people give a lot of credit to Tim when he hasnt done anything as a GM. All his deals so far dont seem like anything special
Relax.
- Thread starter HSF
- Start date
GWNR
Registered User
For all the ups and downs, I enjoy you all. Like a big dysfunctional family
It's not easy being a Sens fan, but it isn't easy being the fan of any team. Remember it was only a few short years ago that Chicago was coming out of some of the darkest days in their history. The leafs are STILL toiling in a decade of mediocrity. The Pens were terrible before Crosby, etc...
The reality is that the fans of every team have their own host of issues that make being a fan an exercise in manic depression. Experience, and perhaps a touch of perspective can help fans moderate the downs while still enjoying the highs (perhaps a dose of medication, prescribed or not can help too.
Our Sens
Coaching: We have a very young coach, so we can either let him work through his own ups and downs, or we can turn on him at first chance. The choice is an individual one, however, I feel as though it's the price that gets paid for having a coach new to the job. We have had several new ones that have flamed out, or have been terrible from the get go, and now we have one that has been terrific for his first few seasons, and is now dealing with his own adversity for the first time. I imagine that he will spend the summer looking at what went wrong, and work hard to make changes in his own style to help the team move forward. He seems like the kind of guy that takes his fair share of the blame.
He deserves the same chance we all do, to be able to take a step back this summer and make some corrections to the game this team plays. If we have another year of sliding then we can revisit the situation, but you can't be a long term coach without some downs to go with the ups.
Forwards: We have a great group of forwards in general, and we have little problem scoring. Spezza has been awesome since coming back from injury, and has been getting better and better. I know that some will hate him because "he had 4 drop passes" in a game, but I just ignore that confirmation bias stuff now. He has his faults, but they pale in comparison to his benefits. He continues to be our best forward. He looked good with Hemsky, and I'm hoping that continues to grow. Skill in the top 6 is what we need.
I would like us to be looking at lines like this going into camp baring moves (Hemsky/Michalek could be replaced with other players via trade/UFA):
Lazar - Spezza - Hemsky
Mac T - Turris - Ryan
Michalek - Zib - Hoffman
Stone - Smith - Neil
Lots of skill here, and a nice spread of speed and skill on each line.
Defence: We have a VERY young group here, and if we listen to what Murray has said, he likes the group but understands that they needs games under their collective belts before expecting more. He seems to view the defensive woes as growing pains, and I'm inclined to agree. We can 'build' a contender without giving our young players a chance to grow. The last couple years have created unrealistic expectations, but the reality is that we were running one fumes, and on rookie enthusiasm. We also had an unknown team to the rest of the league, whereas our players are known now, and we are expected to play competitively.
I would like to see our young guys be given the chance to grow. The reality is that we SHOULD be a bottom 10 team at this stage of our rebuild, and would be were it not for the strength of our goaltending and offence. Defence is where we really see the rebuild of our team, coincidentally, defence is the hardest and most expensive part to build. We already have some beautiful pieces, they just need to gain experience and develop.
Karlsson - Methot
Ceci - Gryba
Open spot/Phillips - Cowen
7th spot should be held by a guy like Carkner was for us.
Trades: We have the young assets to package to upgrade at any area on the team, it just has to be the right move. Sure there are options, but we need to make sure it's a Turris type deal. We'll have to trade some roster players, and we'll have to trade some prospects, simply because there isn't room. The time is this summer as some of the young guys need NHL burn time now, so I expect a trade for a good young player with contract, basically a Ryan or Turris type trade, a guy that will join us for the future.
Goaltending: Is awesome! Lehner needs time as we have seen this year, and as he's seen. Andy has been great for us, not that he hasn't had his downs, but he was allowed to work through it and has done so. Lehner will be great and will likely get more games next year. Ease him into the NHL role... Prospects are looking decent as well.
