Rating our D-men

[Dennis Bonvie]

Cap space on a roster has everything to do with it, I'm not sure how you can argue that.

Once the puck drops, Cap has nothing to do with it. That's what I said. Once the game begins, the Cap situation is already in place. Salary total is under the Cap, be it a dollar or $10 mil. Doesn't matter who scores the winning goal, highest or lowest paid player. Goal is worth the same, 2 points in the standings.

 

[Root]

What if I told you Liles is a good #2-3 while Seidenberg barely qualifies as a #6?

first of all, you aren't telling anyone anything. that nerdy ****ing chart is.

second of all, its pretty clear if you watch the games that Seidenberg isn't the same player since he blew out his knee, so that really isn't surprising.

I hate when people use these advanced stat charts and think they tell the whole story. I was reading an article the other day and it compared Duncan Keith to Yandle using the same chart. They had nearly identical numbers across the board. Yandle isn't close to the player Keith is in the defensive zone. advanced stats are driving me crazy.

 

[SoldiersOfFilth]

first of all, you aren't telling anyone anything. that nerdy ****ing chart is.

second of all, its pretty clear if you watch the games that Seidenberg isn't the same player since he blew out his knee, so that really isn't surprising.

I hate when people use these advanced stat charts and think they tell the whole story. I was reading an article the other day and it compared Duncan Keith to Yandle using the same chart. They had nearly identical numbers across the board. Yandle isn't close to the player Keith is in the defensive zone. advanced stats are driving me crazy.

Holy crap who peed in your Wheaties this morning?

 

[wintersej]

I rate the player based on what he earns , we simply can’t expect the same things out of two players that are on completely different ends of the pay scale. In a cap world, to me , it’s all about bang for the buck. Chara is still top dog on the Bruins D core but at the same time is simply not worth anywhere near his cap hit compared to his peers.

Chara D
Krug -A
Liles -A
K Miller B
Sieds -C
Morrow B
C Miller –B
Trotman –B
McQuaid C

20) Shayne Gostisbehere 925,000
21) Rasmus Ristolainen 925,000
22) Sami Vatanen 1,262,500
23) Victor Hedman 4,000,000
24) Jake Muzzin 4,000,000
25) Nick Leddy 5,500,000
26) Tory Krug 3,400,000
27) Kevin Shattenkirk 4,250,000
27) Kevin Shattenkirk 4,250,000
28) Justin Faulk 4,833,333
29) Zdeno Chara 6,916,667
30) Anton Stralman 4,500,000
31) John Carlson 3,966,667
32) Francois Beauchemin 4,500,000
33) Dougie Hamilton 5,750,000
34) Dion Phaneuf 7,000,000
35) Ryan McDonagh 4,700,000

The only player with a bigger cap hit than Chara is Phaneuf, who most would agree is way overpayed for what he brings. Chara is ranked 29th in points production. Most players from 20th to 35th ranked are making roughly 60% of what Chara makes or less. Some significantly less. Most of these guys are also staples on 1st wave PP and OT while Chara, it can be argued shouldn’t be used in either capacity. He also struggles with puck handling, clearing the zone and has become painfully slow.

A guy with some of the most extremely defensive orientated zone starts on the entire league is top 30 in points and this is a bad thing? Chara was vastly underpaid for his play early in his contract. He is potentially overpaid now, but not by nearly as much as you think. That's the nature of long term contracts.

 

[Root]

Holy crap who peed in your Wheaties this morning?

still trying to find the guy.

taking my anger out on you in the meantime...

 

[JOKER 192]

A guy with some of the most extremely defensive orientated zone starts on the entire league is top 30 in points and this is a bad thing? Chara was vastly underpaid for his play early in his contract. He is potentially overpaid now, but not by nearly as much as you think. That's the nature of long term contracts.

vastly underpaid ?? 8.5M for the 11/12 season. Who else was making that kind of money then? Chara has never been vastly underpaid , quite the contraire , he has always been vastly overpaid.

 

[Salem13]

still trying to find the guy.

taking my anger out on you in the meantime...

