Value of: RD David Savard

[Petrus]

just pull a vegas and put one guy on LTIR. We did it with Tyler Myers. He played a full game against L.A and suddenly "he's injured" we know whats going on, lol!!!

LOL.



The leafs have dipped into to LITR well already with Klingberg and Murray.
I don’t know if there are any candidates left.

 

[TheOrangeDesk]

of all fanbases, you should know what a real rebuild looks like
View attachment 829365

Yeah no shit. Oilers were garbage for 10 years under the dumbest management possible. You won't find Oilers fans disagreeing with that

 

[BLONG7]

Yeah no shit. Oilers were garbage for 10 years under the dumbest management possible. You won't find Oilers fans disagreeing with that

At least when you guys were garbage, you got many many 1st OA picks.................we had a clown who couldn't get us an extra 1st round pick in his 10 years.
No one, as a GM could have been worse than Marc Bergevin......

 

[Kosseca]

Is Chiarot still a benchmark after what Tanev returned?

This is an interesting question actually. Let me offer this, you can look at this two way.

First, what is the market willing to pay? Through that lens, I would argue that Tanev return do in fact set the market for D at this trade deadline, but I think that people may under estimate the value of that D prospect in the deal. From what I read, Conroy really wanted him, so he may have valued him quite a bit and thus may have left some "currency" on the table. Wasn't it reported that some team offered their 1st? So... what is the value of the Tanev return here?? Without knowing what where the other offer, this is still a bit open for debate, and could possibly be close to the Chiarot return.

Now, what I find more interesting though here is this: KH asked for a 1st for Chiarot. He got his 1st. He asked for a 1st for Monahan. he got it. He asked for a first for Lehkonen, he got a prospect that was recently drafted there and a 2nd. So going back to your question: Is Chiarot still a benchmark? I would say: once KH set a price, he get it or no deal. that is the benchmark. So in some way, yes, chiarot set the MO of KH and certainly give reason to believe that to move Savard, it will require the price "reported" in the media.

my conclusion is that all things considered, Chiarot is, while informative, irrelevant. We can't fully compare the Tanev deal to it and we dont know what KH is really asking for Savard. The only thing i pretty sure is that if KH as set a price.... there is no way around it.

 

[John Mandalorian]

This is an interesting question actually. Let me offer this, you can look at this two way.

First, what is the market willing to pay? Through that lens, I would argue that Tanev return do in fact set the market for D at this trade deadline, but I think that people may under estimate the value of that D prospect in the deal. From what I read, Conroy really wanted him, so he may have valued him quite a bit and thus may have left some "currency" on the table. Wasn't it reported that some team offered their 1st? So... what is the value of the Tanev return here?? Without knowing what where the other offer, this is still a bit open for debate, and could possibly be close to the Chiarot return.

Now, what I find more interesting though here is this: KH asked for a 1st for Chiarot. He got his 1st. He asked for a 1st for Monahan. he got it. He asked for a first for Lehkonen, he got a prospect that was recently drafted there and a 2nd. So going back to your question: Is Chiarot still a benchmark? I would say: once KH set a price, he get it or no deal. that is the benchmark. So in some way, yes, chiarot set the MO of KH and certainly give reason to believe that to move Savard, it will require the price "reported" in the media.

my conclusion is that all things considered, Chiarot is, while informative, irrelevant. We can't fully compare the Tanev deal to it and we dont know what KH is really asking for Savard. The only thing i pretty sure is that if KH as set a price.... there is no way around it.

Just to clarify. Tanev is a better player (or at least has a better reputation as such) than Chiarot and probably Savard.

Regarding Lehkonen, Barron was selected in the first round. That doesnt mean the Avs still valued him that way. Around the time he was traded, there was a lot of grumbling about his defensive play - gap control specifically. Fast forward two years, Habs fans are complaining about the same issues. But congrats on having acquired Barron. Hughes really worked the Avs on that deal.