Leadership: This is a tough area to qualify. It seems like when we lose it's because the leadership sucks, and when we win, it's not the leadership. guys having off games, or a lack of intensity on the ice is attributed to leadership, or lack thereof. Essentially, it has opened up another avenue to criticize Spezza, Neil, and Phillips. The problem is that it's all conjecture. We really have no idea who has influence, and what is said and done behind closed doors. We hear rumours and turn them into hundreds of 'factual' posts. Without ever having been in a leadership position, it's difficult to understand what is required from a person. Also, the dynamic of a particular group requires different things from leaders, and this dynamic changes as bodies arrive and leave, and as people get older. Less what is said, more what is done. A leader first and foremost needs to lead by example.
Spezza, for all his detractors does this in my mind. Before you all harp on the drop passes and slow back checks, I will qualify this by saying that he has been injured, has to work within the constraints of his body, and is an offensive catalyst. Spezza is always driving the offence, is always dangerous in the offensive zone, and is always looking to set up players in position to score goals. The healthier physically he is, be more dynamic this becomes. He is NOT a two way force, he is an OFFENSIVE force, and his lead by example is from his area of strength. Anything else is unrealistic for the player in question, not that he is bad defensively. He's the guy the team looks to get them back into the game by scoring or creatings coring chances.
Neil is similar. He leads by example by doing what he is good at; hitting, crashing, and fighting. He can't be looked at to score goals, he can't be expected to bring clutch offence, and he can't be expected to fly down the wing. As long as he's working his skillset hard, he's doing his job, and leading by example. He's the guy the team looks to to set a physical tone, protect players, and punish.
Phillips is a tough area. His skills have deteriorated, and he can't play a punishing game. He is able to elevate, but just can't move fast enough anymore. It's good for the organization to create legacies, especially for players that want to stay, but he's a bottom pairing guy that has a TON of experience in the league. His leadership is likely best shown in the locker room, as well as playoff games as he tends to leave everything on the ice.
Keep in mind, Spezza is in his first year as a captain of the team. There is a learning curve as he realizes and experiences how the buck stops with him. If we remember back, Alfie struggled in his first years as captain, it's only after several years for good and bad, that we finally accepted him as 'the captain'. The A's are where they should be. Phillips and Neil are senator royalty and have bled for the team. The young guys can still be vocal, but they should aspire to have the longevity, the reverence, and the loyalty that these vets have shown. Young players need to have things to earn, and need to value the vets of the team, and the letters. We aren't the Oilers, our letters are given once earned over a consistent period of time.
Senator Culture and reverence is not the same as every other team. Each team has an identity and a way things go (like not stepping on the logo in the dressing room). We need to be careful how we judge things from the outside.
Guiding my understanding and emotions towards our team are:
- year 3 of rebuild
- lots of youth on the team
- year of transition
- new identity forming with new young core and new captain
- first bit of real diversity for this group from coach down
Clearly I had the morning off
Sorry to quote the whole thing, but this was one of the best and well thought out posts I've ever read on HF. Everyone should read this
No, YOU took the trading of the 1st as an indication that the rebuild was over. Neither Murray, nor Melnyk have given any indication that this is their thinking. In fact, Melnyk has stated that he's not interested in over paying for rentals, and Murray has indicated that patience needs to be shown towards our young defence.
Ryan, like Turris, was an opportunity to add a player to our core going forward for our overflowing assets. Consider that next year's 1st won't likely hit the NHL for several more years, well past when our current young players are finally coming into their own.
I took this as us looking to add players rather than selling, and allow our young players to develop over the next few years (especially our D) and we'll be ready to push in the playoffs.
Look, at some point in a rebuild you have to say that we're done selling off vets, we've acquired a ton of picks and drafted, now we have to let the riches develop. This is the skeleton of the rebuilt team right now. Some of the assets will be grouped for single players, but this is the team management has built to compete with.
We'll see how they develop... Way too early to write them off, just because we've had a tough season with a team FILLED with young players!
Murray again stated that we have to let the young defense grow. He said this yesterday.
What is the point in bringing an Ehrhoff for 7 years when you hope that Cowen/Ceci/Weir surpass him ?
Bringing in a defensemen at this point will just take away developmental time from one ofthe younger guys who will eventually have to go through growing pains.
I believe this is Ottawa's thinking. The reason you bring in hemsky is cause our forward depth is not as good.
What is the point in bringing an Ehrhoff for 7 years when you hope that Cowen/Ceci/Weir surpass him ?