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2016/03...owing-man-urinating-on-factory-conveyor-belt/

DETROIT (WWJ) – A disturbing video that may have originated in Michigan is creating a buzz online.

The 47-second clip, which was posted at WorldStarUncut.com, appears to show a man urinating on a conveyor belt at the Kellogg’s facility in Battle Creek.

 

[slim399]

I wonder if packaging Krug for a better defenseman and replacing him with Yandle could be the answer.

Something like Krug, Koko and Debrusk for Shattenkirk

Chara-Shattenkirk
Yandle-Mcquaid
Morrow-C Miller
K Miller

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

Pretty obvious in my opinion that we really don't have a #1 or #2...

So, here are my ratings for our current D-men - what are yours?


Chara - a healthy, angry Chara is a #3 right now...a gimpy or somber Chara is a #4.
Krug - definitely becoming a #3, but still a #4 due to lack of defensive strength.
Seidenberg - has become a good #5 in my opinion.
McQuaid - an "ok" #5, but really a good #6.
Liles - similar to McQuaid - an "ok" #5, but a good #6.
Kevan Miller - a #6.
Colin Miller - a #5 or #6.
Trotman - a #6.
Morrow - wildcard here - could be a #3 one day...but right now a #5 or #6.


Would anyone retain K. Miller or Liles next year (UFA)?
What to do with Krug, Morrow, Trotman (all RFA)?

Personally I think Krug is a gem at only 24 and can be a very very good #3 for a long time or even a #2 if he really masters all facets of "his" game. I would like to see him stay long term.


Is this a chance for Sweeney to remake the whole D-core this offseason?

chara easily plays a top 2 roll on at least 20 teams... and would be the best dman on around 10 teams

i dont think any coach would feel comfortable putting krug on the ice in an important game against the other teams top line late with a 1 goal lead to protect... but he is a pp asset to be sure... 5/6 guy

seidenberg still plays most teams top 4

liles might be a top 4 on most teams... but not my team

everyone else should be bottom pair guys on any decent team

 

[GloveSave1]

Chara - #3, but only because he logs a tun of mins. In terms of quality, he's a low end #4. He's just a shell of his former self and it goes beyond age decline...I really think he's perminently damaged. His physical game is a memory...he's totally abandoned it by choice. Watching him get physically bumped off the puck for a goal against NYI, I believe, was just sad. The shot. Gone. He can still snipe a wrister up close, but the boomer is history. The mins are it, he logs mins, that's it for positives. He really needs to take the pack off and settle into a #4 role. The Bruins need to do the guy a favor and make that happen.

Seidenberg - a passable #3. His best days are offcially in the past. Easily knocked down and off stride...sad, because there was a day when you couldn't knock that tank off his skates. But he's still smart, sound defensively, makes the simple pass. Moving forward he still has okay wheels, his turning and retreating is where he's slow. Easily burnable on a turnover, like Chara. The most important thing with Seidenberg is he needs a no nonsense, responsible, partner he can trust to be where he's supposed to be. Seidenberg will run around and get out of position trying to do too much with a inexperienced partner. In reality, Seidenberg/Liles is the most solid pair the Bruins can ice.

McQuaid - #4. But he's best being a super strong 5. The Bruins are at their best when he can anchor the 3rd.

Liles - The guy looks like a #3 to me. Good wheels for his age. Makes the simple play quickly. Smart.

Krug - #4. But just like McQuaid, best on the 3rd pair. A Krug/McQuaid 3rd pair is the dream.

K. Miller. - #5. Just like Seidenberg he's capable of being more effective if he only has to worry about himself.

Morrow - #6. Good offensive skills, but useless in the D zone. Someone that needs to be carried. Gotta get tougher in his own end. Guys shrug him off like he's not there both carrying the puck and along the wall. The puck has to be delivered to his stick, making life real hard on his partner. The idea is to carry one of these young projects on a solid D corp in the regular season. The less solid your D corp, the more costly a guy like Morrow becomes. I'm not sure this guy is ever going to be "passable" playing D.

