Retrospectively Did The Sabers Give Up Too Early On Guys Or Were They Never Gonna Get it Done in Buffalo?

[zenthusiast]

Toxic environment from the top on down. Players also had their own warts that became less visible in functional organizations with better cultures and established structures. If the franchise had made significant changes at every level, they could have salvaged the good players, but it wasn’t to be. These guys would have been mired forever in the “what if he was in a better spot” zone

 

[DapperCam]

Can't wait to watch Dahlin win a Norris and Conn Smythe with the Kraken in like 2 seasons. Just like his predecessors ROR, Eichel and Reinhart.

 

[benfranklin]

Buffalo has a culture problem within the team.
Buffalo is not a destination free agents are willing to go to.
Buffalo is in the state of NY, which is taxed higher than most NHL cities.
Buffalo is now rumored between players to be a poor place to place compared to other franchises.
Buffalo has now proven (Eichel) to care about an investment more than their players well being.
Buffalo has terrible weather for the majority of the NHL season.
Buffalo has not made the playoffs for 13 seasons and havent won a series in 17.
Buffalo has an arena that is out dated.
Buffalo is a poor city for additional player revenue outside of their cotnracts.
Buffalo has one other pro team
Buffalo's women are not as attractive per square mile as other NHL cities.
Buffalo is rumored to organically remove testosterone of men.
Buffalo has good food, but bad food for a professional athlete to stay in shape.
Buffalo's wind chill feels the same as the North Pole.
Buffalo is a dying city economically.

 

[Guttersniped]

Reinhart was good for them and didn’t ask for a trade

That’s tough to stomach

Reinhart wanted out by then, he was a year from being a UFA after the disastrous 2020-21 season. He had no interest in sticking around as the team rebuilt yet again.

The Sabres had jerked him around for years though, they could have locked him up earlier.

After his ELC Reinhart got a 2-year deal and then avoided arbitration with a last minute 1-year deal. If you aren’t winning you need to lock up young talent early.

 

[Sticksandsun]

Losing culture is real.

Look at the Sens. Theyre in the exact same type of pattern.

That's what shocks me about the Leafs though, they win in regular season but lose in playoffs and their players just like getting the money (signing bonuses).

 

[5 Minute Major]

We are a clown franchise. Nothing else more needs to be said. We deserved to be pointed at and laughed at.

 

[izlez]

I would say that it turns out rebuilding through the draft takes time

 

[AfroThunder396]

Starts at the top with ownership. Pegula thinks he's a hockey guy since he played club hockey at Penn State 50 years ago and therefore he thinks he can meddle in hockey ops. He only hires Yes-Men and has never been told no in his entire life. The whole reason that Pat Lafontaine resigned from his position back in 2014 was because Terry sent his wife to shadow Lafontaine around and gave her full veto power over every decision he made. He told Terry to stop or he'd quit, Terry refused to stop, so Lafontaine quit.

He tried to do the same things in the early years of the Bills when he hired Rex Ryan and Doug Whaley. Then that fell through. The current Bills are only successful because when GM Brandon Beane and HC Sean McDermott were up for contract renewal, they both said they wouldn't re-sign unless they had an anti-meddling clause in their contract giving them full control of football ops. Pegula agreed and the Bills have been a powerhouse the past 5 years.

More specifically, Tim Murray was a terrible GM who didn't understand the difference between a team and a bunch of players. He thought he could pure talent his way to success and neglected the actual roster building. That team never had an identity and quite frankly hasn't had an identity since Briere and Drury left. He was the one who installed this casually carefree "we'll I'm doing my job, if the team sucks you can't blame me" cover-your-own-ass culture that hasn't left the building for nearly a decade.

 

[Voight]

ROR wanted out because EIchel didn't like that the other players considered him the real captain, and because he didn't enjoy playing on a team/for an organization that was OK with losing a ton of hockey games.

Eichel quit on the team even before his medical issue. He wasn't willing to tough it out. There's nothing they could've done about that.

 

[TheBeerNerd]

I saw somewhere that firing their GM in 2016 was a big mistake. They weren't good that season, but there was visible improvement and it looked like they were about to turn that corner before canning that guy (forgot who it was) and hiring Bottoril. They've never been close since.

