Ranking Dubas' best transactions - #1

[DarkKnight]

I don’t think Dubas wasted potential. He can’t play on the ice. We didn’t have a ton of playoff success under him but that’s just as much on the players as it is Dubas. It’s 50/50.

I’m not a Dubas super fan but he gave us rosters that were good enough to compete each year except for the Columbus series. Our star players underperformed. I’d say the Montreal And Florida series in particular are squarely on the players and coaching staff not Dubas.

But he inherited the best pieces, the one’s teams desperately covet. His job was always to augment, I’m not saying he didn’t do good things there, but man oh man I’m hard pressed to recall a more envious walk in position for a rookie GM.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Would say that his best move was consistently setting the team up for success each offseason.

Yes. More money to spend each offseson, and a longer offseason to enjoy it.

But that's individual success, rather than team success.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Really? I rather everything Dubas did compared to the John Ferguson Jr Era and the Brian Burke era or even the Nonis Era. None of Dubas’ moves rank in the top 10 of worst Leafs moves in history.

Like are we that forgetful? We traded two unprotected firsts for Kessel!!! We traded Alex Steen and Carlo Coaliacovo for f***ing LEE STEMPNIAK. We have Mike Komarsarik 5 million to basically play a few games for us lol.

I get it we haven’t had success but I’d take everything Dubas has done compared to the past. I think people forget how bad 2005 to 2016 was.

I agree that Dubas didn't make any spectacularly bad trades, the way JFJ and Burke did. His trades tended to be mediocre to poor, but not really bad, or very good.

His spectacularly bad moves were of a different type - signing Tavares and badly overpaying RFAs, then trading away the future for short-term rentals to try to hide the stink.

 

[francis246]

But he inherited the best pieces, the one’s teams desperately covet. His job was always to augment, I’m not saying he didn’t do good things there, but man oh man I’m hard pressed to recall a more envious walk in position for a rookie GM.

For sure no denying it! I’m Moore of a realist, I think the core players are flawed. I think as unfortunate as it is, they picked talented players but they were the wrong players. They are missing that element of dawg in their game. I think we’ve seen enough evidence that it probably didn’t matter who the GM was, this group is flawed, they don’t have the characteristics to be winners. So for me it wouldn’t have mattered whether it was Lou, Hunter, Futa, Fenton. The result would have been the same.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Burke wasted a shit ton of years trying to accelerate a rebuild. Burke had cap space and a ton of draft capital. Nothing to show for it. No top prospects, no long lasting players, no deep playoff runs. That to me was the most wasted era.

Dubas wasted a shit ton of years trying to accelerate a rebuild. Dubas had cap space and a ton of draft capital until he signed Tavares and overpaid the RFAs. Knies is the closest thing we have to a top prospect, and Dubas' part in getting him is open to debate. Outside the overpaid top four (and Rielly) no long lasting players, and even with them, no deep playoff runs.

 

[notDatsyuk]

The thing is he inherited a 105pt roster that was already good enough to compete. Unless the Big 3 got worse that was kind of the floor because they hadn't even broken out yet. Also, how is the coaching staff not on Dubas? He can't be separated from his coach and his players. Its all his creation, and changing the bits that aren't the problem and not getting better results comes back to the GM.

Of course the current GM is running back the coach and the core players so maybe changing the bits is all we get.

Of course the current GM is running back the core players - they're all on NMCs (thanks to Dubas), and three are so overpaid (thanks to Dubas) that you can't get value for them even if they were tradable.

 

[ACC1224]

But he inherited the best pieces, the one’s teams desperately covet. His job was always to augment, I’m not saying he didn’t do good things there, but man oh man I’m hard pressed to recall a more envious walk in position for a rookie GM.

He had the table set for him more than any GM in the history of the game.

 

[francis246]

Dubas wasted a shit ton of years trying to accelerate a rebuild. Dubas had cap space and a ton of draft capital until he signed Tavares and overpaid the RFAs. Knies is the closest thing we have to a top prospect, and Dubas' part in getting him is open to debate. Outside the overpaid top four (and Rielly) no long lasting players, and even with them, no deep playoff runs.

I’ll take 2nd or 3rd in the division every year, being a top 5 team every year and consistent playoff team every year even with the lack of playoff success over finishing 9th or lower in the East year after year and not having a first round pick lol. It’s not even a question.

2016-Present has been the most entertaining years for me personally as a leafs fan even with all the heart break. Everything prior to that was horrible.

And like I said another post in this thread, to me the core we drafted is flawed, we drafted high end skill without accounting for compete level. So as I said, it probably didn’t matter who the GM is or who you surround the core with because the core would still be the core.

 

[notbias]

None of those GMs wasted the potential Dubas was handed. That’s why he’s looked at as doing such a poor job.

"Dubas was handed all this elite talent! He should have won in the playoffs!"

"The elite talent is not good in the playoffs!"

It is always the same, and always hilarious. Varies by thread.

 

[Dekes For Days]

He had the table set for him more than any GM in the history of the game.

Not even remotely close. Heck, our current GM literally had a better table set for him.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I’ll take 2nd or 3rd in the division every year, being a top 5 team every year and consistent playoff team every year even with the lack of playoff success over finishing 9th or lower in the East year after year and not having a first round pick lol. It’s not even a question.

