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Raptors Discussion: REPORT: Raptors trade DeRozan, Poeltl, Protected 1st to Spurs for Leonard, Green

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zeke said:
Here's the thing - the Raps were better than the celtics last year. The Raps have added a player better than anything the Celts have.

And then, as djq points out, any number you can find does indeed suggest that FVV/OG/Wright/Siakam are extremely underrated, while Tatum/Brown/Rozier/Smart aren't the future impact core that most are suggesting they are.

Much of the hype comes, of course, from how the celts kids played when their big guys went down....but, tbh, the raps may themselves have been better off if a guy like Demar had been injured and the kids were allowed to play big minutes like the boston kids were.
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You're changing the topic of discussion completely.

My original post was responding to a poster who stated we are the best team in the East even if we don't make the trade. I disagreed. I've never once said we aren't a better team than Boston with Kawhi. I still don't think we are a slam dunk to finish #1 in the East after this year though, as quite a few are suggesting.

Don't get me wrong, I'm as big of a Raps fan as most. I hope you guys are right when it comes to this "young core" debate, as of right now though I'm not buying it.

We'll see what happens. I can totally see OG becoming a 2-way beast in the future.
 
I've seen Celts fans scattered across the web suggest that not only is their young core significantly better (take Kyrie and Delon out of the equation), but that their bench is also better. I don't even care about the former discussion right now, don't talk shit that you cannot back up.
 
Diamond Joe Quimby said:
Well, since Kyrie, Theis, Delon and Valanciunas all just turned 26. And also I assume Poeltl is no longer eligible for this hypothetical discussion (despite the discussion surrounding pre Kawhi trade young cores).

- Rozier (2.0), Tatum (1.8), Brown (1.0) [in 6658MP] vs. Siakam (1.7), FVV (1.5), OG (1.0) [in 4680 MP]

Yeah, give me Toronto...unless I get Brad Stevens too.
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Yikes, okay man.

We'll agree to disagree
 
Glenn Isildur Healy said:
Why would you want one more shot with a net negative player
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Because of the mere fact that the Beast is out of the East - LBJ was our Kryptonite and his departure is immense; I have no doubt if DD stayed that we would still be around the 60 win mark this upcoming season and would be able to take down the Celts and Sixers.
 
Diamond Joe Quimby said:
Based on.....
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Watching them play? Not much difference between the 4 PG tbh. Delon is 2 years older than the rest and hasn’t show that he’s any further ahead so I have him ranked last.

But Tatum & Brown are easily the better duo than OG & Siakam. Way more offensive potential
 
Now Toronto's guys numbers have to be tempered by the facts that a) they're older and b) they play significantly fewer minutes with lower usage rates.

BUT, at the same time, there's no denying that the toronto kids' rate stats are significantly better than the Boston kids' numbers.

With increased usage, there's little doubt that the Toronto kids' rate stats would go down.....but would they fall all the way down to significantly lower than the Celts' kids? eh, I doubt it.

Tatum (19): 30.5mpg, 19.5usg%, 15.3per, .139ws48, .035vorp48, +6.7nrtg
Rozier (23): 25.9mpg, 20.4usg%, 15.1per, .130ws48, .046corp48, +3.1nrtg
Brown (21): 30.7mpg, 21.4usg%, 13.6per, .100ws48, .022vorp48, +7.1nrtg
Smart (23): 29.9mpg, 19.4usg%, 10.8per, .056ws48, .018vorp48, +6.5nrtg

Siakam (23): 20.7mpg, 15.7usg%, 14.5per, .133ws48, .049vorp48, +9.1nrtg
VVleet (23): 20.0mpg, 19.1usg%, 15.9per, .149ws48, .047vorp48, +12.1nrtg
OG (20): 20.0mpg, 12.4usg%, 10.0per, .098ws48, .032vorp48, +10.2nrtg
Wright (25): 20.8mpg, 17.2usg%, 16.5per, .152ws48, .057vorp48, +7.8nrtg

I kinda wish Demar and Ibaka had just been injured all year, so that our kids could have got primetime minutes like Boston's kids did. I don't think the Raps would have been significantly worse off if that had happened.

And I'm counting on Nick Nurse to up these guys' usage significantly this year, and use guys like Ibaka/Green/Miles as a strict role players.

Also note that if Hayward and Kyrie are healthy this year, the boston kids' usage will take a signficant hit as well. We'll see if they thrive in those more limited roles like the Raps' kids did last year.


All that being said, I do like Tatum the best of all these guys.
 
zeke said:
Now Toronto's guys numbers have to be tempered by the facts that a) they're older and b) they play significantly fewer minutes with lower usage rates.

BUT, at the same time, there's no denying that the toronto kids' rate stats are significantly better than the Boston kids' numbers.

With increased usage, there's little doubt that the Toronto kids' rate stats would go down.....but would they fall all the way down to significantly lower than the Celts' kids? eh, I doubt it.