 

[Mattilaus]

I saw somewhere that firing their GM in 2016 was a big mistake. They weren't good that season, but there was visible improvement and it looked like they were about to turn that corner before canning that guy (forgot who it was) and hiring Bottoril. They've never been close since.

Murray, and he was canned because he wouldn't can his coach. It's another example of ownership meddling.

 

[benfranklin]

ROR wanted out because EIchel didn't like that the other players considered him the real captain, and because he didn't enjoy playing on a team/for an organization that was OK with losing a ton of hockey games.

Eichel quit on the team even before his medical issue. He wasn't willing to tough it out. There's nothing they could've done about that.

Neither of those are true. Do you have quotes?

ROR wanted to compete and didnt like the losing culture and was headed down the depression route. Eichel similar but then the team didnt have his back health wise and we now know n hindsight he was right. They could have let him have his surgery and either come back rejuvenated or trade him for actual value instead of spare parts.

 

[The Nuge]

Why is Evander Kane in the op's post lol? I'd have an easier time arguing his life was better before he left buffalo....

Edit didn't mean to quote above poster

I definitely wouldn’t. His personal life is in a good place finally, and arguably his best hockey of his career came after Buffalo (eg he was nearly PPG , and scored at a 50 goal pace, his first year in Edmonton). But that doesn’t really have anything to do with Buffalo. It’s about Kane growing as a person

When you sell off everyone good. How do you convince good solid vets to play for you when they have options? You can’t unless it’s a massive overpay on the contract.

Kids alone won’t be able turn it around in their own. And it takes more than 1 guy to do it.

Ya I was jealous of Buffalo’s rebuild at the time because they had so many good pieces they were able to sell off for picks, and Edmonton didn’t. Turns out, you need vets (and to draft well).

I would say that it turns out rebuilding through the draft takes time

And it’s no guarantee to succeed.

I saw somewhere that firing their GM in 2016 was a big mistake. They weren't good that season, but there was visible improvement and it looked like they were about to turn that corner before canning that guy (forgot who it was) and hiring Bottoril. They've never been close since.

I don’t see it. Buffalo’s drafting under Murray was awful. Pretty much the only pick he didn’t screw up was Eichel.

 

[Mattilaus]

I definitely wouldn’t. His personal life is in a good place finally, and arguably his best hockey of his career came after Buffalo (eg he was nearly PPG , and scored at a 50 goal pace, his first year in Edmonton). But that doesn’t really have anything to do with Buffalo. It’s about Kane growing as a person



Ya I was jealous of Buffalo’s rebuild at the time because they had so many good pieces they were able to sell off for picks, and Edmonton didn’t. Turns out, you need vets (and to draft well).



And it’s no guarantee to succeed.



I don’t see it. Buffalo’s drafting under Murray was awful. Pretty much the only pick he didn’t screw up was Eichel.

Tbh he even managed to screw that one up a bit by pre-emptively pumping up McDavid. Made it seems like Eichel was just a consolation prize before he was even drafted.

 

[RogerRogerr]

Buffalo is the youngest team with the least experienced roster in the league.

It's rather trope-ish to say that, but they needed veterans to help them learn how to win in the league. The Jagr trade was one of the most important trades in Panthers' history. They were a loser franchise, with a losing mentality where veterans only went to coast. Jagr changed Barkov and Ekblad.

 

[Primary Assist]

As other posters have mentioned, this is a deep, deep cultural issue with the team. In fact it even traces its roots back to shortly after the team's inception when they didn't even give Taro Tsujimoto a crack at the roster

 

[TheBeerNerd]

Buffalo is the youngest team with the least experienced roster in the league.

It's rather trope-ish to say that, but they needed veterans to help them learn how to win in the league. The Jagr trade was one of the most important trades in Panthers' history. They were a loser franchise, with a losing mentality where veterans only went to coast. Jagr changed Barkov and Ekblad.

And that's where Pegula's cheapness comes in. Bottom five in the league when it comes to spending on free agents. You need vets to build a different culture. Worked with the Devils and Dougie Hamilton. Hell, even before then, PK Subban was a big influence on young Jack Hughes.

