Rank the European teams...

[Atas2000]

People are very aware of how strong Russias hockey is, about 3rd strongest in Europe.

Wheres the hate?

I meant the perception of russian players in general. Kovy is a traitor to humanity because he decided to play at home, right? Ovechkin is a one trick pony, right? There is a long list of HF-standrds. And most of them wouldn't exist or would sound very differently if they were not about russian players. so everybody jumps on the opportunity to bash Russia. It's okay. It's better to be underrated. 3rd strogest in Europe? Really? Okay.

 

[The Bad Guy*]

I meant the perception of russian players in general. Kovy is a traitor to humanity because he decided to play at home, right? Ovechkin is a one trick pony, right? There is a long list of HF-standrds. And most of them wouldn't exist or would sound very differently if they were not about russian players. so everybody jumps on the opportunity to bash Russia. It's okay. It's better to be underrated. 3rd strogest in Europe? Really? Okay.

I hear way worse things said about crosby then he is a one trick pony around here, I won't even get into the hate and standards that get applied to Canada around here for example. Get in line and take a number when it comes to abuse of the team you cheer for around here .

And yes, Russia, 3rd strongest in europe, why is this so much of a shock to you?

In 5 olympics they have a bronze and a silver to show for it, what do Sweden and Finland have?. Not only that but the last 2 olympics Russia has failed to medal, in one case getting trounced by Canada and in the other getting bounced out by a Finland lacking it's top players against a fully manned Russian team........................and at home no less!!

You said people know just how strong Russia really is and you were correct in that,fans think they are about as strong as they have shown us to be, about 3rd in Europe at the moment.

The burden of proof is on you to explain how you think all these posters who currently have Russia ranked as the 3rd best team in Europe are only saying that because they have something against Russian hockey.

Results completely back up their personal opinion.

 

[m4tt145]

I'd rank Switserland behind both Slovakia and Czechs.

4. Czech Republic
5. Slovakia
6. Switzerland

Perhaps the Swiss go past Slovakia soon but as of right now they are not stronger playerwise.

 

[YMCMBYOLO]

This is my top three in terms of Europe:

1. Sweden- Won gold in 2006 and silver in 2014.. better results than any other European team

2. Finland- Consistent team, they've won three straight medals: one silver and two bronze..

3. Russia- They were VERY disappointing in Sochi, as they lost horribly to Finland and came 5th. Russia hasn't won anything meaningful at the Olympics since 2002, which was 12 years ago. While they have won four gold medals in the WHC, Finland has also done quite well, so I don't see Russia WHC's success prevailing them over Finland.

 

[Yakushev72]

I meant the perception of russian players in general. Kovy is a traitor to humanity because he decided to play at home, right? Ovechkin is a one trick pony, right? There is a long list of HF-standrds. And most of them wouldn't exist or would sound very differently if they were not about russian players. so everybody jumps on the opportunity to bash Russia. It's okay. It's better to be underrated. 3rd strogest in Europe? Really? Okay.

You're right, its all about Russia-hate. I made the same mistake that I think that you may have made, which is taking the title of the post at face value. You were probably thinking, as was I, that some thought was required in order to intelligently analyze the proper rankings. No, intelligence in any form is definitely not required. Just go to the Wikipedia site that lists the results of the Olympics and read them in order.

The Canadian fans only accept the results of the 2010 and 2014 Olympics (2006 doesn't count, because Canada got B-slapped in 2006) as the be-all order of the sport, because Canada won both years. Canada never wins the World Junior and World Championships anymore (how long can you keep winning the Olympics when your Juniors can't win), so those World tournaments don't factor in any more. Only the 2010 and 2014 Olympics are permitted to be factored in, so if you look up the results in Sochi, European teams must be ranked identical to the results of the Olympics. That's how you "rank" the European teams.

 

[The Bad Guy*]

Wow.

I'm speechless.

 

[Jonimaus]

You're right, its all about Russia-hate. I made the same mistake that I think that you may have made, which is taking the title of the post at face value. You were probably thinking, as was I, that some thought was required in order to intelligently analyze the proper rankings. No, intelligence in any form is definitely not required. Just go to the Wikipedia site that lists the results of the Olympics and read them in order.

The Canadian fans only accept the results of the 2010 and 2014 Olympics (2006 doesn't count, because Canada got B-slapped in 2006) as the be-all order of the sport, because Canada won both years. Canada never wins the World Junior and World Championships anymore (how long can you keep winning the Olympics when your Juniors can't win), so those World tournaments don't factor in any more. Only the 2010 and 2014 Olympics are permitted to be factored in, so if you look up the results in Sochi, European teams must be ranked identical to the results of the Olympics. That's how you "rank" the European teams.

