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Albatros said:
I wouldn't say that the DEL has taken any giant leap forward, mostly steady improvement over the years. If it has left Liiga behind it's mainly because of Liiga's own decline.
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2014–15 Champions Hockey League - Wikipedia

Back in 2014/15 the DEL teams were awful losing against teams from Denmark, England and Slovakia. All teams knocked out in group stage.

Now the del teams can make a deep run in the champions league and Mannheim has also reached the final. So the DEL is much stronger now close to the level of Liiga, Extraliga and NL
 
And the previous year the Eisbären finished very respectable fourth in the CHL, before that sixth.

It's little more than a coincidence that there happened to be multiple struggling teams in 2014/15 (Hamburg folded a year later, Krefeld has been fighting for survival ever since, Köln and Berlin had a bad season missing the playoffs), but in the DEL as a whole no radical change to better or worse took place.
 
Hasa92 said:
I'm talking about a time way before KHL tho, late 90's & early 00's back then the debate was which league was the second strongest league after NHL and Sm-Liiga was in that conversation back then. Nowadays Liiga might not be even among the top 5.
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Russian and Soviet league was strong back then aswell. Best after NHL together with SHL and Liiga. It was times when Russia/soviet, Sweden and Finland could fill entire team with non-NHLers and still battle for medals in CC/OG/WC

Czech extraliga was stronger back in the days too than it is today
 
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In the late 90s when the Russian league had as many as 28 teams the quality was partially dreadful. The best were still absolutely among the strongest in Europe, the rest not so much.
 
Bump. Since KHL is out of the question for the 99% of the western world from now until unknown future, it will change a lot of things.

This is the best possible news for Liiga and SHL, especially for Liiga. Finland already has the best group of players in Europe (besides Russia) and if even half of that big mass of KHL players returns to Liiga, it's huge. And even bigger thing for future is that good players aren't leaving after one good season, since KHL isn't an option anymore.

Obviously there's still NLA which is able to offer very large amount of money, but still it's a great thing for Liiga + SHL and why not to Czech league too. These two leagues are going to be again clear #2 and #3 in Europe.
 
Without the KHL option more players will simply go to Switzerland, Sweden, Germany due to higher salaries. Presumably expanding to 16 teams in the near future, Liiga won't be much better off in terms of talent either, any gains will flow into maintaining another team. The demise of the KHL is not a bad thing to be sure, but it also won't significantly change the dynamics between other European leagues.
 
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karhukissa said:
Bump. Since KHL is out of the question for the 99% of the western world from now until unknown future, it will change a lot of things.

This is the best possible news for Liiga and SHL, especially for Liiga. Finland already has the best group of players in Europe (besides Russia) and if even half of that big mass of KHL players returns to Liiga, it's huge. And even bigger thing for future is that good players aren't leaving after one good season, since KHL isn't an option anymore.

Obviously there's still NLA which is able to offer very large amount of money, but still it's a great thing for Liiga + SHL and why not to Czech league too. These two leagues are going to be again clear #2 and #3 in Europe.
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Liiga for sure going to be better than in years. And the fact that those play-off games drew massive arenas full of people don't hurt either. Tappara and Ilves especially going to have absolute top teams in Europe. (well Tappara allready established them as the second best team in Europe). Kärpät signed SKA's first line center (Kemppainen) a few other former KHL stars in the talks. Crazy, crazy times.
 
Albatros said:
Without the KHL option more players will simply go to Switzerland, Sweden, Germany due to higher salaries. Presumably expanding to 16 teams in the near future, Liiga won't be much better off in terms of talent either, any gains will flow into maintaining another team. The demise of the KHL is not a bad thing to be sure, but it also won't significantly change the dynamics between other European leagues.
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It has already changed the dynamics. There are already big players signed for Liiga, which wouldn't be possible without this situation in Russia. And there's limited amount of position for foreign players in NLA, and there are many players who simply wants to live in Finland and already got that big money from Russia.

I'd like to see that day when Liiga/KHL stars choose DEL team over Liiga team, maybe you want to give some examples? There isn't any. In terms of talent, i think we all can agree that Liiga comes after SHL. I don't count NA mercenaries, i'd rather just look at the talent pool of young players.
 
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A couple of guys in their 30s will choose to stay in Finland, the rest will go elsewhere for better salaries. Like Björninen who signed with Pelicans Lahti for two months and then went to Brynäs.

