ranking the best hockey leagues

[Albatros]

The Swiss and the German leagues can keep their own and are also attractive to foreign players (including Finns and Czechs), whereas the Finnish and the Czech leagues rely on fresh production from the juniors and returnees on their last legs. In the past Finland could still compete for quality foreigners, but in recent years it has increasingly become just an alternative to Allsvenskan. It doesn't help that both have more teams (15) than talent either - that even though there's also a Finnish team in the KHL and a Czech team in the ICEHL.

I think Erik Thorell, currently the best foreign player in Czechia is quite a decent example. From his native Sweden he went to Finland as he wasn't good enough to make the SHL and subsequently dominated the Finnish league. Then he moved to Switzerland where he wasn't good enough to earn a new contract. And now in Czechia he's again one of the very best in the league.

 

[Eye of Ra]

Just rankning european first leagues:

1: KHL
2: SHL
3: NLA
4: DEL
5: Liiga
6: Czech League
7: EBEL
8; Norway League
9; Denmark League
10; EIHL
11: Slovak League
12: Poland League (its better than ever)
13: ALPS League
14: French Leaague
15: Latvian league (same as polish league its better than ever)
16: Erste Liga
17; Belarus League
18: Kazaksthan League
19: Italian League (was better before but lost teams to EBEL and Alps league)
20: BeNe League
21: Ukraine League
22: Romanian League
23: IntHL
24: Spain League
25: Lithania League
26; Estonia League
27: Iceland League

 

[Czechboy]

German leagues can keep their own

Not arguing... genuinely asking.

Are there many German players that would be in the KHL or SEL based on merit?

Dominik Kahun and ????

I'm honestly not that familiar with my non NHL German players.

 

[Albatros]

Based on merit alone anyone better than the Alanov brothers would be good enough, that's a lot of players, but there would of course be no point in signing replacement level players all the way from Germany. So as for players that could actually get a contract if they wanted to, that would mostly be the national team roster, a few dozen names.

 

[Eye of Ra]

Not arguing... genuinely asking.

Are there many German players that would be in the KHL or SEL based on merit?

Dominik Kahun and ????

I'm honestly not that familiar with my non NHL German players.

there is 3 germans in SHL. Reider, Kuhnhackl and Loibl.

 

[MatchesMalone]

Just rankning european first leagues:

1: KHL
2: SHL
3: NLA
4: DEL
5: Liiga
6: Czech League
7: EBEL
8; Norway League
9; Denmark League
10; EIHL
11: Slovak League
12: Poland League (its better than ever)
13: ALPS League
14: French Leaague
15: Latvian league (same as polish league its better than ever)
16: Erste Liga
17; Belarus League
18: Kazaksthan League
19: Italian League (was better before but lost teams to EBEL and Alps league)
20: BeNe League
21: Ukraine League
22: Romanian League
23: IntHL
24: Spain League
25: Lithania League
26; Estonia League
27: Iceland League

NLA I can see, but DEL ahead of Liiga seems hard to believe.

Has Slovakia really fallen that far? I still tend to think of them as better than they probably really are. Seemed like it was a pretty solid league at one point for a while there.

And isn't AlpsHL a second tier of ICEHL, or what you still have listed as EBEL?

 

[Eye of Ra]

NLA I can see, but DEL ahead of Liiga seems hard to believe.

Has Slovakia really fallen that far? I still tend to think of them as better than they probably really are. Seemed like it was a pretty solid league at one point for a while there.

And isn't AlpsHL a second tier of ICEHL, or what you still have listed as EBEL?

DEL has lots of good imports.

I admit i was underating Slovakian league alot. It should be higher up in my list.

 

[IceHockeyDude]

NHL


KHL

SHL/AHL
NLA/AHL
Liiga
DEL

Finnish liiga is getting a bit underrated. The level of hockey is pretty good and most pro-players and prospects continue to NHL/AHL/KHL/NLA.. SHL does not seem to be the thing anymore even that is a pretty good league. I can't believe some think Finnish league is worse than DEL or Czech league with all respect.

 

[Albatros]

Finnish liiga is getting a bit underrated. The level of hockey is pretty good and most pro-players and prospects continue to NHL/AHL/KHL/NLA.. SHL does not seem to be the thing anymore even that is a pretty good league. I can't believe some think Finnish league is worse than DEL or Czech league with all respect.