Bringing in a defensemen at this point will just take away developmental time from one ofthe younger guys who will eventually have to go through growing pains.
I believe this is Ottawa's thinking. The reason you bring in hemsky is cause our forward depth is not as good.
I think our forwards are fine. At least we can make two genuine scoring lines, if only our coach wouldn't do things like putting Condra in the mix or putting Chris Neil on the PP.
Our forward depth is much better than our defensive. I can't believe that anyone would argue otherwise.
Gryba and Wiercioch as a pairing is just sad. Cowen isn't good enough to even be in the lineup anymore. Phillips is a shadow of his former self.
Our D is a mess. Has been for a long time. It should be our #1 priority going forward.
Our forward depth is much better than our defensive. I can't believe that anyone would argue otherwise.
Gryba and Wiercioch as a pairing is just sad. Cowen isn't good enough to even be in the lineup anymore. Phillips is a shadow of his former self.
Our D is a mess. Has been for a long time. It should be our #1 priority going forward.
I agree John but the problem still goes back to Melnyk and not allowing Murray the flexibility to help improve that end. I'm sure Murray would have made a move or two to bring in help in the back end if he was able to add salary. Maybe he could have traded for a guy like Andrew MacDonald or other young d-men that might be available. Ehrhoff would have been fine for me and probably wouldn't have costed as much as some people are thinking. I would have made a deal involving Prince to get him here. It would rid the team of a prospect who wants out while improving the back end. Ehrhoff's contract is also not as bad as some lead people to believe. His contract was front loaded and now it's slowly going to get into the cheaper years.
in terms of youth our defense has much more
but with the addition of hemsky our forwards look okay. We may still need to replace Michalek with a harder pf
outside of Zibby we dont really have any bluechippers upfront ..not counting lazar yet since he is a ways away from making an impact
CanadianHockey
Smith - Alfie
For all the ups and downs, I enjoy you all. Like a big dysfunctional family
...
Clearly I had the morning off
Agree with everything, except, perhaps, the second half of the introductory sentence.
I don't really see how anything is Melnyk's fault.
As much as some people think he's a "meddling owner" I think that he's actually pretty hands off in most respects.
Yes, he says and does a lot of weird things, but he's hardly a George Steinbrenner, Mark Cuban or Harold Ballard type.
Every business on the planet has a budget. That's a reality and you deal with it. Some are very good managers, some aren't.
Pierre Gauthier, for example, really had his hands tied financially when he was here, yet he was able to put together a truly competitive team.
Melnyk gives Murray "X" amount of dollars, Murray is the one that spends it.
The Greening, Cowen and Wiercioch contracts aren't looking real good right now. That's not on Eugene.
I don't know why people are so hesitant to point the finger where it belongs.
Our GM isn't very good at his job.
As much as some people think he's a "meddling owner" I think that he's actually pretty hands off in most respects.
Yes, he says and does a lot of weird things, but he's hardly a George Steinbrenner, Mark Cuban or Harold Ballard type.
Every business on the planet has a budget. That's a reality and you deal with it. Some are very good managers, some aren't.
Pierre Gauthier, for example, really had his hands tied financially when he was here, yet he was able to put together a truly competitive team.
Melnyk gives Murray "X" amount of dollars, Murray is the one that spends it.
The Greening, Cowen and Wiercioch contracts aren't looking real good right now. That's not on Eugene.
I don't know why people are so hesitant to point the finger where it belongs.
Our GM isn't very good at his job.
I think you're guessing at what the philosophy of the team is, and if you think that this season ranks as "fine" than I'm guessing you are certainly at odds with what Melnyk at least thinks for us.
Cool, don't bother making points, wouldn't want *that* kind of talk on a message board.
If you're talking about Ehrhoff, that was in specific reference to his mention in the original post where his contract is talked about as some kind of albatross when it's a valuable contract. I wasn't mentioning it as a realistic trade option (I personally feel we should have been sellers), although most of the people in the know agree that he was available to trade. Also he is a pretty great player, you should look at the on-ice/off-ice splits on Buffalo, they're absolutely comical.
Ah cool, the old "I'm going to dismiss everything you say and then act like it's something about maturity". What an arrogant, worthless post you just made.
