not be a consideration here.

When the top team can only offer a little over $3 million, I doubt money on this contract will be a huge factor. He's already passing up a nine-digit payday by coming to the MLB now instead of waiting a couple years.

I'm wondering if the Jays can just make a couple more Lance-like deals to get to the $3 mil mark. Entirely up to Otani what city he'd like to play - whichever team he chooses can just flip a couple of their b-level prospects to get to the maximum possible allotment, if I understand the system correctly.

 

[Discoverer]

I'm wondering if the Jays can just make a couple more Lance-like deals to get to the $3 mil mark. Entirely up to Otani what city he'd like to play - whichever team he chooses can just flip a couple of their b-level prospects to get to the maximum possible allotment, if I understand the system correctly.

I thought the max they could acquire was lower, but apparently it's 75% of their original pool. So assuming they've spent pretty much all of their allotment, they could technically trade their way to somewhere around the $3.5 million level.

I wish we had a way of knowing how much slot money came back in these trades.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

You asked why we all can’t just settle. I told you.

Is it still nonsensical if I’ve been pretty much bang on with my predictions from the day Shapiro was hired? I had a bunch of posts deleted for ranting about them last winter and again in the spring. All of which came/are coming true.

Next up; Josh Donaldson’s path out of town.

Lol

I'm wondering if the Jays can just make a couple more Lance-like deals to get to the $3 mil mark. Entirely up to Otani what city he'd like to play - whichever team he chooses can just flip a couple of their b-level prospects to get to the maximum possible allotment, if I understand the system correctly.

Yeah, from what I understand, most of the offers will be in and around the same thing. Like Discoverer said, I believe the amount that can be acquired via transaction is capped, but not sure by how much, etc. At the end of the day though, you're correct. Its essentially going to be like a college recruitment for Otani. Teams will probably present the duel role, and how they can uniquely offer him the most playing time right away, and then the city, endorsement possibilities, etc. The contract itself will mean next to nothing.

 

[Discoverer]

Teams will probably present the duel role, and how they can uniquely offer him the most playing time right away, and then the city, endorsement possibilities, etc.

"We still need one more reliable starter, we don't have a left fielder yet, and our DH is terrible. Lots of opportunities!"

 

[The Nemesis]

Here they are today talking all about Roy Halladay and there's a Derek Jeter reference.

That's gotta be worth a few drinks.

 

[hoc123]

At first I was suprised but considering they were chasing Fowler last year this makes sense.

Personally I would be pretty happy with if the Jays signed him, Cain and Cozart seem to be the only top free agents that won't get overpaid. I also wonder if the Jays have more money to work with then suggested. Signing Cain wouldn't leave much money for another starter and MI.

Edit: Dammit can't seem to get the tweet to work on my phone. It's on Jerry Crasnick's Twitter.

 

[Jozay]

At first I was suprised but considering they were chasing Fowler last year this makes sense.

Personally I would be pretty happy with if the Jays signed him, Cain and Cozart seem to be the only top free agents that won't get overpaid. I also wonder if the Jays have more money to work with then suggested. Signing Cain wouldn't leave much money for another starter and MI.

Edit: Dammit can't seem to get the tweet to work on my phone. It's on Jerry Crasnick's Twitter.

 

[TOGuy14]

Nice... thanks. The article I got the information from was breaking down all of the teams' remaining allotments... it seemed pretty well-researched, but I wonder if maybe they didn't account for some of the trades.

Regardless... the Jays can't offer as much as the Yankees and many others, is the main takeaway. So an unwillingness to pay up will not be a consideration here.

When the top team can only offer a little over $3 million, I doubt money on this contract will be a huge factor. He's already passing up a nine-digit payday by coming to the MLB now instead of waiting a couple years.

FWIW Manfred has already said he will basically destroy any franchise with penalties that gets cheeky and makes a back door deal on a second contract to lure Otani.

No offering him a small deal now and making a promise of a 10 year 300M contract in a couple seasons

 

[Eyedea]

FWIW Manfred has already said he will basically destroy any franchise with penalties that gets cheeky and makes a back door deal on a second contract to lure Otani.

No offering him a small deal now and making a promise of a 10 year 300M contract in a couple seasons

Which I'm sure the MLBPA is trying to get in on. Making him wait four years to get paid seems like a no-no considering he could just wait two years to bypass the IFA rules.

 

[Brown Dog]

Signing Cain--a guy approaching middle age for an MLBer who relies on his speed and defense--seems like a bad idea.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Nice... thanks. The article I got the information from was breaking down all of the teams' remaining allotments... it seemed pretty well-researched, but I wonder if maybe they didn't account for some of the trades.

Regardless... the Jays can't offer as much as the Yankees and many others, is the main takeaway. So an unwillingness to pay up will not be a consideration here.

When the top team can only offer a little over $3 million, I doubt money on this contract will be a huge factor. He's already passing up a nine-digit payday by coming to the MLB now instead of waiting a couple years.

Like that's going to matter to anyone. The try hards will just come in here and whine and bitch about how the jays weren't willing to pay up like that guy who just said it's all about the money but didn't bother responding when he was told otherwise, probably because he was too busy whining about management some more and in some argument about other teams and what they did, I didn't exactly read too much of it, forgive me if I'm wrong.

 

[hockeywiz542]

 

[Brock Boeser Laser Show]

Anthony Alford is Lorenzo Cain version 2.0

I'm not that interested in Cain unless it's short term (maximum of 3 years). Cain is going to get paid for what he's done and not based on his future value. Id rather role the dice with a cheaper option and hope Alford takes over mid season and runs with it.

 

[Hoverhand]

Hey fellas, havent been around these parts in a while.

Signing Cain--a guy approaching middle age for an MLBer who relies on his speed and defense--seems like a bad idea.

Yeah this does kinda have Michael Bourn written all over it, but seeing as we're going to have 2 absolute juggernauts in our division for like the next decade, we can either go for broke or just rebuild.

This whole making incremental changes thing isnt working anymore. If youre going for it, then go for it.