Tatum (19): 30.5mpg, 19.5usg%, 15.3per, .139ws48, .035vorp48, +6.7nrtg
Rozier (23): 25.9mpg, 20.4usg%, 15.1per, .130ws48, .046corp48, +3.1nrtg
Brown (21): 30.7mpg, 21.4usg%, 13.6per, .100ws48, .022vorp48, +7.1nrtg
Smart (23): 29.9mpg, 19.4usg%, 10.8per, .056ws48, .018vorp48, +6.5nrtg

Siakam (23): 20.7mpg, 15.7usg%, 14.5per, .133ws48, .049vorp48, +9.1nrtg
VVleet (23): 20.0mpg, 19.1usg%, 15.9per, .149ws48, .047vorp48, +12.1nrtg
OG (20): 20.0mpg, 12.4usg%, 10.0per, .098ws48, .032vorp48, +10.2nrtg
Wright (25): 20.8mpg, 17.2usg%, 16.5per, .152ws48, .057vorp48, +7.8nrtg

I kinda wish Demar and Ibaka had just been injured all year, so that our kids could have got primetime minutes like Boston's kids did. I don't think the Raps would have been significantly worse off if that had happened.

And I'm counting on Nick Nurse to up these guys' usage significantly this year, and use guys like Ibaka/Green/Miles as a strict role players.

Also note that if Hayward and Kyrie are healthy this year, the boston kids' usage will take a signficant hit as well. We'll see if they thrive in those more limited roles like the Raps' kids did last year.


All that being said, I do like Tatum the best of all these guys.
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If DeMar and Ibaka were hurt all year, zero chance we would have had home court advantage.
 
ManitobaKid said:
If DeMar and Ibaka were hurt all year, zero chance we would have had home court advantage.
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I think you'll be very happy with what we see with Demar gone and Ibaka likely limited to a strict bench role this year.
 
zeke said:
I think you'll be very happy with what we see with Demar gone and Ibaka likely limited to a strict bench role this year.
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I don't disagree, I was never a big Demar supporter.

All I'm saying though is that if you took those 2 away for the whole season last year we aren't a top 4 team.

A lot of people are going to be surprised with how much of a different team we are with Kawhi and Green, instead of DeMar.
 
ManitobaKid said:
I don't disagree, I was never a big Demar supporter.

All I'm saying is though is that if you took those 2 away for the whole season last year we aren't a top 4 team.
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yeah, and I disagree.

these kids dominated last year, and deserved a much bigger role.

and, what's worse, Demar iso-ball in crunch time actually cost us a whole whack of wins last year all by itself.
 
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Phion Keneuf said:
Watching them play? Not much difference between the 4 PG tbh. Delon is 2 years older than the rest and hasn’t show that he’s any further ahead so I have him ranked last.

But Tatum & Brown are easily the better duo than OG & Siakam. Way more offensive potential
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Unless my league pass and 4k TV is playing tricks on me, I've seen them play too. Quant + Qual supports my claim. ESPN and Bill Simmons don't. I'm fine with that.
 
ManitobaKid said:
Don't get me wrong, I'm as big of a Raps fan as most. I hope you guys are right when it comes to this "young core" debate, as of right now though I'm not buying it.

We'll see what happens. I can totally see OG becoming a 2-way beast in the future.
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Would having a good bench like we did last year indicate we have depth or is a good bench really a year over year thing, where it does not necessarily carry over year over year?
 
Eyedea said:
I've seen Celts fans scattered across the web suggest that not only is their young core significantly better (take Kyrie and Delon out of the equation), but that their bench is also better. I don't even care about the former discussion right now, don't talk **** that you cannot back up.
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Benches are overrated come playoff time. With longer tv timeouts, days off during games, players utilize rest during the regular season. It's not difficult to see how players can play 38-40mpg in the playoffs. The Celtics don't have a better bench but they found more contributors after being ravaged by injuries. Heck the Celts had to get 14mpg from Shane Larkin, Baynes was playing 20mpg in the playoffs.
 
Bluelines said:
Would having a good bench like we did last year indicate we have depth or is a good bench really a year over year thing, where it does not necessarily carry over year over year?
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Absolutely, it should carry over. Adding Green(who may start) but losing Poeltl shouldn't make a huge difference. I obviously like Green more due to his defense, but losing Poeltl creates a bit of a hole at the Centre position coming off the bench.

Boston's bench should also improve quite a bit, they definitely shouldn't have the same amount of injuries this upcoming season as they did last. That bumps guys who were starters last year to the bench

I think some people forget how good Hayward is, assuming he's at the same level he was at before the trade.
 
ManitobaKid said:
Absolutely, it should carry over. Adding Green(who may start) but losing Poeltl shouldn't make a huge difference. I obviously like Green more due to his defense, but losing Poeltl creates a bit of a hole at the Centre position coming off the bench.

Boston's bench should also improve quite a bit, they definitely shouldn't have the same amount of injuries this upcoming season as they did last. That bumps guys who were starters last year to the bench

I think some people forget how good Hayward is, assuming he's at the same level he was at before the trade.
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Paul George was never quite the same, and was 24 when the injury happened. Hayward is 28.
 
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