Post-Game Talk: Restarrected - Stars 1, Jets 5

[surixon]

No I get what you are saying, and yes a "complimentary' player is a nice thing to have and not a dismissal or insult of a players skill and use or potential impact on a game so i see what you are saying.........I just think its wrong. In fact with so little a sample size in a rookie year...it's almost insane.

I'd be curious to see what you say said about #55 at 22yrs old. Did you have him marked down as a complimentary 4th liner as well?

At age 22 Scheifele put up 60 plus points in the NHL, not really an apt comparison. He also had a history of driving results on his junior teams before the NHL so I he easily fit into the play driver category for me.

I will be happy if he effectively fills Armia's role as a a very strong defensive pkayer, cycles, PKer who has the skill and talent to play up and down the line up as needed and help us with secondary scoring.

 

[JetsFan815]

I think it's a difference in philosophy. Some people would rather have a 4th line that is like a soft scoring line (with Petan playing on it). I would rather have a line that is aggressive, and wears down the other team. That 4th line isn't going to score a lot but with some more ice time I think they will get better at getting in on the opposition D quick and grind out a cycle and prevent chances against that way.

Might not be sexy but in the playoffs I firmly believe a 4th line that plays like that, tires the opposition out, and doesn't give up much (despite not producing a lot of offense) is way more useful. I don't want a softer 4th line that scores a bit more but gives more up and doesn't really grind the other team down.

This team is trying to win a cup, you have to build your roster for playoff hockey.

This is where you are wrong. Most people who want to see Petan on there are not saying that because of preference of his style. They want that to get the best results out of the 4th line, regardless of the style.

I don't care what the "style" of the 4th line is, all I care is -- are they playing outside their defensive zone most of their shifts? Can they stop bleeding shots and chances against? Are they able to establish some amount of offensive zone time?

If a line does 3 of those things, I don't care if they they are crawling on their hands and knees to accomplish that, they are helping the team win.

I love physical hockey with big hits, esp when my team is throwing the big hits. Vegas 4th line has 2 guys who throw hits at a much higher rate than Lemieux does, I would take the Vegas 4th line as my 4th line no problem, maybe even ahead of Petan. Because they throw hits, play mostly in the offensive zone and limit shots and chances against. That however is not true for the "physical" player on our 4th line.

We are allowed to hold physical players to a higher standard beyond "does he hit", just like we hold skilled players to a higher standard than "does he dangle". If your belief is that "Jets need to have physical players who can grind down the other team" then your position should be that the Jets trade for a guy like William Carrier who plays in that role to great effect, rather than defending playing a specific player who does not seem to be in his depth in that role.

 

[ffh]

Yea, we really need our 4th line to 'wear down' the other teams 4th line .

If our 4th line is on the ice against anyone other than the other teams bottom 6 in a playoff game Maurice will be yanking them off the ice as fast as possible.

how is that different from what other coaches would do with their 4th line against other teams top 6.

 

[JetsWillFly4Ever]

how is that different from what other coaches would do with their 4th line against other teams top 6.

It's not, but it completely destroys the argument of your 4th line wearing down anyone. Who cares if the team your playing's 4th line is worn down? I'd much rather have a line out possess and out-chance the other teams line than 'wear them down', especially a 4th line where there is no value in wearing them down.

 

[Skidooboy]

At age 22 Scheifele put up 60 plus points in the NHL, not really an apt comparison. He also had a history of driving results on his junior teams before the NHL so I he easily fit into the play driver category for me.

I will be happy if he effectively fills Armia's role as a a very strong defensive pkayer, cycles, PKer who has the skill and talent to play up and down the line up as needed and help us with secondary scoring.

I think it is an apt comparison because Mark wasn't the guy he is now when he was 22. and that is my point. different players different curves different paths, different pedigrees....but nobody should EVER look at a guy whose 22 years old with 1 AHL season and 15 NHL games under his belt and start pronouncing what he is with anything like the authority you seem to be offering up. You have no idea what Appleton will develop into. Hell Schief was never a Rookie Of The Year anywhere. ever. so I find it funny that you seem to have such a grasp on who he will be.