 

[Chose]

Just to clarify. Tanev is a better player (or at least has a better reputation as such) than Chiarot and probably Savard.

Regarding Lehkonen, Barron was selected in the first round. That doesnt mean the Avs still valued him that way. Around the time he was traded, there was a lot of grumbling about his defensive play - gap control specifically. Fast forward two years, Habs fans are complaining about the same issues. But congrats on having acquired Barron. Hughes really worked the Avs on that deal.

As if a late first comes with nothing to work on.
You are always a delight to read.
Lekhonen did return a player recently drafted in the first round, + a 2nd round, even if you don't like it.

 

[Kosseca]

Just to clarify. Tanev is a better player (or at least has a better reputation as such) than Chiarot and probably Savard.

Regarding Lehkonen, Barron was selected in the first round. That doesnt mean the Avs still valued him that way. Around the time he was traded, there was a lot of grumbling about his defensive play - gap control specifically. Fast forward two years, Habs fans are complaining about the same issues. But congrats on having acquired Barron. Hughes really worked the Avs on that deal.

Not sure why you feel like I'm the enemy here when I'm trying to give you credit for asking a very relevant question and opening a interesting part of thinking here. Stating to think you have a bit of chip on the shoulder and can't even see when people are trying to engage you positively.

 

[pth2]

.... but I think that people may under estimate the value of that D prospect in the deal. From what I read, Conroy really wanted him, so he may have valued him quite a bit and thus may have left some "currency" on the table. Wasn't it reported that some team offered their 1st? So... what is the value of the Tanev return here?? Without knowing what where the other offer, this is still a bit open for debate, and could possibly be close to the Chiarot return.

Now, what I find more interesting though here is this: KH asked for a 1st for Chiarot. He got his 1st. He asked for a 1st for Monahan. he got it. He asked for a first for Lehkonen, he got a prospect that was recently drafted there and a 2nd. So going back to your question: Is Chiarot still a benchmark? I would say: once KH set a price, he get it or no deal. that is the benchmark. So in some way, yes, chiarot set the MO of KH and certainly give reason to believe that to move Savard, it will require the price "reported" in the media.

my conclusion is that all things considered, Chiarot is, while informative, irrelevant. We can't fully compare the Tanev deal to it and we dont know what KH is really asking for Savard. The only thing i pretty sure is that if KH as set a price.... there is no way around it.

I think one point we all usually underestimate is the actual value of various prospects, and how different GMs can value them, and we really can't know: they won't always tell us the core of their thinking. I mean, it's possible, Smilanic, that Montreal got in the Chiarot deal, was valued highly by Kent Hughes, or maybe not, though no one will ever say so outright.

 

[John Mandalorian]

As if a late first comes with nothing to work on.
You are always a delight to read.
Lekhonen did return a player recently drafted in the first round, + a 2nd round, even if you don't like it.

Glad you still see Barron accordIng to his draft position. Good luck to you.

 

[John Mandalorian]

Not sure why you feel like I'm the enemy here when I'm trying to give you credit for asking a very relevant question and opening a interesting part of thinking here. Stating to think you have a bit of chip on the shoulder and can't even see when people are trying to engage you positively.

My apologies. Yes, your comrades leave a big mess for you to work around.

It's absolutely relevant to bring up Tanev. And no amount of waiting is going to change that. Waiting won't make the Chiarot trade more recent than the Tanev trade. Do you think your comrades will choose to accept this? I'll let you guess.

 

[Kosseca]

My apologies. Yes, your comrades leave a big mess for you to work around.

It's absolutely relevant to bring up Tanev. And no amount of waiting is going to change that. Waiting won't make the Chiarot trade more recent than the Tanev trade. Do you think your comrades will choose to accept this? I'll let you guess.

I agree, Tanev is very relevant to the discussion as it give a sense of what buyers are willing to pay, and Chariot, not so much other then to say that KH tend to stick to his price once set. I dont give credit to the fact that he return a 1st and a suspect prospect. That is irrelevant.