Trotman - #8. A defensive defenseman who makes poor decisions. Timid. I wouldn't even want to play him in an emergency. Just roll the dice with Morrow. At least he brings some O/speed. Both defensive hand grenades.

C. Miller - #7. Better offensive tools than Morrow, and I get the hint he might get-it on D easier than Morrow. Morrow is just farther along. I hold out hope for this guy.

 

[Fire Sweeney]

Strictly rating defensive play, not the irrelevant stats like points.

Chara - #3
Seidenberg - #5
Morrow - #5
Liles - # 5
Krug - #6
McQuaid - #7
Miller - #8
Trotman - #8

Having Rask changes the whole picture.

 

[Mathews28]

I'd like our Top 7 D on the Roster next year to be

Chara
New Top 4 (6/7 Million per yr)
Krug
Liles
Seidenberg
McQuaid
C. Miller

And we can definitely rebuild our D we have the assets and the money we can easily afford a 6-7 mill per year D man and still have plenty of cap room

I'd let K. Miller go I think people will be surprised when he gets a decent UFA deal from another team

I think Trotman is a dime a dozen id let go to free up another roster spot

And I'd look to sign and trade Morrow or bring him back if we chose not to resign Liles

But I'd like to see Liles back on a 1 year deal he has been great for this team

Maybe role next year

Chara- Liles
New Guy- Seidenberg
Krug-McQuaid

If the Bruins get a "new guy" at $6+ million per year, he better be good enough to bump Chara to the 2nd pairing or it's a huge overpayment for said "new guy."

 

[wintersej]

vastly underpaid ?? 8.5M for the 11/12 season. Who else was making that kind of money then? Chara has never been vastly underpaid , quite the contraire , he has always been vastly overpaid.

Only AAV matters, come on.

 

[13Hockey]

If the Bruins get a "new guy" at $6+ million per year, he better be good enough to bump Chara to the 2nd pairing or it's a huge overpayment for said "new guy."

He probably would be just rather spread out our Best 2 D than pair em together...I would predict the Top 4 would all play 20 plus mins

 

[Btown]

Chara is really useful on the PK and defensively. Our best shut down defence with his long stick blocking plays and he still gets a hit or two in a game that gets the crowd excited. We have been spoiled to see a superstar Chara for so many years getting points and being so dominant that people see him now on the tail of his contract and career and think he's a number 3-4, CraZy talk he's still a top pairing defensive Dman all day long.
He's our captain and deserves the support he's earned over his years here.
#Charalove

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

I rate the player based on what he earns , we simply can’t expect the same things out of two players that are on completely different ends of the pay scale. In a cap world, to me , it’s all about bang for the buck. Chara is still top dog on the Bruins D core but at the same time is simply not worth anywhere near his cap hit compared to his peers.

Chara D
Krug -A
Liles -A
K Miller B
Sieds -C
Morrow B
C Miller –B
Trotman –B
McQuaid C

20) Shayne Gostisbehere 925,000
21) Rasmus Ristolainen 925,000
22) Sami Vatanen 1,262,500
23) Victor Hedman 4,000,000
24) Jake Muzzin 4,000,000
25) Nick Leddy 5,500,000
26) Tory Krug 3,400,000
27) Kevin Shattenkirk 4,250,000
27) Kevin Shattenkirk 4,250,000
28) Justin Faulk 4,833,333
29) Zdeno Chara 6,916,667
30) Anton Stralman 4,500,000
31) John Carlson 3,966,667
32) Francois Beauchemin 4,500,000
33) Dougie Hamilton 5,750,000
34) Dion Phaneuf 7,000,000
35) Ryan McDonagh 4,700,000

The only player with a bigger cap hit than Chara is Phaneuf, who most would agree is way overpayed for what he brings. Chara is ranked 29th in points production. Most players from 20th to 35th ranked are making roughly 60% of what Chara makes or less. Some significantly less. Most of these guys are also staples on 1st wave PP and OT while Chara, it can be argued shouldn’t be used in either capacity. He also struggles with puck handling, clearing the zone and has become painfully slow.