The thing is that most players good enough really do go abroad and the quality of foreign imports has fallen considerably. Already the leagues you mentioned have over 150 Finnish players who all are thus missing from Liiga. Essentially the best 150 players.

Of course there are still a few exciting teenage prospects every year like Kemell and Niemelä right now, an occasional late bloomer too, but they're fighting a losing battle against the seasoned pros one finds in Germany.

 

[IceHockeyDude]

The thing is that most players good enough really do go abroad and the quality of foreign imports has fallen considerably. Already the leagues you mentioned have over 150 Finnish players who all are thus missing from Liiga. Essentially the best 150 players.

Of course there are still a few exciting teenage prospects every year like Kemell and Niemelä right now, an occasional late bloomer too, but they're fighting a losing battle against the seasoned pros one finds in Germany.

Yeah there are still a quite a many later round NHL-draft picks making carreer in Liiga and other prospects than just Kemell, Niemelä or Räty. Surely the level has dropped but it is better than DEL or Extraliiga.

 

[Albatros]

Yeah there are still a quite a many later round NHL-draft picks making carreer in Liiga and other prospects than just Kemell, Niemelä or Räty. Surely the level has dropped but it is better than DEL or Extraliiga.

If the draft is some kind of a tool of measurement, there are a number of first-round NHL picks in the DEL (Boychuk, Picard, Blum, Puempel, Howden, Després at least). Also guys that have won the Stanley Cup (Desjardins, Cumiskey, Smith).

Liiga has Schmaltz and that's it.

 

[IceHockeyDude]

If the draft is some kind of a tool of measurement, there are a number of first-round NHL picks in the DEL (Boychuk, Picard, Blum, Puempel, Howden, Després at least). Also guys that have won the Stanley Cup (Desjardins, Cumiskey, Smith).

Liiga has Schmaltz and that's it.

There are some foreigners like you mentioned in DEL that didn't live up to the expectations. Finnish liiga is full of former Finnish drafted players and it is a better jumping platform to KHL/SHL/NLA/NA. How many players from DEL do this? Also Liiga has alot of culture, history and hockey know-how. Having a few foreign players won't lift the league level up if the foundations aren't there.

 

[Albatros]

There are some foreigners like you mentioned in DEL that didn't live up to the expectations. Finnish liiga is full of former Finnish drafted players and it is a better jumping platform to KHL/SHL/NLA/NA. How many players from DEL do this? Also Liiga has alot of culture, history and hockey know-how. Having a few foreign players won't lift the league level up if the foundations aren't there.

Some junior players with NHL aspirations have gone from Germany to Sweden for better youth development opportunities, but other than that there's not much incentive to move to other European leagues as the grass is not much greener on the other side. From Liiga players leave because they get paid better elsewhere, that has made it a feeder league. This is something that has been discussed recently in the Finnish media as well:

Jopa Tshekissä ja Slovakiassa maksetaan parempaa palkkaa kuin SM-liigassa – parhaassa peli-iässä olevat suomalaiskiekkoilijat karkaavat ulkomaille

 

[Miro4Norris]

Champions hockey league success by nation

NLA is getting overrated because the retirement contracts for former NHLers. Finland do not have as good salaries but the level of finnish players is very much higher and it keeps Liiga on the top 5 with NHL, KHL, SHL, AHL
1 SHL
2 Liiga
3 Extraliga
4 NLA
5 Del
Champions hockey league success by nation
And this year again 3 SHL teams, 2 Liiga, 1 Extraliga, 1 DEL, 1 French team in quarter-finals

Nation	Winners	Runners-up	Out in SF	Out in QF	Out in R16
Sweden	5	2	4	7	7
Finland	1	1	2	6	11
Czech Republic	0	2	3	3	6
Germany	0	1	0	1	6
Switzerland	0	0	2	7	9
Austria	0	0	1	0	3
Norway	0	0	0	0	2
Belarus	0	0	0	0	1
France	0	0	0	0	1
Italy	0	0	0	0	1
United Kingdom	0	0	0	0	1

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Albatros]