 

[Stickpucker]

Buffalo has a culture problem within the team.
Buffalo is not a destination free agents are willing to go to.
Buffalo is in the state of NY, which is taxed higher than most NHL cities.
Buffalo is now rumored between players to be a poor place to place compared to other franchises.
Buffalo has now proven (Eichel) to care about an investment more than their players well being.
Buffalo has terrible weather for the majority of the NHL season.
Buffalo has not made the playoffs for 13 seasons and havent won a series in 17.
Buffalo has an arena that is out dated.
Buffalo is a poor city for additional player revenue outside of their cotnracts.
Buffalo has one other pro team
Buffalo's women are not as attractive per square mile as other NHL cities.
Buffalo is rumored to organically remove testosterone of men.
Buffalo has good food, but bad food for a professional athlete to stay in shape.
Buffalo's wind chill feels the same as the North Pole.
Buffalo is a dying city economically.

Is that all?

 

[Mattilaus]

Is that all?

I am sure if we spend some time we can think of a few more but nobody wants to spend time thinking about this team anymore.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I actually think Buffalo should have bottomed out more consecutively and longer, as it is, they've generally lacked identity and changing GMs all the time is part of that.

In 20/20 hindsight, don't trade for O'Reilly, don't try and improve rapidly from a team torn down to the studs. 'Tank' out 2015-16 and 2016-17, likely still pretty bad 2017-18. Make a lot more excess draft selections consistently throughout the five year period. Focus on adding Defensemen, not forwards in free agency. Buffalo is too unfocused. Rounds 1-3: 1 third out the door in 2015, 1 excess 3rd in 2016, 1 excess 2nd in 2017, 1 3rd out the door in 2018, 1 excess 1st in 2019 but the 2nd out the door (resulting in only a net gain of 5 draft spots), 1 third out the door in 2020.

It's like they wanted t build from the draft but stopped hoarding draft capital for a long stretch despite not being close to the postseason. They weren't focused, I'm not sure what they were trying to do at any given moment in time. A lot of their moves feel random and not calculated as part of a bigger picture.

 

[Howboutthempanthers]

The Sabers had players who went on to success after the Sabers like Jack Eichel, Ryan O Rielly, Sam Reinhart, Evander Kane, Brandon Montour. Should they have held onto those players and tried more to build around them or is it just the case that they were able to work in successful systems where they weren't necessarily "THE guy?"

One of these is not like the others.

 

[FoSotC]

Neither of those are true. Do you have quotes?

ROR wanted to compete and didnt like the losing culture and was headed down the depression route. Eichel similar but then the team didnt have his back health wise and we now know n hindsight he was right. They could have let him have his surgery and either come back rejuvenated or trade him for actual value instead of spare parts.

Eichel himself confirmed that he asked for a trade before his injury even happened:

 

[kerrabria]

Buffalo has a culture problem within the team.
Buffalo is not a destination free agents are willing to go to.
Buffalo is in the state of NY, which is taxed higher than most NHL cities.
Buffalo is now rumored between players to be a poor place to place compared to other franchises.
Buffalo has now proven (Eichel) to care about an investment more than their players well being.
Buffalo has terrible weather for the majority of the NHL season.
Buffalo has not made the playoffs for 13 seasons and havent won a series in 17.
Buffalo has an arena that is out dated.
Buffalo is a poor city for additional player revenue outside of their cotnracts.
Buffalo has one other pro team
Buffalo's women are not as attractive per square mile as other NHL cities.
Buffalo is rumored to organically remove testosterone of men.
Buffalo has good food, but bad food for a professional athlete to stay in shape.
Buffalo's wind chill feels the same as the North Pole.
Buffalo is a dying city economically.

 

[dirtydanglez]

the whole organization is dysfunctional from the top down. it's the same problem the sens are facing. that type of incompetence can take decades to fix.

 

[kerrabria]

the whole organization is dysfunctional from the top down. it's the same problem the sens are facing. that type of incompetence can take decades to fix.

I've never cared for the Buffalo/Ottawa comparison.
The main problem with Ottawa has been extremely cheap ownership who wouldn't give management the necessary resources to succeed, fostered a hostile relationship with players, and didn't hold incompetent coaches/front office people accountable for amateur hour stunts.
The main problem with Buffalo has been poor player evaluation. For the past decade, they've built their Top 6 and Top 4 based on draft position--not readiness or actual ability. And they always dish out premature contracts that screw the cap table.