guys command their salary based on what they have accomplished. at 48 years of age id be willing to play for the bruins for 100 dollars per game to cover my expenses... but id still be the most overpaid player in the nhl.

when chara and seidenberg were signed the vast majority of response here was overwhelmingly positive. if we let these guys walk, another team would be happy to pay them.

when you get what the market says you are worth you are not overpaid... just compensated based on your value at the time of your deal.

chara and seidenberg had their bargaining power based on having given us a ton of value on their former contracts.

but if fans dont understand how the real world nhl pay system works they might say that these guys are overpaid

 

[rickizbruin]

Krug is in the top 25 def. in scoring.
he is a plus 14.
and people are saying he is a number 5 or 6 ?

amazing..
i will take tory krug and his mobility over a lot of overpaid bruisers who can hit but not move the puck.

the kid is vastly under appreciated by the fan base.

same with Z. there is a ton of teams that would kill to still have him at 39 and one wonky knee.

 

[Spoon fed]

Rating defencemen individually is difficult as so much of their strengths (and weaknesses) are directly related to their partner, then their goaltender. Some parters are completely complementary and others are just awful (even when both are considered plus defensemen).

With that being said;

Chara #2/3/4 depending on the amount of rest he has had (it seems to me anyway). Can be a #5 on bad days...

Seidenberg #3/4. Seems to be our most consistent D. Never a #1/2. Never a #5/6. You always know what you are going to get from him. Sneaky shot as well.

Liles #3/4. Not the physical #3/4 like Dennis, but a fantastic puck mover / retriever. I'm very impressed with him to be honest. I'd 100% take him on a 1 / 2 year contract extension (reasonable of course).

Krug #3/4. Has come a long way from when he started. I think he has the highest IQ of the D's on this team, but his size does matter and despite his effort can be overpowered. Can overthink plays as well and make horrific turnovers at times, but those things come with D's that hold on to the puck longer. Always wants to make a play.

McQuaid #4/5. Solid, dependable but injury prone. Slow skater and can get turned around fairly easily. Mean SOB and the only D on this team that legitimately can put fear in the opponents. I think for his ability he has a good IQ and will eat the puck and make safe, solid plays when warranted. Like him, but he is overpaid by at least 1M per year.

K. Miller #5/6 Lowest IQ of the Defensive D guys we have. Just awful. As his window closes to make a decision his turnover ratio gets worse. Average skater at best. He is the guy I would dump the puck in on if I were the opposing coach (and it seems to be the case). Not a fan. I'll admit though as a #6 now, he is better slated and is much more effective.

Morrow #5 is an enigma for me. I see flashes of goodness then it seems to regress as quickly as it came. I like him with McQuaid best. Excellent skater and also benefits most from a solid partner.

C Miller #4/5. I think he has a higher ceiling than Morrow. Morrow has had much more opportunity and was thought highly of coming into the draft. Has fantastic wheels, great shot and can pivot with the best of them. I would keep him over Morrow personally.

Trotman? #6 Maybe. Also has some minor flashes and is a better skater than people give him credit for, but really makes awful choices with the puck when very obvious and better choices are in front of him.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Rating defencemen individually is difficult as so much of their strengths (and weaknesses) are directly related to their partner, then their goaltender. Some parters are completely complementary and others are just awful (even when both are considered plus defensemen).

With that being said;

Chara #2/3/4 depending on the amount of rest he has had (it seems to me anyway). Can be a #5 on bad days...

Seidenberg #3/4. Seems to be our most consistent D. Never a #1/2. Never a #5/6. You always know what you are going to get from him. Sneaky shot as well.

Liles #3/4. Not the physical #3/4 like Dennis, but a fantastic puck mover / retriever. I'm very impressed with him to be honest. I'd 100% take him on a 1 / 2 year contract extension (reasonable of course).

Krug #3/4. Has come a long way from when he started. I think he has the highest IQ of the D's on this team, but his size does matter and despite his effort can be overpowered. Can overthink plays as well and make horrific turnovers at times, but those things come with D's that hold on to the puck longer. Always wants to make a play.