Why should Russia be placed higher? What results speak in their favour? You bring up 2006, should Russia be placed higher because they placed 4th in that tournament?

 

[Mr Kanadensisk]

Alright here it is. HF tends to hate Russia. Why? Because there are few Russians here. And probabaly because everybody knows how strong Russia's hockey really is.

Rate all you want. If it makes you smile put Russia below Sweden and Finland. We don't care really.

But I do sense a great amount of wanting Russia to be that low more than a real assesment.

If you are serious it just shows me that you are ignorant to the strength of hockey outside of Russia, but more likely you are the hater of all things non Russian.

I challenged a few Swiss posters who put themselves ahead of your Slavic brothers the Czechs, I guess in your eyes that makes me a Swiss hater too.

 

[Yakushev72]

Wow.

I'm speechless.

I understand your chagrin, my friend, but the fact is that I have made a few posts in this thread where I have tried to take a more nuanced look than what can be made by just re-capping the Sochi results, but I have gotten slapped down by a number of posters citing, yes, the final Olympic results in Sochi to rebut any analysis that I made. Much of it was not so much with Russia but with Finland. If you look at the Finnish result in the Olympics, World Junior and World Championships, you can certainly make a case that Finland should be higher ranked than Sweden. But no, I was reminded, stay on the chalked line and just repeat the rank order from Sochi and shut up! That 2-1 OT loss permanently relegates Finland to a lesser rank than Sweden. Thus, my point!

 

[Mr Kanadensisk]

You're right, its all about Russia-hate. I made the same mistake that I think that you may have made, which is taking the title of the post at face value. You were probably thinking, as was I, that some thought was required in order to intelligently analyze the proper rankings. No, intelligence in any form is definitely not required. Just go to the Wikipedia site that lists the results of the Olympics and read them in order.

The Canadian fans only accept the results of the 2010 and 2014 Olympics (2006 doesn't count, because Canada got B-slapped in 2006) as the be-all order of the sport, because Canada won both years. Canada never wins the World Junior and World Championships anymore (how long can you keep winning the Olympics when your Juniors can't win), so those World tournaments don't factor in any more. Only the 2010 and 2014 Olympics are permitted to be factored in, so if you look up the results in Sochi, European teams must be ranked identical to the results of the Olympics. That's how you "rank" the European teams.

I honestly feel sad for you when I read this because you probably believe it.

 

[Mr Kanadensisk]

I understand your chagrin, my friend, but the fact is that I have made a few posts in this thread where I have tried to take a more nuanced look than what can be made by just re-capping the Sochi results, but I have gotten slapped down by a number of posters citing, yes, the final Olympic results in Sochi to rebut any analysis that I made. Much of it was not so much with Russia but with Finland. If you look at the Finnish result in the Olympics, World Junior and World Championships, you can certainly make a case that Finland should be higher ranked than Sweden. But no, I was reminded, stay on the chalked line and just repeat the rank order from Sochi and shut up! That 2-1 OT loss permanently relegates Finland to a lesser rank than Sweden. Thus, my point!

It's just that so much of what you say is clearly not true, it is hard for us to take you seriously.

 

[The Bad Guy*]

I understand your chagrin, my friend, but the fact is that I have made a few posts in this thread where I have tried to take a more nuanced look than what can be made by just re-capping the Sochi results, but I have gotten slapped down by a number of posters citing, yes, the final Olympic results in Sochi to rebut any analysis that I made. Much of it was not so much with Russia but with Finland. If you look at the Finnish result in the Olympics, World Junior and World Championships, you can certainly make a case that Finland should be higher ranked than Sweden. But no, I was reminded, stay on the chalked line and just repeat the rank order from Sochi and shut up! That 2-1 OT loss permanently relegates Finland to a lesser rank than Sweden. Thus, my point!

I think Sweden ranks higher then Finland because I believe the whole body of their work and players from top to bottom are a bit better then Finlands. I would not permanently relegate any team to any status if their results did not warrant it.

I don't think Finland is far off Sweden either, they are very close. For that matter I don't think Russia is very far off Sweden and Finland but I think there is a slight advantage in both those teams favour to be ranked higher.

Atlas tried to make the point that it was only anti-Russian bias that has people placing Russia currently at third when I think any reasonable person would agree that while you may not agree with that ranking it is reasonable for some people to rank them that way when looking at results across the board.