 

[surixon]

I think it is an apt comparison because Mark wasn't the guy he is now when he was 22. and that is my point. different players different curves different paths, different pedigrees....but nobody should EVER look at a guy whose 22 years old with 1 AHL season and 15 NHL games under his belt and start pronouncing what he is with anything like the authority you seem to be offering up. You have no idea what Appleton will develop into. Hell Schief was never a Rookie Of The Year anywhere. ever. so I find it funny that you seem to have such a grasp on who he will be.

All I was doing was giving my opinion that is all. You are free to your own and are free to disagree with mine.

No I don't know what he will turn into but like everyone else on these boards I make projections with our young players. Sometimes I'm right sometimes I'm wrong. It doesn't much matter to me. In fact like with most of our young players I will be very happy if they exceed my expectations.

 

[ffh]

It's not, but it completely destroys the argument of your 4th line wearing down anyone. Who cares if the team your playing's 4th line is worn down? I'd much rather have a line out possess and out-chance the other teams line than 'wear them down', especially a 4th line where there is no value in wearing them down.

never said anything about wearing down other 4th lines. I said given the choice of facing vegas for example again in the playoffs I would rather have Appleton and Lemieux out there over petan and dano for their 6 or 7 minutes a game. if you have better choices then Lemieux or Appleton sure why not. but we don't. every team against the cap doesn't have 20 goal scorers on the 4th line. 5 to 10 goal scorers with some jam is what all 4th lines are made of when team are up against the cap.

 

[JetsWillFly4Ever]

never said anything about wearing down other 4th lines. I said given the choice of facing vegas for example again in the playoffs I would rather have Appleton and Lemieux out there over petan and dano for their 6 or 7 minutes a game. if you have better choices then Lemieux or Appleton sure why not. but we don't. every team against the cap doesn't have 20 goal scorers on the 4th line. 5 to 10 goal scorers with some jam is what all 4th lines are made of when team are up against the cap.

Why though? What reason is there to have guys who are more often out possessed and out chanced than guys who have proven to have better results? Because they hit more? They scare people? What is the argument?

It doesn't make any sense to me. Play the best players regardless of style. We have plenty of grit/grind etc. with our 3rd line already.

 

[Gotaf7]

Haven’t you heard? Players stop developing at 19-20 (except Scheifele). That’s been an ongoing theme here this year.

Players usually get better not worse!

 

[LowLefty]

It's not, but it completely destroys the argument of your 4th line wearing down anyone. Who cares if the team your playing's 4th line is worn down? I'd much rather have a line out possess and out-chance the other teams line than 'wear them down', especially a 4th line where there is no value in wearing them down.

This "wear down" argument is taking on a life of it's own -

You're right - wearing down or pounding on the apposing 4th is pretty much meaningless -
But if you have a heavy line that's working the opponents D into the ground, especially the long minute guys, there can be some value with size.

At the end of the day, there is an advantage to having size and skill on your 4th - if you can make that happen. I'm not talking top 6 skill - just enough to score the odd goal to support limited minutes production.
This appears to be the plan with the Jets 4th - both size and skill that may have an advantage over a smaller 4th and will take a toll on the apposing D - especially when you get into the playoffs and the grind wears on the long minute guys. You can even throw out a heavy, fast and fresh 4th late in the game and they can do some damage against even top 6.

This is work in progress and my opinion only - this current group have a ways to go before they will do any damage.

 

[Board Bard]

They can't outskate or out-muscle the players they supposedly need to wear down either. I don't buy that a 'physical non-scoring' 4th line is capable of somehow grinding and bullying the Ovechkins, McDavids, or Crosbys of the league into meek submission, given their minutes, and that NHL top-sixers of nowadays typically are at least a physical match for (if not outmatch), bottom-sixers. Take your prototypical top line power-forward...they're bigger, faster, stronger, fitter, skate better....your 4th line is going to wear them down into mewling kittins because they like to play 'heavy'? Not so easy.