2016-Present has been the most entertaining years for me personally as a leafs fan even with all the heart break. Everything prior to that was horrible.

And like I said another post in this thread, to me the core we drafted is flawed, we drafted high end skill without accounting for compete level. So as I said, it probably didn’t matter who the GM is or who you surround the core with because the core would still be the core.

Only a 'top 5 team' the last two years, and 'consistent playoff team' means consistently poor?

We've had two first round picks in the last five years! One first, two seconds, and one third in the last three years! From 2009 to 2018 we had ten first round picks in ten years. Yes, Burke (very stupidly imo) traded two for Kessel, but let's be factual.

Entertaining yes, but that's largely because of what Dubas inherited, not what he did.

Yes, the "core we drafted is flawed", but Dubas didn't help by adding Tavares instead of 'compete level players' (and defence and goaltending).

 

[francis246]

Only a 'top 5 team' the last two years, and 'consistent playoff team' means consistently poor?

We've had two first round picks in the last five years! One first, two seconds, and one third in the last three years! From 2009 to 2018 we had ten first round picks in ten years. Yes, Burke (very stupidly imo) traded two for Kessel, but let's be factual.

Entertaining yes, but that's largely because of what Dubas inherited, not what he did.

Yes, the "core we drafted is flawed", but Dubas didn't help by adding Tavares instead of 'compete level players' (and defence and goaltending).

Do you get high off being completely miserable about everything? I can’t for the life of me understand people who feel the need to shit on every aspect of the team. This hate you have for John Tavares is really weird, you find a way to bring him into every conversation you have, boarderline obsessive.

Dubas put together some good teams, they couldn’t get it done ultimately, which sucks, but he wasn’t the worst GM or the best GM in our history. It’s a lot of exaggeration on his performance as GM, but he wasn’t that bad. I repeat myself for a third time. I’m not that confident other GM’s do better because we know the core to be who they are. Without Tavares this team is significantly worse IMO, especially up front. Maybe we get better defense and some better goaltending (doubt it, because I think we probably spend our cap on a bunch of mediocre players) but I think goal scoring is still a challenge. For me it always will come down to the RFA signings being the biggest mess up. Paying them too much cost us Hyman.

 

[IPS]

Not even remotely close. Heck, our current GM literally had a better table set for him.

Expiring RFA contracts or expiring UFA contracts, which are better?

I'm pretty sure anybody with an IQ above room temperature picks the former.

 

[notbias]

Expiring RFA contracts or expiring UFA contracts, which are better?

I'm pretty sure anybody with an IQ above room temperature picks the former.

Our GM has the knowledge that these are all "losers who only care about money and not winning", I think that is much more valuable.

Let's see if he is smart and walks away from them because signing losers is not how you win.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Expiring RFA contracts or expiring UFA contracts, which are better?

Treliving has an extra year for the core re-signings compared to Dubas, first off.

It's also a lot easier to find a few million to go from their RFA to UFA contracts than it is to find tens of millions to go from ELCs to their RFA contracts, before even getting into factors like one dealing with a multi-year flat cap and one dealing with a skyrocketing cap that single-handedly covers the increases.

Not to mention one re-signing them after the previous GM and coach selectively applied signing bonuses, had obscure nonsense rules, misused them, neutered their earning potential and mentally abused them, compared to the other signing after a good relationship had been built up with them by the previous GM and they'd been used appropriately by the coach on a top tier team.

And then you add in how Lou left pretty much everything else in a worse state than Dubas did, and it's not even close.

 

[TakeTheBody]

Has to be Knies. Muzzin was great for us, but I don't think the Kings felt ripped off in that trade. I guess it was the rare trade that helped both teams. Hope this isn't considered trolling. Eye roll,

 

[JKG33]

Really? I rather everything Dubas did compared to the John Ferguson Jr Era and the Brian Burke era or even the Nonis Era. None of Dubas’ moves rank in the top 10 of worst Leafs moves in history.

Like are we that forgetful? We traded two unprotected firsts for Kessel!!! We traded Alex Steen and Carlo Coaliacovo for f***ing LEE STEMPNIAK. We have Mike Komarsarik 5 million to basically play a few games for us lol.

I get it we haven’t had success but I’d take everything Dubas has done compared to the past. I think people forget how bad 2005 to 2016 was.

That bar is literally on the floor. Instead of comparing him to the idiots before, compare him to the good GMs around the league. The fact that in his 5 seasons as GM, his best move is apparently drafting a player in the 2nd round that we've only seen for a total of 10 games? Thats absolutely a pathetic collection of "best" moves. Lou Lam (and I hate the guy) is the only GM of this team these last 20 years to have made any significant number of truly positive moves. That doesn't make Dubas any better/worse.

For what its worth and I've said this before, I'd take those shitty Fletcher/Burke/Nonis years over what we have now. At least then there was hope that one day moves could be made to improve the team, and the players actually looked like they gave a shit. But now? We're stuck with these losers, and I doubt after 7-8 years together they'll suddenly now figure out how to win when it counts.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Do you get high off being completely miserable about everything? I can’t for the life of me understand people who feel the need to shit on every aspect of the team. This hate you have for John Tavares is really weird, you find a way to bring him into every conversation you have, boarderline obsessive.

