Raptors Discussion: REPORT: Raptors trade DeRozan, Poeltl, Protected 1st to Spurs for Leonard, Green

[trellaine201]

A good move for the short term as well for the long term.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

You seriously don't think Boston was on par with Toronto? They have arguably the best young core in the league, Hayward missed 81 games, Irving missed 22 games, Smart missed 28 games, Horford missed 10 games, Brown missed 12 games. They finished 4 games back of Toronto. The Raptors were as healthy as any team last season.

If you don't think Boston was a better team before this trade going into next season, you need to take the goggles off. Kawhi and Green change things.

Philly is no slouch either, they are a top 3 team in the East this year with some extremely young talent.

As soon as Hayward snapped his leg, nope. As for their young core, its the most overrated in the league, so they're the best at that I suppose.

As for Philly, they've got some great young guys. Simmons is a star, Embiid is great when healthy, and Saric is underrated. The it drops off a cliff.

 

[Glenn Isildur Healy]

Last 2yrs:

Kawhi: 32.3mpg, 31.2usg%, 27.4per, +8.3nrtg, +6.32rpm
Giannis: 36.1mpg, 29.7usg%, 26.7per, +2.4nrtg, +4.22rpm

Kawhi >>

Yup. Healthy Kawhi is a clear tier above Giannis

17' playoff Kawhi trumps anything Giannis has done

TS%: .672
PPG: 27.7
APG: 4.6
RPG: 7.8
SPG: 1.7
Diff ORTG: +22.2
PER: 31.5

 

[zeke]

Kawhi 2016-17 on/off difference: +1.6
Giannis 2017/18 on/off difference: +9.4

Come on man. Giannis has to absolutely carry that team on both sides of the floor.

can't give Giannis extra credit just because his bench sucks.


Last 2yrs

Kawhi: .248ws/48, 0.118vorp/48
Giannis: .209ws/48, 0.105vorp/48


Kawhi still well ahead.

Giannis is a great kid with some clear weaknesses. Kawhi is just an insane beast.

 

[Glenn Isildur Healy]

Kawhi 2016-17 on/off difference: +1.6
Giannis 2017/18 on/off difference: +9.4

Come on man. Giannis has to absolutely carry that team on both sides of the floor.

17 Playoffs

Kawhi: NET ORTG + 22.2

18 Playoffs

Giannis: NET ORTG -4.5

 

[Glenn Isildur Healy]

Yes, I too would have liked one more shot with DD in our lineup without LBJ in the picture.

Why would you want one more shot with a net negative player

 

[Suntouchable13]

I mostly agree with this, if we stood pat with what we had, we're probably a top 3 team in the East with BOS and PHI. The order of those teams would be far from clear but objectively we may well have ranked 3rd.

But the goal is to win a championship. I do believe we are closer to win a championship with a healthy Kawhi over standing pat. We could have even beat LeBron this year with a Kawhi Leonard type. Why are we just striving to win the conference?

 

[Skolman]

As soon as Hayward snapped his leg, nope. As for their young core, its the most overrated in the league, so they're the best at that I suppose.

As for Philly, they've got some great young guys. Simmons is a star, Embiid is great when healthy, and Saric is underrated. The it drops off a cliff.

Please explain to me how their young core is overrated?

 

[Eyedea]

17 Playoffs

Kawhi: NET ORTG + 22.2

18 Playoffs

Giannis: NET ORTG -4.5

I wasn't arguing Kawhi is lesser. I was arguing why Giannis' net rating isn't significantly higher than it should be.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Please explain to me how their young core is overrated?

As in, how such a thing happens? (i.e. Bill Simmons and the Ringer, Boston as a market, ESPN, easy road in the playoffs + Indiana-like performance against disinterested Lebron). Or, how someone like yourself comes to gush over a couple of decent tier players? To help answer both, let's conduct an experiment.

Rank these point guards, in terms of how good they were in 18/19, and how good they will be going forward:
- Terry Rozier
- Marcus Smart
- Delon Wright
- Fred VanVleet

Now, rank these forwards, in terms of how they were in 18/19, and how good they will be going forward:
- Tatum
- Jaylen Brown
- Pascal Siakam
- OG Anunoby

 

[Eyedea]

can't give Giannis extra credit just because his bench sucks.


Last 2yrs

Kawhi: .248ws/48, 0.118vorp/48
Giannis: .209ws/48, 0.105vorp/48


Kawhi still well ahead.

Giannis is a great kid with some clear weaknesses. Kawhi is just an insane beast.