 

[Jablkon]

I think Sweden ranks higher then Finland because I believe the whole body of their work and players from top to bottom are a bit better then Finlands. I would not permanently relegate any team to any status if their results did not warrant it.

I don't think Finland is far off Sweden either, they are very close. For that matter I don't think Russia is very far off Sweden and Finland but I think there is a slight advantage in both those teams favour to be ranked higher.

Atlas tried to make the point that it was only anti-Russian bias that has people placing Russia currently at third when I think any reasonable person would agree that while you may not agree with that ranking it is reasonable for some people to rank them that way when looking at results across the board.

On the other hand, in regards to hockey, everything what comes from SWE or FIN, expecially from SWE, is considered as a great product in NA, while russian prospects or players are generally perceived as unpredictable and less adaptable (which does not say anything about their level). So I think it is obvious that russian hockey is always bit underrated in NA fans eyes due to a big culture difference.......It also seems to me that ordinary hockey enthusiast in Canada knows more about SWE development program than about russian....

 

[The Bad Guy*]

On the other hand, in regards to hockey, everything what comes from SWE or FIN, expecially from SWE, is considered as a great product in NA, while russian prospects or players are generally perceived as unpredictable and less adaptable (which does not say anything about their level). So I think it is obvious that russian hockey is always bit underrated in NA fans eyes due to a big culture difference.......It also seems to me that ordinary hockey enthusiast in Canada knows more about SWE development program than about russian....

I would have to disagree with some of this.

At least in terms of posters on this site I think the average poster knows as much about Russias development program as Swedens and as for the ordinary Canadian fan I think they know very little about both countries development programs beyond what players from Sweden and Russia are on their NHL team.

And I would also argue the AVERAGE fan in North America has actually over-rated the Russian hockey system and overall strength of that system for a long time now due to memories of the Soviet era and the fact that big stars like Ovechkin are the guys they think of when they think of Russian hockey.

Most know little beyond that.

I will agree that Russian players are seen as less adaptable and less predictable, the bolting of Russian players to the KHL has not helped in that regard.I will also agree that has no bearing on their level of play in many instances.

 

[Jablkon]

I would have to disagree with this.

At least in terms of posters on this site I think the average poster knows as much about Russias development program as Swedens and as for the ordinary Canadian fan I think they know very little about both countries development programs beyond what players from Sweden and Russia are on their NHL team.

And I would also argue the AVERAGE fan in North America has actually over-rated the Russian hockey system and overall strength of that system for a long time now due to memories of the Soviet era and the fact that big stars like Ovechkin are the guys they think of when they think of Russian hockey.

Most know little beyond that.

I will agree that Russian players are seen as less adaptable and less predictable, the bolting of Russian players to the KHL has not helped in that regard.I will also agree that has no bearing on their level of play in many instances.

Thanks for different point of view.This thread will always be an issue when we are still mixing results, leagues, players etc. Speaking about russian system, according to KHL matches which I watched and bearing in mind that there is a limit on foreigners, I would definetely rate them 2nd or even 1st in some aspects. They obviously still produce heck of talent. Their biggest issue is their own mentality and lack of humbleness....

 

[The Bad Guy*]

Thanks for different point of view.This thread will always be an issue when we are still mixing results, leagues, players etc. Speaking about russian system, according to KHL matches which I watched and bearing in mind that there is a limit on foreigners, I would definetely rate them 2nd or even 1st in some aspects. They obviously still produce heck of talent. Their biggest issue is their own mentality and lack of humbleness....

Yes, they always produce talent, they could do better at producing more world class d-men but forwards still are very good and goaltending looks like a strength for them now too going forward.

What aspects of watching the KHL would you rank them first in?

 

[xxxx]

Alright here it is. HF tends to hate Russia. Why? Because there are few Russians here. And probabaly because everybody knows how strong Russia's hockey really is.

Rate all you want. If it makes you smile put Russia below Sweden and Finland. We don't care really.

But I do sense a great amount of wanting Russia to be that low more than a real assesment.

On paper, Russia is ahead of Finland and can be superior to Sweden, but the results at the last 3 olympics have shown something different.

Also, it's always a question what factors do you include into such a ranking.