I'm not dismissing the points, you're just clearly too emotional to have a calm discussion with at this point, judging by this post. It's not a stab at your opinions in general.
Nor is it arrogant, it's more like you trying to discuss something with your girlfriend when she's having a tantrum. Your post reads like someone freaking out after yesterdays loss.
We all use hyperbole, especially when upset, my point was that it doesn't make sense to discuss your points when they are all clearly exaggerated.
Let me assure you that I am not emotional and I regard nothing of what I said as hyperbole.
Fine I'll play...
Being relaxed during the worst of times is EXACTLY what being zen-like is all about...
1. Exaggerations:
Cowen HAS looked great at times, both in the WHL (where he was heavily praised by everyone, except you evidently). He had a great rookie year in Ottawa, and has shown flashes of that at times this year. He was very good in Bingo according to Bingo fans.
Gryba has been coming along very nicely and is playing in his first full NHL season. As for Boro & Wier, those are you opinions, I'll leave them be. Ceci, raising his stock some? Even the most pesimistic fan would have to admit that he has been great for his FIRST 20 OR SO GAMES IN THE NHL. Were you expecting more?
2. Exaggerations:
Spezza is NOT expensive. He makes $4 million real dollars next year and leads or forwards in scoring. Sure, he struggles while injured, but he has been very good for us since returning from injury. He is often our best player and has more star selections than anyone on the team. Being great on the PP is an odd thing to use to critique a player.
3. Exaggerations:
Melnyk is FAAAAR from the worst owner in sports, you're just another lucky and entitled fan of a sports team that while not CURRENTLY spending to the cap, remains competitive. Try taking a moment to look at many MLB owners for example. As has been shown time and time again, spending money does not equal victories. Melnyk has spent to the cap for years (yet you insult him by calling him a penny pintcher), and lately has come out and said that we will be a budget team and will not spend wildly or ridiculously on players. As other have pointed out, where would all of this extra money be spent this year? On who? And who would hold the blame in two years when we need all of that cash to re sign our young players? As for the Alfie crap, its all conjecture, and those with an agenda have decide to lay the blame on Melnyk. At the end of the day, the guy wanted to play elsewhere and so he did.
Your trade comment is elementary and made up. You have no idea who was available and for what. You have no idea if we failed to make trades due to financial constraints. What you DO know is that Murray said that he was able to pick up a good player for picks and was happy that he did not have to give up any of our young players. See, that's the thing with trades, you have to also give up players of your own, and it doesn't sound like Murray wanted to do that right now.
4. Exaggerations:
Karlsson has looked AT TIMES like our best player, he as also looked, as McLean likes to put it, like he's playing for the other team. He has not received ANY undue criticism this season. He has been out right terrible at times, and uncomited at others. Around the same time that Spezza came back is when he started to play more consistently at the level that he's capable of. Somehow blaming Spezza and Michalek for Karlsson's poor play is pathetic. He AND Spezza are why the powerplay is somewhat dangerous, Karlsson is hardly the catalyst on his own.
You do realize that we are on the verge of having 5 20 goal scorers right? It's hardly Karlsson doing all the scoring.
We have several 'average' calibre NHL defencemen.
Our goaltending is NOT aweful, though and had a tough time to start the season (he's got a .920 SP over his last 20 games or so).
As you can see, almost your entire post is exaggerated crap, I hope that you at least feel a little better now that someone has spent the time to call you out on all of it specifically. Next time you'll understand if I just leave a few lines saying that I won't get into your panicky hyperbole right?
Cowen couldn't score at the WHL level until his age 19 season which is suggestive of someone who has incredibly limited offensive upside, he similarly looked bad in the World Juniors, he has never looked great in the NHL and has so far shown negligible offensive tools combined with no defensive awareness while improving 0 aspects of his game, and he barely played in Binghamton.
Gryba's potential is as a bottom pairing guy who gets some SH time and never sees the offensive zone. That's fine, because we don't have a lot invested in him and those types are still useful to have, but there should be no expectations for him to be a top 4 guy. That is in line with what I said the first time. Ceci has looked good at times and I am pleased with his development, which my comments illustrated. He still makes a lot of mental errors and he is not yet a real powerplay threat but that is to be expected.