Dubas put together some good teams, they couldn’t get it done ultimately, which sucks, but he wasn’t the worst GM or the best GM in our history. It’s a lot of exaggeration on his performance as GM, but he wasn’t that bad. I repeat myself for a third time. I’m not that confident other GM’s do better because we know the core to be who they are. Without Tavares this team is significantly worse IMO, especially up front. Maybe we get better defense and some better goaltending (doubt it, because I think we probably spend our cap on a bunch of mediocre players) but I think goal scoring is still a challenge. For me it always will come down to the RFA signings being the biggest mess up. Paying them too much cost us Hyman.

If being factual equates to miserable, then mea culpa, but I certainly don't "shit on every aspect of the team".

I have no problem with Tavares. I have a big problem with Dubas signing him when he was not what the team needed.

 

[francis246]

That bar is literally on the floor. Instead of comparing him to the idiots before, compare him to the good GMs around the league. The fact that in his 5 seasons as GM, his best move is apparently drafting a player in the 2nd round that we've only seen for a total of 10 games? Thats absolutely a pathetic collection of "best" moves. Lou Lam (and I hate the guy) is the only GM of this team these last 20 years to have made any significant number of truly positive moves. That doesn't make Dubas any better/worse.

For what its worth and I've said this before, I'd take those shitty Fletcher/Burke/Nonis years over what we have now. At least then there was hope that one day moves could be made to improve the team, and the players actually looked like they gave a shit. But now? We're stuck with these losers, and I doubt after 7-8 years together they'll suddenly now figure out how to win when it counts.

The players gave a shit in those era’s? Are we remembering things correctly? The players in that era gave absolutely zero shits about the team. That was evident by the multiple 18 wheelers that fell off the cliff every season. Followed up by the Horachek era where those players literally quit on the organization and the coach.

I get the feeling of wasted years, but to make a comment like that is beyond idiotic. The JFJ/Fletcher old man come back/Burke/Nonis era was some of the WORST hockey in Toronto. No one in the organization cared about anything and it was very evident.

Yes there’s a lot of disappointment in the results but we are significantly further ahead then where we were in those years. There was literally no positive outlooks

 

[keonsbitterness]

- Playoff format changes

Most believed that would benefit us during both covid years.

 

[francis246]

Most believed that would benefit us during both covid years.

I was speaking about the current format (division playoff format) not the Covid formats

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Couple of these moves look worse in retrospect due to bad luck. I don't mean the pandemic and the contracts of Tavares and the Big Three, as he could've always pivoted. I'm talking about moves were unforeseen health concerns really put a damper on the deals. Muzzin trade was one of the few TDL deals of Dubas were we got a player in his prime and were able to keep him beyond one year, but it doesn't get as lauded because the Leafs failed to accomplish anything with him and his body has broken down so we don't get to have a still productive player on our roster. Kapanen for 15th overall also could've/should've been a slam dunk, selling high on a player who didn't figure into future plans for a pretty high first rounder is a move many teams would do. But surprise surprise, the guy we drafted ends up having a f***ing brain tumor and his life is in jeopardy, much less his career. It was a good pick too, based on talent and the fact that he played a position where we'd need reinforcements.

 

[TheTotalPackage]

I'd say the Tavares was by far his best move, which also turned out to be his worst move.

Best move because signing a hometown boy, captain material, PPG 1st line centre (amazing to be able to push him to 2C here), in the prime of his career, for only money, is something you have to jump on any chance you get.

Worst move because it meant tying up half of the team's cap to four guys (I will be the ever slightly lenient because no one foresaw a COVID flat cap), practically handcuffing him from making the big improvements to the team to take them over the top. He did well being able to trade for Muzzin and Brodie, but constantly bargain basement shopping for the bottom six and 3D pairing, and never solving the goalie situation properly, has held the team back. All because the wiggle room for these was so razor thin.

EDIT: To add, I thought the Muzzin move was average at best the time it was made. Not so much the price, despite it looking even worse in retrospect, but because it was blatantly evident Muzzin had so much mileage on him he was going to fall off a cliff quickly, which he did. Despite being only 29 at the time of the trade.

 

[nuck]

Has to be Knies. Muzzin was great for us, but I don't think the Kings felt ripped off in that trade. I guess it was the rare trade that helped both teams. Hope this isn't considered trolling. Eye roll,

I am not sure how much credit Kyle gets for Knies. He was a late 2nd round pick out of the USHL so I expect Dubas never saw him play. At 57 there would be a couple of dozen players that might be there so that was the regional scout for the area and the head scout that get the win there. He was a great pick but I think Kyle just read the name off the list. Now Muzzin was a deal where he bid against a whole bunch of other GMs and added much needed player at a decent price.

 

[tmlms13]

John Ferguson Jr was given a pretty good team and one that had success in the playoffs. And made it worse basically every year he was in charge.

To the people calling Dubas the worst gm in leafs history you want to go back to that?