So my point is, knowing that KH as a price, and that Tanev "real" value is unclear for the reasons I stated, i'm really curious to see how this unfold.

 

[Chose]

Glad you still see Barron accordIng to his draft position. Good luck to you.

He wasn't far from it and the time of the trade, and even if he wasn't quite anymore, he came with a 2nd round pick to round it up. Definatly got late 1st round pick value for Lekhonen...

Sorry it doesn't fit your narrative.

The Tanev trade is very relevant.
But he didn't return only a second round pick, he also returned a player recently drafted in the 2nd round as well. Why don't people see it as late 1st round pick value is beyond me.

 

[Walksss]

Savard is a better player than a broke down Tanev, with another year under control. If the stories are true of a double retention he's gonna return a 1st minimum. 2 years at $875k for a guy like Savard? That's a steal.

Habs pay another team a 5th for the second retention and profit like the absolute first rounder pirates they are.

 

[pth2]

Savard is a better player than a broke down Tanev, with another year under control. If the stories are true of a double retention he's gonna return a 1st minimum. 2 years at $875k for a guy like Savard? That's a steal.

Habs pay another team a 5th for the second retention and profit like the absolute first rounder pirates they are.

That 2nd retention wouldn't be on an expiring contract and as such would cost more than a 5th rounder.

 

[Kent Nilsson]

He wasn't far from it and the time of the trade, and even if he wasn't quite anymore, he came with a 2nd round pick to round it up. Definatly got late 1st round pick value for Lekhonen...

Sorry it doesn't fit your narrative.

The Tanev trade is very relevant.
But he didn't return only a second round pick, he also returned a player recently drafted in the 2nd round as well. Why don't people see it as late 1st round pick value is beyond me.

The draft rank of a prospect is largely irrelevant to their current value.

 

[Chose]

The draft rank of a prospect is largely irrelevant to their current value.

Classic HF rebutal ! Without even trying to establish a value.

Where would you pick Barron in a 2020 redraft ?
Capfriendly had him @ 26 (-1) on november 2023:

Thank You - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Thank you for the amazing 9 years

www.capfriendly.com

You can argue all you want, but Barron will be a full time NHLer next year.
He is a RH PMD.
He is 22. (At what age do tall Ds usually take off ?)
What are the odds a 26th pick makes it to the NHL ?
That it becomes a 4th D ?

Agreed. draft rank is irrelevant, but the drafted player has a value, that of where he is now in his development, of what he projects to be (risk factor taken into consideration, which is also evaluated with picks value). People act as if once drafted, prospects loose all their value. (Nothing but a B prospect, dime a dozen !)
Where would you redraft Grushnikov ? Do you think he makes it to the NHL on a rebuilding team with no depth in defensive Ds ? What would his final value be if he does ?

You're welcome !

 

[HuGort]

Savard at 75% retained would have huge value right now. He checks all the boxes. He's heavy right shot, with control and a ring. Nobody on defense market matches that.

 

[John Mandalorian]

He wasn't far from it and the time of the trade, and even if he wasn't quite anymore, he came with a 2nd round pick to round it up. Definatly got late 1st round pick value for Lekhonen...

Sorry it doesn't fit your narrative.

The Tanev trade is very relevant.
But he didn't return only a second round pick, he also returned a player recently drafted in the 2nd round as well. Why don't people see it as late 1st round pick value is beyond me.

What's my narrative? Or is this just an empty phrase you're parroting?

 

[Chose]

What's my narrative? Or is this just an empty phrase you're parroting?

Glad you still see Barron accordIng to his draft position. Good luck to you.

Just to clarify. Tanev is a better player (or at least has a better reputation as such) than Chiarot and probably Savard.

Regarding Lehkonen, Barron was selected in the first round. That doesnt mean the Avs still valued him that way. Around the time he was traded, there was a lot of grumbling about his defensive play - gap control specifically. Fast forward two years, Habs fans are complaining about the same issues. But congrats on having acquired Barron. Hughes really worked the Avs on that deal.