Champions hockey league success by nation

NLA is getting overrated because the retirement contracts for former NHLers. Finland do not have as good salaries but the level of finnish players is very much higher and it keeps Liiga on the top 5 with NHL, KHL, SHL, AHL
1 SHL
2 Liiga
3 Extraliga
4 NLA
5 Del
Champions hockey league success by nation
And this year again 3 SHL teams, 2 Liiga, 1 Extraliga, 1 DEL, 1 French team in quarter-finals

Nation	Winners	Runners-up	Out in SF	Out in QF	Out in R16
Sweden	5	2	4	7	7
Finland	1	1	2	6	11
Czech Republic	0	2	3	3	6
Germany	0	1	0	1	6
Switzerland	0	0	2	7	9
Austria	0	0	1	0	3
Norway	0	0	0	0	2
Belarus	0	0	0	0	1
France	0	0	0	0	1
Italy	0	0	0	0	1
United Kingdom	0	0	0	0	1

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

You do know that the CHL has an actual ranking which is nothing like what you posted?

I would argue that even the level of Finnish players in Switzerland is significantly higher than any in Finland.

 

[Miro4Norris]

You do know that the CHL has an actual ranking which is nothing like what you posted?

I would argue that even the level of Finnish players in Switzerland is significantly higher than any in Finland.

Did you know that it barely values anything else than last 2 seasons? 7 seasons sampling size>2seasons. It's pretty much as relevant as IIHF World ranking that says Germany is better at hockey than Sweden and Czech republic

 

[Albatros]

Did you know that it barely values anything else than last 2 seasons? 6 seasons sampling size>2seasons

Points are awarded 100 % for the most recent season, 75 % for the year before, likewise 50 % and 25 %. I think it's a good formula to determine actual status and not what may have been 6 years ago. Of course historically the Finnish league used to be better, but it has really tanked.

Indeed, you can look at the Finnish players in Switzerland and the best in Finland:

SUI: Pesonen, Rajala, Filppula, Saarela, Vatanen, Hietanen, Sallinen, Korpikoski
FIN: Levtchi, Kangasniemi, Palmu, Niemelä, Mäenalanen, Merelä, Pitkänen, Ohtamaa

Even that comparison is not really in Liiga's favor.

 

[Miro4Norris]

Points are awarded 100 % for the most recent season, 75 % for the year before, likewise 50 % and 25 %. I think it's a good formula to determine actual status and not what may have been 6 years ago. Of course historically the Finnish league used to be better, but it has really tanked.

Indeed, you can look at the Finnish players in Switzerland and the best in Finland:

SUI: Pesonen, Rajala, Filppula, Saarela, Vatanen, Hietanen, Sallinen, Korpikoski
FIN: Levtchi, Kangasniemi, Palmu, Niemelä, Mäenalanen, Merelä, Pitkänen, Ohtamaa

Even that comparison is not really in Liiga's favor.

Which means that for example, 78% of Finland's points are based on last 2 season's. What has happened DURING last 7 seasons(not 7 seasons ago!) is way better sample as things really doesn't change that fast and 2 seasons have too much space for coincidences. My Germany/IIHF example should help you to understand that.

 

[Albatros]

The Czechs haven't won a medal since 2012 and Sweden last made the semifinals in 2018, it's quite natural that the rankings reflect that. You say that not much has changed in a few years, but if you look at your own ranking, in it Finland's supremacy is based primarily on the fact that JYP won the CHL in 2018. And I'm sure you know that JYP has collapsed completely even in the context of Finnish hockey. They spent more than they could afford and failed as an organization. KooKoo that is currently leading the league is not the kind of powerhouse team that Liiga used to have in the past, far from it.

 

[Ciccarelli]

One mistake that the lazy minded people here often do when overlooking the finnish league is, that they are completely unable to grasp on the reality that development league for players but it absolutely does not mean that it is of lower quality than the leagues that have older players (mainly NLA and DEL). The continuous stream of absolute all-star NHLers that grow in Finland, there is a whole host of guys that use Liiga as a stepping stone, playing here for a season or two. This has always been the case and is not a problem becose of the good scouting.

One interesting (somewhat relating but also speaking for it's own for Liigas high quality) is the amount of top scorers in other top European leagues that have played in Finland recently.