I don't know, when the difference in SAS and MIL is 3 wins without Kawhi playing, I think Giannis gets some extra credit for actually pushing that team into the playoffs.

The one clear weakness is his perimeter shooting, but that also doesn't stop him from being an efficient scorer. I do think it restricts him come playoff time, but I'd argue he's also an insane beast.

 

[ChuckWoods]

This is Luarel or Yanny all over again.

Some peoples thought processes just blow my mind.

 

[Gary Nylund]

But the goal is to win a championship. I do believe we are closer to win a championship with a healthy Kawhi over standing pat. We could have even beat LeBron this year with a Kawhi Leonard type. Why are we just striving to win the conference?

I just said that as we were, we were one of the top 3 teams in the East. I never said we shouldn't strive for more.

 

[Makaveli]

Kawhi and Tavares in the same year. God Bless!

 

[Eyedea]

The problem with Kyle is he's overpaid by quite a bit, his best years are behind him as well. Although, he showed up to the playoffs this past year meanwhile his buddy that was dealt didn't.

As for Giannis, I'm kind of just speculating. The year Giannis becomes a free agent the Raptors as of now will have zero big contracts they are committed to. As I said in a earlier post, Giannis was apparently blown away with the "Greek Night" at the ACC last season. I'm not super familiar with Toronto as a city, but apparently there is a fairly large Greek population there?


Again, I'm just speculating. I can totally see it happening though

Just wanted to reply to this (being a Greek in Toronto). We do have a pretty large Greek community here, like Boston and Chicago, but not nearly as big as New York. Few of my family members follow basketball, but they all know about him because word obviously gets around that a Greek-born superstar is roaming the NBA. But that's not necessarily the pull here, because every city with a Greek presence has actually done this (holding Greek heritage night) for Giannis. The big pull is actually Masai, a family friend who helped Giannis and his brothers through their citizenship process. Masai was so big on his upside that he was desperately trying to acquire a first that would lead to the selection of Giannis in 2013. The Nigerian connection, the fact that he missed the boat on acquiring him once already, a lot of people have Toronto circled as the destination because Masai will attempt to do everything in his power to have Giannis here.

 

[Skolman]

As in, how such a thing happens? (i.e. Bill Simmons and the Ringer, Boston as a market, ESPN, easy road in the playoffs + Indiana-like performance against disinterested Lebron). Or, how someone like yourself comes to gush over a couple of decent tier players? To help answer both, let's conduct an experiment.

Rank these point guards, in terms of how good they were in 18/19, and how good they will be going forward:
- Terry Rozier
- Marcus Smart
- Delon Wright
- Fred VanVleet

Now, rank these forwards, in terms of how they were in 18/19, and how good they will be going forward:
- Tatum
- Jaylen Brown
- Pascal Siakam
- OG Anunoby

I asked why YOU think they are overrated.

I'd take Tatum or Brown over any of our young guys, I think most non-biased people would.

Regardless, I stand my case. Boston was a better team before the trade, and they are definitely a better team in the future unless quite a bit changes on our side

 

[Skolman]

Just wanted to reply to this (being a Greek in Toronto). We do have a pretty large Greek community here, like Boston and Chicago, but not nearly as big as New York. Few of my family members follow basketball, but they all know about him because word obviously gets around that a Greek-born superstar is roaming the NBA. But that's not necessarily the pull here, because every city with a Greek presence has actually done this (holding Greek heritage night) for Giannis. The big pull is actually Masai, a family friend who helped Giannis and his brothers through their citizenship process. Masai was so big on his upside that he was desperately trying to acquire a first that would lead to the selection of Giannis in 2013. The Nigerian connection, the fact that he missed the boat on acquiring him once already, a lot of people have Toronto circled as the destination because Masai will attempt to do everything in his power to have Giannis here.

Solid, I completely forgot about that connection.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

I asked why YOU think they are overrated.

I'd take Tatum or Brown over any of our young guys, I think most non-biased people would.

Regardless, I stand my case. Boston was a better team before the trade, and they are definitely a better team in the future unless quite a bit changes on our side

That's good that you stand by your case. You should never waiver, regardless of how baseless a claim.

Tatum is good. Has a chance to be quite good. Had a 1.8 Vorp rookie year (.139 WS/48) playing 2438 minutes. I like the ceiling and see a good trajectory. He's not a future top-5 player (all due respect to Bill Simmons).

Brown is ok. His rookie year was hot garbage, and his sophomore year, it took him 2152 minutes played to accrue 1.0 Vorp (.100 WS/48). Which is amazing considering he was essentially Norm Powell with minutes in 16/17.