Spezza's cap hit is a little over 7 million, which is the expensive part, and of course if we're actually going the route of saying that he's a powerplay specialist than even 4 million would be overpaid. I fully disagree on your opinion of Spezza. He has flashes where he but he is getting eaten alive at even strength, to the point where despite getting the cushiest minutes possible, we're scoring 40% of the goals at even-strength with him on the ice, which is INCREDIBLY bad. Two years ago when he was actually getting relatively worse minutes we were scoring 55% of the goals at even-strength. If he can not improve on that 40% number than he is not worth playing.
I said he was one of the worst owners, although he seems fully intent on moving up. I was an Expos fan who suffered through Loria so I have seen worse, but Melnyk is still an imbecile who is hurting our team with every move. I don't know what season you're watching but the Senators are not competitive this year, they're actually the 8th worst team in the league by points, 7th worst by goal differential, and this is despite giving up our 1st rounder for this year. Unless you think there are 25 contenders in the NHL than I don't see how you can say we're "contending". There is no organizational direction; we're neither building for the future or going for it all, both Spezza and Ryan will be up for UFA in 2015 while Melnyk is still maintaining that we're a budget team, we somehow decided that our defense was fine going into the stretch run and we re-signed Chris Phillips to a 2 year contract for whatever ****ing reason. And of course, all along Melnyk is making ridiculous threats to the city to go along with whatever embarrassing comments he makes whenever someone puts a mic in front of him. Our solution to finding another defenseman in free agency was Joe Corvo. As for Alfredsson, we had a massive hole on the RW as soon as we let him go which prompted grand experiments like Conacher and Greening on our scoring lines and which we only just filled with 20 games of the season left (and at the cost of picks). Yes, you can build a respectable team without going to the cap, but those are 2 clear examples of how Melnyk's cheapness cost the current team, and even if we end up finding a MacArthur level steal every year (which we have not been able to do historically and which is not a sustainable model to use) we're still in a very bad position if we're going to spend Nashville Predators levels of money because Melnyk's other investments have landed him in the toilet. Hand wave these issues away all you want, we're a high revenue team that's spending like a minnow with no signs that it's going to get any better and what we're already seeing this year is the severe downside to that.
I don't even know what part of that you're responding to, I didn't really talk about the trade deadline in my original post, but man are you off track. Realistically we should have seen that we had many teams to jump in the playoff picture, we had already traded the main ammunition you would give for a clear "get in the playoffs at any cost move" (our 1st rounder) and that the short term futures of the team had been compromised. I wanted them to be sellers, we weren't. Of course, I do not know exactly what deals theoretically could have been available, since this is a fictional scenario in which we are sellers and we never know the details of any deal not made anyways.
The part about Christian Ehrhoff was a direct response to MSF's original post where he bashes the Ehrhoff contract for whatever reason, as Ehrhoff has proven himself to be a great defenseman whether it's on the best team in the league or the worst and his contract is very, very manageable despite it's length. At no point was I suggesting that we trade for Ehrhoff.
Karlsson has been on the whole our best player by a decent margin and I think . It is stupid to say he has received no undue criticism, because he's a high profile player with quite a bit of debate about his game and I believe that every top defenseman is linked too greatly to the team's success, even in comparison to top forwards and top goalies (a similar thing is happening to Shea Weber, who is likely having the best season of his career but it's being dismissed because his team blows). There were people complaining about his defense in the ****ing Olympics, when he didn't allow a goal against while on the ice, for example. The point about Spezza and Michalek is that they were supposed to be offensive anchors of the team at forward when in fact they have been terrible, which is a very important thing to consider when we're talking about the go to offensive line which Karlsson is frequently matched with. Karlsson has therefore had to carry a much bigger load of the offense than even 2011-12. Many of these marks against Karlsson were there in 2011-12 as well, but because the team is worse and because more is expected from them it's seen as a knock against him in particular. He remains our most valuable player, by a great deal in my opinion.
Having the clear best offensive defenseman in the league can help your scoring. A quick look at everybody's numbers with Karlsson on the ice and without tell a pretty effective story of who's generating the offense on this team. Karlsson now has 10 more points than our next best scorer, that's a massive gap.