SHL: Patrik Karlkvist at eliteprospects.com A complete bust in one of the weakest Liiga teams last season
Michael Spacek at eliteprospects.com Released by Tappara. Was OKish, but didnt fit the team.
Ty Rattie at eliteprospects.com Wouldn't even care to talk about this guy, played for my hometown team. Massive disappoitment. Worse than the numbers would suggest.

A Whole host of others playing very well in the SHL.

KHL: Daniel Audette at eliteprospects.com Good production in Liiga. Even better in the KHL.
Lukas Klok at eliteprospects.com Good 2-way dman in Liiga. Game changer in KHL.
https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/58336/valtteri-kemilainen Hasn't lost a step going from Liiga to KHL.

A massive amount of other producing just as high in the KHL as they did in in Finland.

A lot of guys in some of the weaker leagues as well, NLA, DEL, Extraliga.

One example of the things how Liiga is being underrated. Player x (insert any name from above plus literally tens of others every season) while playing in Finland; garbage, see how low quality imports Liiga has -> fast forward a year or two when they play in another league and dominate; a star. Eventhough it's the same guys, only the platform has changed. This line of thinking is especially visible with Jokerit fans.

 

[Eye of Ra]

One mistake that the lazy minded people here often do when overlooking the finnish league is, that they are completely unable to grasp on the reality that development league for players but it absolutely does not mean that it is of lower quality than the leagues that have older players (mainly NLA and DEL). The continuous stream of absolute all-star NHLers that grow in Finland, there is a whole host of guys that use Liiga as a stepping stone, playing here for a season or two. This has always been the case and is not a problem becose of the good scouting.

One interesting (somewhat relating but also speaking for it's own for Liigas high quality) is the amount of top scorers in other top European leagues that have played in Finland recently.

SHL: Patrik Karlkvist at eliteprospects.com A complete bust in one of the weakest Liiga teams last season
Michael Spacek at eliteprospects.com Released by Tappara. Was OKish, but didnt fit the team.
Ty Rattie at eliteprospects.com Wouldn't even care to talk about this guy, played for my hometown team. Massive disappoitment. Worse than the numbers would suggest.

A Whole host of others playing very well in the SHL.

KHL: Daniel Audette at eliteprospects.com Good production in Liiga. Even better in the KHL.
Lukas Klok at eliteprospects.com Good 2-way dman in Liiga. Game changer in KHL.
Valtteri Kemiläinen at eliteprospects.com Hasn't lost a step going from Liiga to KHL.

A massive amount of other producing just as high in the KHL as they did in in Finland.

A lot of guys in some of the weaker leagues as well, NLA, DEL, Extraliga.

One example of the things how Liiga is being underrated. Player x (insert any name from above plus literally tens of others every season) while playing in Finland; garbage, see how low quality imports Liiga has -> fast forward a year or two when they play in another league and dominate; a star. Eventhough it's the same guys, only the platform has changed. This line of thinking is especially visible with Jokerit fans.

On the other hand, lots of good liiga players failed in SHL.

 

[Albatros]

One mistake that the lazy minded people here often do when overlooking the finnish league is, that they are completely unable to grasp on the reality that development league for players but it absolutely does not mean that it is of lower quality than the leagues that have older players (mainly NLA and DEL). The continuous stream of absolute all-star NHLers that grow in Finland, there is a whole host of guys that use Liiga as a stepping stone, playing here for a season or two. This has always been the case and is not a problem becose of the good scouting.

Are you suggesting that a couple of good prospects in a league of 15 teams is elevating it on par with competitions that consist largely of seasoned pros? Top Liiga players are generally guys in their mid-20s that oftentimes already went overseas but didn't make it there.

I would agree that the few teenagers, mainly Kemell, Räty, and Niemelä, that can make it big in the future are the one reason to still follow Liiga, but they alone are not elevating it anywhere near the NLA.

 

[Ciccarelli]

Are you suggesting that a couple of good prospects in a league of 15 teams is elevating it on par with competitions that consist largely of seasoned pros? Top Liiga players are generally guys in their mid-20s that oftentimes already went overseas but didn't make it there.

I would agree that the few teenagers, mainly Kemell, Räty, and Niemelä, that can make it big in the future are the one reason to still follow Liiga, but they alone are not elevating it anywhere near the NLA.

Well thats one thing that puts Liiga above leagues like NLA and DEL. Better player production, no argument there.