Nicely said. Jets have seldom iced a fourth line above league average. They do, however, fit what (some of) the coaches apparently see as appropriate. More's the pity.

 

[surixon]

The Jets fourth line last year was excellent because it was multifaceted.

You had an impact play driver in Perrault
A very strong two-way player with some talent and size in Armia
And a grizzled vet in Gramps.

Neither Armia or Perrault made a habit of drilling people but that line terrorized opposing teams depth players due to maintain control of the puck at will in the opposining teams end. They also torched them on the score sheet. I would like to see us ice a similar line.

 

[HannuJ]

It's not, but it completely destroys the argument of your 4th line wearing down anyone. Who cares if the team your playing's 4th line is worn down? I'd much rather have a line out possess and out-chance the other teams line than 'wear them down', especially a 4th line where there is no value in wearing them down.

i can't believe some hockey fans and hockey pundits still refer to the need of a 4th "energy" line. my god, how i don't miss those days of crap like the GST line - 3 guys that couldn't put the puck in the net unless they remembered to insert the lucky horseshoe in their jocks before the game.

give me 3 skilled waterbugs any f'ing day of the week.

 

[Board Bard]

It's not, but it completely destroys the argument of your 4th line wearing down anyone. Who cares if the team your playing's 4th line is worn down? I'd much rather have a line out possess and out-chance the other teams line than 'wear them down', especially a 4th line where there is no value in wearing them down.

Plus you're likely to wear them down more effectively if they're chasing after you in their own end for 60 percent of their shifts than if you hit them six times a game.

 

[ffh]

Plus you're likely to wear them down more effectively if they're chasing after you in their own end for 60 percent of their shifts than if you hit them six times a game.

Don't confuse wanting the best all round best players on any 4th line with not wanting pb fodder it.

 

[Ducky10]

Sure, size and skill is a great combination. If you have both, then you'll likely not be a bottom 6 player, let alone a bottom 3 player.

You don't take less skill over more size though. That is an antiquated notion and a mistake NHL GM's and coaches have been making for years.

If I can't have both, give me skill.

 

[Whileee]

They can't outskate or out-muscle the players they supposedly need to wear down either. I don't buy that a 'physical non-scoring' 4th line is capable of somehow grinding and bullying the Ovechkins, McDavids, or Crosbys of the league into meek submission, given their minutes, and that NHL top-sixers of nowadays typically are at least a physical match for (if not outmatch), bottom-sixers. Take your prototypical top line power-forward...they're bigger, faster, stronger, fitter, skate better....your 4th line is going to wear them down into mewling kittins because they like to play 'heavy'? Not so easy.

Fair points, but I don't think aggressive forechecking and physical play is designed to wear down the best forwards. It's more effective at grinding down the defense. I am in the camp of using skill throughout a lineup, but I keep an open mind about whether constant pounding can wear down and change the effectiveness of 2nd and 3rd pairing D's.

 

[pucka lucka]

Plus you're likely to wear them down more effectively if they're chasing after you in their own end for 60 percent of their shifts than if you hit them six times a game.

Exactly, who wears down who when chasing another team to hit them?

 

[Jets 31]

If the Jets biggest issue is their 4th line that's good because that means their defense , goaltending and their other 3 lines are playing well . Which means more wins than losses .

 

[ps241]

I think that's a little disingenuous.

I do think Kuli is the perfect fit for Myers and makes him better. However, when Myers is playing well he's not being dragged into it. Kulikov doesn't somehow magically control him making better decisions, skating and using his hands effectively. I am more likely to agree with others here who have noticed that he plays better when he gets more minutes and responsibility. Some players need that.

Hell, even Buff himself plays better in his sweet spot of minutes.

I agree the moment Buff went out the first time and Myers got a big increase in work load Tyler quit thinking and just started playing, the confidence grew and he has been way less stressful to watch since then.