The Raptors young guys, without Jakob:
- Delon: 1433 MP (.152 WS/48) 1.7 Vorp
- Siakam: 1679 MP (.133 WS/48) 1.7 Vorp
- FVV: 1520 MP (.149 WS/48) 1.5 Vorp
- OG: 1481 MP (.098 WS/48) 1.0 Vorp

So, either the Raptors young core is profoundly underrated, or the Boston young core is ridiculously overrated.

Oh the things you'll see if you just...look.

 

[Skolman]

That's good that you stand by your case. You should never waiver, regardless of how baseless a claim.

Tatum is good. Has a chance to be quite good. Had a 1.8 Vorp rookie year (.139 WS/48) playing 2438 minutes. I like the ceiling and see a good trajectory. He's not a future top-5 player (all due respect to Bill Simmons).

Brown is ok. His rookie year was hot garbage, and his sophomore year, it took him 2152 minutes played to accrue 1.0 Vorp (.100 WS/48). Which is amazing considering he was essentially Norm Powell with minutes in 16/17.

The Raptors young guys, without Jakob:
- Delon: 1433 MP (.152 WS/48) 1.7 Vorp
- Siakam: 1679 MP (.133 WS/48) 1.7 Vorp
- FVV: 1520 MP (.149 WS/48) 1.5 Vorp
- OG: 1481 MP (.098 WS/48) 1.0 Vorp

So, either the Raptors young core is profoundly underrated, or the Boston young core is ridiculously overrated.

Oh the things you'll see if you just...look.

I don't understand what you're getting at. You can spit out these statistics in a way to try and prove you're point that they are overrated, but I'm still not buying it.

Would you take Toronto's young core over Boston's young core?(25U)

 

[AllDay28]

I don't understand what you're getting at. You can spit out these statistics in a way to try and prove you're point that they are overrated, but I'm still not buying it.

Would you take Toronto's young core over Boston's young core?(25U)

so use numbers to suggest the dudes u think are better..are better?

 

[zeke]

I'd take Tatum or Brown over any of our young guys, I think most non-biased people would.

that doesn't really answer an "are they overrated" debate, now does it?

 

[Skolman]

that doesn't really answer an "are they overrated" debate, now does it?

Uh my original post was about how Boston was better before the trade, both now and in the future.

It wasn't me who brought up this overrated claim. "overrated" is subjective

 

[zeke]

Uh my original post was about how Boston was better before the trade, both now and in the future.

It wasn't me who brought up this overrated claim.

Here's the thing - the Raps were better than the celtics last year. The Raps have added a player better than anything the Celts have.

And then, as djq points out, any number you can find does indeed suggest that FVV/OG/Wright/Siakam are extremely underrated, while Tatum/Brown/Rozier/Smart aren't the future impact core that most are suggesting they are.

Much of the hype comes, of course, from how the celts kids played when their big guys went down....but, tbh, the raps may themselves have been better off if a guy like Demar had been injured and the kids were allowed to play big minutes like the boston kids were.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

I don't understand what you're getting at. You can spit out these statistics in a way to try and prove you're point that they are overrated, but I'm still not buying it.

Would you take Toronto's young core over Boston's young core?(25U)

Well, since Kyrie, Theis, Delon and Valanciunas all just turned 26. And also I assume Poeltl is no longer eligible for this hypothetical discussion (despite the discussion surrounding pre Kawhi trade young cores).

- Rozier (2.0), Tatum (1.8), Brown (1.0) [in 6658MP] vs. Siakam (1.7), FVV (1.5), OG (1.0) [in 4680 MP]

Yeah, give me Toronto...unless I get Brad Stevens too.

 

[Phion Keneuf]

As in, how such a thing happens? (i.e. Bill Simmons and the Ringer, Boston as a market, ESPN, easy road in the playoffs + Indiana-like performance against disinterested Lebron). Or, how someone like yourself comes to gush over a couple of decent tier players? To help answer both, let's conduct an experiment.

Rank these point guards, in terms of how good they were in 18/19, and how good they will be going forward:
- Terry Rozier
- Marcus Smart
- Delon Wright
- Fred VanVleet

Now, rank these forwards, in terms of how they were in 18/19, and how good they will be going forward:
- Tatum
- Jaylen Brown
- Pascal Siakam
- OG Anunoby

Rozier
Smart
VanVleet
Delon


Tatum
Brown
OG
Siakam


Not sure what you’re trying to prove here? Celtics side is clearly superior.