 

[Lollipop]

I understand your chagrin, my friend, but the fact is that I have made a few posts in this thread where I have tried to take a more nuanced look than what can be made by just re-capping the Sochi results, but I have gotten slapped down by a number of posters citing, yes, the final Olympic results in Sochi to rebut any analysis that I made. Much of it was not so much with Russia but with Finland. If you look at the Finnish result in the Olympics, World Junior and World Championships, you can certainly make a case that Finland should be higher ranked than Sweden. But no, I was reminded, stay on the chalked line and just repeat the rank order from Sochi and shut up! That 2-1 OT loss permanently relegates Finland to a lesser rank than Sweden. Thus, my point!

Really? How? I still don't see any logic reason from you?

Sweden and Finland are close. Russia isn't far away either.

But still the ranking is clear, 1 Sweden, 2 Finland and 3 Russia.

If anything you Russians seems to hate Sweden.

 

[Lollipop]

On paper, Russia is ahead of Finland and can be superio,r to Sweden, but the results at the last 3 olympics have shown something different.

Also, it's always a question what factors do you include into such a ranking.

I disagree, Sweden is better on paper. Russia's defense is simple too weak to challenge Sweden.

Roster's is also something that make Sweden better than both Finland and Russia. Like an another poster said earlier in this thread, Sweden has no real weaknesses in the team unlike Russia and Finland.

 

[xxxx]

I understand your chagrin, my friend, but the fact is that I have made a few posts in this thread where I have tried to take a more nuanced look than what can be made by just re-capping the Sochi results, but I have gotten slapped down by a number of posters citing, yes, the final Olympic results in Sochi to rebut any analysis that I made. Much of it was not so much with Russia but with Finland. If you look at the Finnish result in the Olympics, World Junior and World Championships, you can certainly make a case that Finland should be higher ranked than Sweden. But no, I was reminded, stay on the chalked line and just repeat the rank order from Sochi and shut up! That 2-1 OT loss permanently relegates Finland to a lesser rank than Sweden. Thus, my point!

First of all, Finland lost to Sweden 1-2 in regulation time, not in OT. The second and winning goal was scored by Karlsson at time 36:26.

Second of all, here are the results from the WHC, OG, WJHC, and WU18HC since 2010:

World Hockey Championships: (even though I wouldn't really accept this tournament as an argument in discussion about what country is better, as I explained in another thread)

Finland - 1 gold (2011), 1 silver (2014)
Sweden - 1 gold (2013), 1 silver (2011), 2 bronzes (2010, 2014)

Olympics:

Finland - 2 bronzes
Sweden - 1 silver

World Juniors

Finland - 1 gold (2014)
Sweden - 1 gold (2012), 2 silvers (2013, 2014), 1 bronze (2010)

World U-18 Championships

Finland - 2 bronze medals (2010, 2013)
Sweden - 3 silvers (2010 - 13)


Third of all, at the last 3 olympics, Sweden beat Finland 3 times - 3:2 in 2006, 3:0 in 2010, and 2:1 in 2014.

Not sure how you can think that the only reason people put Sweden ahead of Finland is the Sochi win. And not sure how can you make an argument that Finland 'should be higher ranked than Sweden.'

You clearly said:

If you look at the Finnish result in the Olympics, World Junior and World Championships, you can certainly make a case that Finland should be higher ranked than Sweden.

So, what is the case?

 

[Lollipop]

First of all, Finland lost to Sweden 1-2 in regulation time, not in OT. The second and winning goal was scored by Karlsson at time 36:26.

Second of all, here are the results from the WHC, OG, WJHC, and WU18HC since 2010:

World Hockey Championships: (even though I wouldn't really accept this tournament as an argument in discussion about what country is better, as I explained in another thread)

Finland - 1 gold (2011), 1 silver (2014)
Sweden - 1 gold (2013), 1 silver (2011), 2 bronzes (2010, 2014)

Olympics:

Finland - 2 bronzes
Sweden - 1 silver

World Juniors

Finland - 1 gold (2014)
Sweden - 1 gold (2012), 2 silvers (2013, 2014), 1 bronze (2010)

World U-18 Championships

Finland - 2 bronze medals (2010, 2013)
Sweden - 3 silvers (2010 - 13)


Third of all, at the last 3 olympics, Sweden beat Finland 3 times - 3:2 in 2006, 3:0 in 2010, and 2:1 in 2014.

Not sure how you can think that the only reason people put Sweden ahead of Finland is the Sochi win. And not sure how can you make an argument that Finland 'should be higher ranked than Sweden.'

This is the second time in this thread he bring up this lie. Embrassing!!!!! I told him that is untrue and now he bring up it again.

That Russian guy simple must hate Sweden when he lie again and again.

 

[stv11]

No need to continue...