 

[Jets 31]

I agree the moment Buff went out the first time and Myers got a big increase in work load Tyler quit thinking and just started playing, the confidence grew and he has been way less stressful to watch since then.

I'm not a huge Myers fan , mostly because he has way too many brain farts but if he can consistently play like he did against Dallas i'll become a fan .

 

[ps241]

The Jets fourth line last year was excellent because it was multifaceted.

You had an impact play driver in Perrault
A very strong two-way player with some talent and size in Armia
And a grizzled vet in Gramps.

Neither Armia or Perrault made a habit of drilling people but that line terrorized opposing teams depth players due to maintain control of the puck at will in the opposining teams end. They also torched them on the score sheet. I would like to see us ice a similar line.

This ^ was the only time in 2.0 history I thought we got our 4th line right. They actually provided a mismatch for us against the other teams 4th line and were much tougher to play against than our current 4th line. When they formed that line last year it was around the same time Lowry got back and the 3rd line took off too. I think that was about game 2o and our bottom six became a weapon and we never looked back.

That brief shining moment notwithstanding, our 4th line has always been a dumping ground and Maurice just can’t help himself that is how he sees hockey. It shouldn’t need a theme and they don’t need to be a 5 minute a night novelty act. The 4th line just needs to be better at hockey like that stretch last season and if they are physical that’s a bonus but not mandatory.

 

[ffh]

This ^ was the only time in 2.0 history I thought we got our 4th line right. They actually provided a mismatch for us against the other teams 4th line and were much tougher to play against than our current 4th line. When they formed that line last year it was around the same time Lowry got back and the 3rd line took off too. I think that was about game 2o and our bottom six became a weapon and we never looked back.

That brief shining moment notwithstanding, our 4th line has always been a dumping ground and Maurice just can’t help himself that is how he sees hockey. It shouldn’t need a theme and they don’t need to be a 5 minute a night novelty act. The 4th line just needs to be better at hockey like that stretch last season and if they are physical that’s a bonus but not mandatory.

given who Maurice has to work with who should he put on the 4th line. are you saying petan or dano should be on the 4th line. ehlers laine . who. he is playing the best 4th line he can like he always has.

 

[Jet]

Fair points, but I don't think aggressive forechecking and physical play is designed to wear down the best forwards. It's more effective at grinding down the defense. I am in the camp of using skill throughout a lineup, but I keep an open mind about whether constant pounding can wear down and change the effectiveness of 2nd and 3rd pairing D's.

This is a great point and thanks for making it. Forecheck wears down the D, tiring them out and rushing decision making. You don't have to hit to hurt, you hit to disrupt and rush.

It might not have a huge use in regular season, but through a 7 game series it absolutely can have impact.

 

[Jet]

i can't believe some hockey fans and hockey pundits still refer to the need of a 4th "energy" line. my god, how i don't miss those days of crap like the GST line - 3 guys that couldn't put the puck in the net unless they remembered to insert the lucky horseshoe in their jocks before the game.

give me 3 skilled waterbugs any f'ing day of the week.

Theres a reason so many still do. Of course you want high skill throughout your team, but you also need people who can steer the game emotionally and psychologically.

Hockey is one of the sports most impacted by the mental aspect of the game. I have always marveled how in one game both teams can look absolutely dominant over the other at certain times. This is due to a lot of factors including energy level and whether your star players can grab a game by the throat (luckily the Jets have some of these players). But there is also, anger, excitement, a jolt from a really strong aggressive shift, fear, being hurried and a myriad of other emotional impacts.

This is magnified in a playoff series. I still believe paying due respect to the psychological side of the game and ensuring you have a strategy and roster to address this is key.

Of course, those players have to be able to play hockey - and I think that is where the NHL has been improving (less face punchers).

I guess the question is, is or will Brendan Lemieux play hockey at a level well enough to not neutralize the positive effects of the other aspects of his game? I think I have seen it. Come playoff time I'd rather have him in the lineup than Petan or Dano.