That Barron wasn't worth a late first round pick in the Lekhonen trade...
That habs fans are delusional. That KH should be named in a worst GMs short list.
That Tanev didn't return 1st rnd pick value, so Savard will not.
It's hard to follow discussions...

 

[pth2]

That Barron wasn't worth a late first round pick in the Lekhonen trade...
That habs fans are delusional. That KH should be named in a worst GMs short list.
It's hard to follow discussions...

It's always hard to follow what haters are saying, since they have no actual fixed point of view to make a point about, just incessant disagreement.

 

[John Mandalorian]

That Barron wasn't worth a late first round pick in the Lekhonen trade...
That habs fans are delusional. That KH should be named in a worst GMs short list.
That Tanev didn't return 1st rnd pick value, so Savard will not.
It's hard to follow discussions...

You're strongly relying on a straw man. Let me unburden you of that. Is it not possible that the Avs (who were closer to him at the time) and Habs perceived Barron's value differently?

Are you seriously arguing against this?

 

[Chose]

You're strongly relying on a straw man. Let me unburden you of that. Is it not possible that the Avs (who were closer to him at the time) and Habs perceived Barron's value differently?

Are you seriously arguing against this?

I am not, but I don't really care how they perceived him.
And you act as if you do know that, when you actually don't.
The thing is, he did have that value, and still does.
Maybe you are putting too much value on a late 1st round pick. Is it not possible that GMs don't ?
A late first round pick has around 35% chances to produce a player that makes it to the NHL.
Again, in a november 2023 redraft of 2020, Barron was still valued at 26th (-1).
Are you seriously arguing he has less than 35% chances to make it to the NHL ? Even at the time of the trade ?

 

[John Mandalorian]

I am not, but I don't really care how they perceived him.
And you act as if you do know that, when you actually don't.
The thing is, he did have that value, and still does.
Maybe you are putting too much value on a late 1st round pick. Is it not possible that GMs don't ?
A late first round pick has around 35% chances to produce a player that makes it to the NHL.
Again, in a 2023 redraft of 2020, Barron was still valued at 26th (-1).
Are you seriously arguing he has less than 35% chances to make it to the NHL ? Even at the time of the trade ?

Not once did I ever pretend to know what Sakic was thinking. I said there was grumbling about his warts. That's all I said. But it's also fair to ask and maybe even assume Sakic also saw the warts. Keep in mind, the positional value of a RH RD alone was in Barron's favor. So for the Avs to be willing to trade that, its pretty fair to assume that mgt was also seeing warts.


For reference (and you know I'm not manufactuting stuff after the fact), here is a comment on the Avs board that preceded the trade:

Rumor: - 2021-22 Trade Rumors and FA Part V: To Giroux or not to Giroux

The tricky thing with getting rid of EJ is that it only creates a one year window before that money has to go to Mackinnon. How do you spent that extra $5-6m in the offseason for just one year? Just trade someone for a draft pick. The same thing Tampa has done the last few off-seasons. If...

forums.hfboards.com

 

[Nico Cauzuki]

i think a few teams would be interested in Savard at 50% but if all he gets is a 2nd i rather keep him for our youngsters hes loved here and wants to stay here

 

[Chose]

Not once did I ever pretend to know what Sakic was thinking. I said there was grumbling about his warts. That's all I said. But it's also fair to ask and maybe even assume Sakic also saw the warts. Keep in mind, the positional value of a RH RD alone was in Barron's favor. So for the Avs to be willing to trade that, its pretty fair to assume that mgt was also seeing warts.

It's also fair to assume that a 21yo tall pmd drafted late in the 1st round has warts, nobody is denying that he does. How many NHL PMDs have warts ? Does that make them less valuables assets, less of an NHLer ? Nobody is expecting a perfect top pair D from Barron. But if he ends up a good 4th, we'll be happy. And he will have exceeeded expectations if he does. Expectations tied to a late 1st round pick. The value that he was pegged at.