Karlsson and Methot are the only ones who I would consider solid picks for being on an NHL top 4 in this the year of our Lord 2014. And Methot himself is pretty average.
Outside of the true dregs of the goaltending world (i.e. the Isles, Oilers, Flames) ours has been as bad as anyone. And of course coming off of last year the expectations were obviously quite high, even if a repeat was an incredibly unlikely event.
You come off as a pompous ass.
StefanW
Registered User
I am with Ice-Tray on this one. You appear to be way too emotional to engage in a rational discussion right now. Not that being rational is required. I'm just pointing it out because you seem completely unaware that you are coming across in almost the exact opposite way that you seem to think you are.
Baby Ryan
Registered User
I see.
If we could just take a moment and take a breather, and remember that this is year 3 of our rebuild as IceTray pointed out
.Also, the fact that at least we made the playoffs the past few years (not including last season) compared to the lau-leafs and oilers really puts the mind at ease
.Those are the same opinions I've had and expressed over the course of the season, in the last offseason and in the case of Cowen, over the past several seasons. Calling me emotional based on your reading of internet posts is guesswork.
I don't think it's emotional to call out a post like that, and I do maintain that his initial response was dismissive. If I sent him an angry PM or upended my table, that would be emotional.
I doubt the Senators brass would have characterized this as a rebuilding year (they certainly didn't treat as such either through their words or actions), and I would've agreed with them on that. This year was an attempt to get into dark horse contender status and the reactions should reflect that.If we could just take a moment and take a breather, and remember that this is year 3 of our rebuild as IceTray pointed out
Absolutely. The whining around here is Toronto-like. It's just unbelievable trying to even look at a GDT without 40 armchair GMs *****ing and moaning for 3 hours with stuff like:
- Our D sucks
- Omg, we're horrible
- Phillips should die in a fire
- Melnyk Sucks
- Trade Spezza
- Trade Everybody!
- PAULRUS IS SATAN
I work for the police. I talk people out of suicide every night...trust me, your lives aren't as bad as you're making out. Your hockey team is underachieving.
RELAX.
Baby Ryan
Registered User
Don't need to resort to name calling though.
Yes, I agree the Sens organization were too full of themselves and pushed the young guys too much.
But for us, as much of a disappointing of a season this has been compared to the last few, it certainly isn't a train-wreck by any means considering that WE know that this is a still a rebuild in progress.
HavlatMach9
streamable 3rah1
if we finish the season poorly, it'll be anxious times during summer as contract extension negotiations with Spezza, Anderson, Ryan, MacArthur, and Methot will begin. I'm confident we can sign a majority of them.
we'll need good summers from Karlsson, Cowen, Zibanejad, and Pageau and the natural development of Ceci and Stone, and perhaps even Lazar will help the team along next season
we'll need good summers from Karlsson, Cowen, Zibanejad, and Pageau and the natural development of Ceci and Stone, and perhaps even Lazar will help the team along next season
FunkySeeFunkyDoo
Registered User
This was my initial thought on the OP.
I love hockey and following the Sens has been a big part of my life that past 15 years.
But at the end of the day it's just a game.
Legend Killer
Registered User
- Nov 15, 2007
- 3,575
- 1
In the last year or so... We have lost...
- 2nd Round Pick
- Ben Bishop
- Daniel Alfredsson
- Sergei Gonchar
- 1st round pick
- Jakub Silfverberg
- Stefan Noesen
- 3rd round pick
- 5th round pick
- Cory Conacher
We have gotten
-Bobby Ryan
- Clarke MacCarthur
- 20ish games of Ales Hemsky
That is not something to relax about... That is about as poor of asset management as you can find...
- 2nd Round Pick
- Ben Bishop
- Daniel Alfredsson
- Sergei Gonchar
- 1st round pick
- Jakub Silfverberg
- Stefan Noesen
- 3rd round pick
- 5th round pick
- Cory Conacher
We have gotten
-Bobby Ryan
- Clarke MacCarthur
- 20ish games of Ales Hemsky
That is not something to relax about... That is about as poor of asset management as you can find...
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