Regarding Finnish players in the DEL, Hännikäinen signed with Adler Mannheim right away so I wouldn't anticipate much hardship on the market this summer. German teams can outbid Liiga competition and that's ultimately what makes the difference.
 
Albatros said:
A couple of guys in their 30s will choose to stay in Finland, the rest will go elsewhere for better salaries. Like Björninen who signed with Pelicans Lahti for two months and then went to Brynäs.

Regarding Finnish players in the DEL, Hännikäinen signed with Adler Mannheim right away so I wouldn't anticipate much hardship on the market this summer. German teams can outbid Liiga competition and that's ultimately what makes the difference.
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German teams can outbid yes, but why there's so few Finns or Swedes? Because from DEL you aren't going to the NHL, simply because the level isn't as good as in Liiga for example. We can coun't how many players have gone to NHL directly from Liiga during past couple of years and that amount is 3rd after KHL and SHL.

If we are talking about guys who have completely given up on NHL = DEL. It's pretty much the same thing with NLA, few high end players doesn't compensate the fact that average swiss player is couple bars below Swedish/Finnish player.
 
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You're talking about the qualities of Liiga as a developmental league, but that's a very different thing than being a serious pro league like the competitions in Switzerland, Sweden, and Germany. Producing better NHL talent does little to improve Liiga's own standards when the best leave at 18 and the rest by their early 20s. Of course some of these kids are good fun to watch, but that's more akin to the North American junior leagues.
 
SHL
LIIGA
DEL
CZE EXTRALIGA
NLA

Pretty no brainer for now judging by recent events, CHL etc. Here's hoping Liiga will rise to challenge SHL in the (near) future, lots of good momentum thats for sure. With Jokerit joining, soon most of the teams are playing in huge, modern stadions.
 
Eye of Ra said:
Lets take it in the right thread.



Based on what? If we are looking at EHT, Og, World Juniors and WC its quite clear that Liiga is stronger than even SHL.
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Based on the Champions League a little bit, but mostly just the average quality of the players and games. Finlands olympic gold medal winning team had 2 Liiga players and were almost an entire KHL team.

If you think any national team tournament says anything about the quality of an entire league, you are judging things very strangely.
 
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Liiga is still comfortably ahead of the Allsvenskan, but also far behind the SHL. Top Allsvenskan teams could probably do well in Liiga, but most are clearly behind.
 
AB13 said:
Based on the Champions League a little bit, but mostly just the average quality of the players and games.
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CHL, what do you mean? Allsvenskan teams wouldve won the CHL and been in the finals twice? I doubt that. On average the allsvenskan guys moving to Liiga see their production drop to about half. I dont think that would happen if the leagues were equal. Even the absolute bottom tier teams from Liiga have rosters that would be top of the Allsvenskan. Vaasan Sport is a great example becose they tend to have alot of swedes; bottom feeders in Liiga, (would be) easily one of the best rosters in Allsvenskan. Any of their swedes for next season would be/have been stars in Allsvenskan.
 
AB13 said:
Based on the Champions League a little bit, but mostly just the average quality of the players and games. Finlands olympic gold medal winning team had 2 Liiga players and were almost an entire KHL team.

If you think any national team tournament says anything about the quality of an entire league, you are judging things very strangely.
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I think you should stop discussing with Eye of Ra. He clearly is either a complete moron or just your average troll.
 
How do you even rank KHL anymore? Mass exit of foreign players plus useless teams like Kunlun are really dropping the KHL in the ranking but the top 3 teams are definitely very good.
1.NHL
2.AHL
3.SHL
4.NLA
5.Liiga(many finns that played in the KHL seem to enjoy coming back to home plus DEL teams are not that far ahead of finnish clubs in salaries since their TV revenue is much lower)
6.DEL
7.Extraliga
8.Allsvenskan
9.ICE Hockey League
 
Top scorers:
AHL - Andrew Poturalski, TJ Tynan, Stefan Noesen, Seth Griffith, Kiefer Sherwood
DEL - Jason Akeson, Riley Sheen, Matt White, Žiga Jeglič, Marcel Noebels
KHL - Vadim Shipachyov, Andrey Kuzmenko, Corban Knight, Damir Zhafyarov, Nikita Mikhailis
Liiga - Anton Levtchi, Petrus Palmu, Lukáš Jašek, Michael Joly, Eemeli Suomi
NHL - Connor McDavid, Johnny Gaudreau, Jonathan Huberdeau, Leon Draisaitl, Kirill Kaprizov
NL - Roman Červenka, Henrik Tömmernes, Daniel Winnik, Christopher DiDomenico, Denis Malgin
SHL - Ryan Lasch, Max Véronneau, Linus Omark, Patrik Karlkvist, Jonathan Johnson