But what what I was actually getting at, is that you can go to what ever season in the past and look at the top-20 or even top-100 scoring and look at the names and you'll find a massive amount of players that are playing in NHL/SHL/KHL. Names that you over look when they play in Liiga. This season it's guys like Jasek, Smejkal, Kemell, Innala, Koivistoinen, Barach etc. etc. That dont have the name for them selves yet, but are every but as good as the big name imports NLA team sign. And they will prove that in a few years.

Barach is a great example as the next "Danforth", oveelooked. But in a couple of years scoring high in the KHL.

But yeah, I think I am just wasting my time here, arguing with someone that think Liiga isn't "anywhere near NLA".
When there is literally nothing, nothing suggesting that, but actually vise versa.

 

[Albatros]

Well thats one thing that puts Liiga above leagues like NLA and DEL. Better player production, no argument there.

Oui, but every good talent leaves when he's breaking out. The most talented leave when they're 18. If Liiga currently has three to five teenagers that will become international stars in the future you are greatly overestimating its impact to the general level of the league.

But what what I was actually getting at, is that you can go to what ever season in the past and look at the top-20 or even top-100 scoring and look at the names and you'll find a massive amount of players that are playing in NHL/SHL/KHL. Names that you over look when they play in Liiga. This season it's guys like Jasek, Smejkal, Kemell, Innala, Koivistoinen, Barach etc. etc. That dont have the name for them selves yet, but are every but as good as the big name imports NLA team sign. And they will prove that in a few years.

Barach is a great example as the next "Danforth", oveelooked. But in a couple of years scoring high in the KHL.

What matters though is how good they are right now. I'm sure some of them will be able to take the next step and move to a bigger league such as the SHL or the NLA in not too distant future. Maybe one or two of them will even make the NHL. But at this point you have players that are either very young like the 17-year-old Kemell, or players whose career thus far has been very underwhelming like the undrafted 26-year-old Barach who didn't make the AHL and chose Liiga over playing in the ECHL. All the best to them, but they are just raw projects at this point and will be gone instantly if they break out.

But yeah, I think I am just wasting my time here, arguing with someone that think Liiga isn't "anywhere near NLA".
When there is literally nothing, nothing suggesting that, but actually vise versa.

Just compare the level of Finnish players in Switzerland to any in Finland.

 

[Ciccarelli]

Oui, but every good talent leaves when he's breaking out. The most talented leave when they're 18. If Liiga currently has three to five teenagers that will become international stars in the future you are greatly overestimating its impact to the general level of the league.



What matters though is how good they are right now. I'm sure some of them will be able to take the next step and move to a bigger league such as the SHL or the NLA in not too distant future. Maybe one or two of them will even make the NHL. But at this point you have players that are either very young like the 17-year-old Kemell, or players whose career thus far has been very underwhelming like the undrafted 26-year-old Barach who didn't make the AHL and chose Liiga over playing in the ECHL. All the best to them, but they are just raw projects at this point and will be gone instantly if they break out.



Just compare the level of Finnish players in Switzerland to any in Finland.

See that's where you are wrong. In saying that there are 3-5 guys that will become international stars. That's the case for leagues like the NLA and DEL that have little to no own player production, just washed up imports. With Liiga you must atleast multuoly that number with ten.

Also, imagine thinking that the amount of young up and coming stars do nothing to raise the level of Liiga, but the literally hand full of finns are the game breaker in favor of NLA..
Besides, infact, they are not better in NLA. I'll take guys like Innala, Koivistoinen, Kemell and Nurmi over senior like Pesonen and Rajala every day of the week and twice on sundays. Guys like Kontiola and Palola are Liigas version of Rajala and Pesonen. Decent, older guys.

Pretty weak if thats your only argument ("better imports" and belittleing the fact that Liiga is on a whole other level as a development league). Dont even get me started on the level of coaching and domestic players. I am not holding my breath waiting for Switzerland to start winning gold medals from left and right internationally using only swiss coaches and players from the NLA.

As for Barach I spesifically wanted to bring him up here as an example of a guy that you would be little, but who is infact a better import than many of the washed up guys in NLA and DEL. He is an up and coming guy, with future ahead of him, not behind. The next Justin Danforth, who I am sure you wouldve overlooked aswell when he firts cane to Finland.