McQuaid #4/5. Solid, dependable but injury prone. Slow skater and can get turned around fairly easily. Mean SOB and the only D on this team that legitimately can put fear in the opponents. I think for his ability he has a good IQ and will eat the puck and make safe, solid plays when warranted. Like him, but he is overpaid by at least 1M per year.

K. Miller #5/6 Lowest IQ of the Defensive D guys we have. Just awful. As his window closes to make a decision his turnover ratio gets worse. Average skater at best. He is the guy I would dump the puck in on if I were the opposing coach (and it seems to be the case). Not a fan. I'll admit though as a #6 now, he is better slated and is much more effective.

Morrow #5 is an enigma for me. I see flashes of goodness then it seems to regress as quickly as it came. I like him with McQuaid best. Excellent skater and also benefits most from a solid partner.

C Miller #4/5. I think he has a higher ceiling than Morrow. Morrow has had much more opportunity and was thought highly of coming into the draft. Has fantastic wheels, great shot and can pivot with the best of them. I would keep him over Morrow personally.

Trotman? #6 Maybe. Also has some minor flashes and is a better skater than people give him credit for, but really makes awful choices with the puck when very obvious and better choices are in front of him.

How does playing with Chara make him a 6 now?

 

[Central Scrutinizer]

1st pairing D: Chara

2nd pairing D:

3rd pairing D: Liles,Sedenberg, Krug,McQuaid,Killer,Chiller,Trotman,Morrow...

I think Seidenberg,Krug and McQuaid can play on the top 4 but with the right partner or with a "B" option for the games when they are clearly outmatched.

So some games it's Seids others its Krug and or McQuaid.

Clearly the Bruins have a huge hole on the top 4.

 

[BruinDust]

How does playing with Chara make him a 6 now?

I know right. People around here have been attributing Kevan Miller's improvement in his play the past few weeks as a result of a reduced role.

Total BS

He's still a No.6 on a properly slotted D-corps. But he's playing anything but a No.6 role on this team right now.

This team doesn't really have a No.1 or 2 D-man. Nor does it have a true No.6. It's basically a combination of 3s (Chara) 4s (Krug/Liles/McQuaid) and 5s (Seidenberg/K.Miller).

 

[JOKER 192]

Only AAV matters, come on.

True, but the AAV is determined by average of salary. So 8.5M is going to raise the AAV.

 

[JOKER 192]

guys command their salary based on what they have accomplished. at 48 years of age id be willing to play for the bruins for 100 dollars per game to cover my expenses... but id still be the most overpaid player in the nhl.

when chara and seidenberg were signed the vast majority of response here was overwhelmingly positive. if we let these guys walk, another team would be happy to pay them.

when you get what the market says you are worth you are not overpaid... just compensated based on your value at the time of your deal.

chara and seidenberg had their bargaining power based on having given us a ton of value on their former contracts.

but if fans dont understand how the real world nhl pay system works they might say that these guys are overpaid

While it is true that the vast majority were happy with those signings, I was not one of them and clearly said so at the time. I was more vocal about Chara than I was about Sieds but I never liked either of those deals from day one. It's not hind sight, I thought it was a mistake then and it played out almost exactly as I thought it would.

It's like buying stock when the price is soring, your almost sure to be loser or make marginal gains at best. I like to buy low, if there were teams who would have paid them ( which I don't doubt ) let them. Let it be their mistake not yours. Chara was way to old to be granted the contract he was given. Sure there are some players who are affective after the age of 35 but most aren't and nobody is as affective as they were when they were in their prime yet Chara got paid like he was still in his prime.

Sorry just don't see the ton of value Chara gave us in his previous contact. While he delivered, he was well compensated by the standards of that time.

I like to think outside the box , paying a player because some one else will is foolish at best. It's funny that some of the same people who supported that contract also supported trading Lucic at 27 because his contract wouldn't play out well, but taking on Chara's contract they didn't see all the red flags and still don't or at least can't admit it.

 

[Tim Vezina Thomas]

The only one I don't want back for sure is Trotman. K Miller I wouldn't be upset about losing either.