League MVP:
AHL - TJ Tynan
DEL - Riley Sheen
KHL - Vadim Shipachyov
Liiga - Petrus Palmu
NHL - Auston Matthews
SHL - Max Véronneau

Goaltender of the Year:
AHL - Dustin Wolf
DEL - Dustin Strahlmeier
KHL - Ivan Fedotov
Liiga - Christian Heljanko
NHL - Igor Shestyorkin
SHL - Jhonas Enroth

Defenseman of the Year:
AHL - Jordan Gross
DEL - Zach Redmond
Liiga - Vili Saarijärvi
NHL - Cale Makar
SHL - Jonathan Pudas

Rookie of the Year:
AHL - Jack Quinn
DEL - Philipp Dietl
KHL - Arseni Gritsyuk
Liiga - Joakim Kemell
NHL - Moritz Seider
SHL - Linus Karlsson

All-Star Team:
AHL - Dustin Wolf, Jordan Gross, Jordan Spence, TJ Tynan, Andrew Poturalski, Stefan Noesen
KHL - Ivan Fedotov, Nikita Nesterov, Yegor Yakovlev, Vadim Shipachyov, Andrey Kuzmenko, Nikolay Goldobin
Liiga - Christian Heljanko, Otto Leskinen, Vili Saarijärvi, Anton Levtchi, Lukáš Jašek, Petrus Palmu
NHL - Igor Shestyorkin, Roman Josi, Cale Makar, Auston Matthews, Johnny Gaudreau, Mitch Marner
 
Ranking of European leagues in ice hockey 2021-22:
KHL - 4 598 pt
SWE - 4 386 pt
SUI - 3 933 pt
FIN - 3 855 pt
CZE - 3 845 pt
GER - 3 707 pt
AUT - 1 991 pt
SWE II - 1 890 pt
SVK - 1 173 pt
CZE II - 1 136 pt
VHL - 1 135 pt
GBR - 1 116 pt
NOR - 1 093 pt
GER II - 1 086 pt
FRA - 1 019 pt
BLR - 971 pt
SUI II - 970 pt
KAZ - 924 pt
POL - 915 pt
DEN - 833 pt
FIN II - 793 pt
ALP - 729 pt
HUN/ROU - 725 pt
SWE III - 722 pt
UKR - 710 pt
LAT - 684 pt

The most real ranking of European clubs in ice hockey:
 
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NHL
AHL
KHL
SHL

Dont the KHL and SHL use International sized ice? less room = less time for players to do something. lots of good players in the AHL including up and coming NHLers.
KHL is a place for mostly has beens and failed projects. when you have Markus Granlund and Kenny Agostino in your top 20 and Corbin Knight who played like 40 NHL games who is top 3. really makes me have a hard time believing KHL is the 2nd best league in the world.
 
Arthur Morgan said:
NHL
AHL
KHL
SHL

Dont the KHL and SHL use International sized ice? less room = less time for players to do something. lots of good players in the AHL including up and coming NHLers.
KHL is a place for mostly has beens and failed projects. when you have Markus Granlund and Kenny Agostino in your top 20 and Corbin Knight who played like 40 NHL games who is top 3. really makes me have a hard time believing KHL is the 2nd best league in the world.
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Eh, the KHL is currently failing for reasons that have very little to do with hockey. If you have an issue with the talent level of players like Granlund, Agostino, and Knight, we can just as well compare their NHL careers to the AHL top point scorer Poturalski, top goal scorer Noesen, and league MVP Tynan, as all are around 30 years of age and thus at the same point of their careers.

Granlund 335 58+43=101
Noesen 207 31+23=23=54
Agostino 86 8+22=30
Knight 52 4+8=12
Poturalski 4 0+2=2
Tynan 21 0+1=1

It's evident that based on their performance at the highest level the KHL trio is up there with the very best AHL players.

Most European leagues do not have a standard rink size, but according to IIHF rules the rink should be 60 m / 196.9 ft long (NHL 60.96 m / 200 ft) and 25-30 m / 82-98.4 ft wide (NHL 25.91 m / 85 ft). Many older buildings still have undersized rinks, like the NHL used to have until the late 1990s. The old 60x30 Olympic standard is actually relatively uncommon.
 
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