Larry Brooks: Rangers will be selling

[Edge]

I do have to chuckle a little bit. It isn't a tough argument to say that two of our best players and/or most important players over the last half decade or so are Lundqvist and McD.

Yet we continually seem to undervalue them and take them for granted. We do the same with some of our top prospects too. Conversely, we take guys like Nieves, McIlrath, etc. and start to plan out future's for them based on a handful of games.

Is McD the best defenseman in the NHL? Not by a long shot.

But 31 guys we'd take over him? A number two defenseman? Somehow unworthy of landing a top young player in a package? C'mon now.

I think the self-loathing we're experiencing this season is getting a bit carried away. We're swooning over talents on other teams, some of whom are very good but not earth shattering. Meanwhile, even our most valuable players seem to not be worth much of anything appealing in a trade.

I don't know what some of these guys could fetch, but I don't think Nash or Grabner are worth any less than a second.

Zucc isn't worth any less than first, and McD isn't worth any less than a top young player/prospect and a first.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Imo, even if you totally disregard any of the arguments about his missteps with player usage, system design, etc, it's pretty clear he's lost the team to a significant degree. That's just something that happens over time in the league with 99% of coaches. Guys like Babcock are the exception, not the rule. The team comes out cold nearly every game, they look confused on the ice a lot of the time, they play with little to no fire across the board including guys that have a history of playing that way.

Imo, both moves should sync up. If we're turning over a significant part of the roster to start a new era of NYR hockey, it's a good time to get a new coach too and really start with a clean slate. I'd keep the roster turnover somewhat minimal until we know where guys stand with a new coach. McD and Zucc, if excellent deals are there, can be moved now while their value is sky high. Nash and Grabner are rentals and should be rented. I'd hold off on most everyone else to see how they look with a new coach unless you get a can't miss offer. Smith is a prime example - the guy used to be excellent at denying clean entries, now AV's system doesn't really call for that much so he's far less effective.

Thats a fair and sober minded approach. I just said in another response that the narrative on this board has manifested to a degree that would have one believe that AV's coaching never worked with the team. Thats not true. It did work with a very deep and versatile roster. The Rangers are a ways away from having that again. This sell job is only the start. I do think they'd be better served with a coach whose strengths lie more around structure, motivation, and bringing along younger players.

 

[True Blue]

Results. How far do you have to go back to find back to back Ranger seasons that consisted of a Stanley Cup Finals appearance followed by being the best regular season team in the league? Do back to back seasons even exist like that in the franchise's history?

The results are among best. However, I would say it was in spite of AV not because of. His tukhus was saved by Henke. As for your second point, thats the belief of a lot of people on this board - it doesn't look like the belief of Rangers management who extended AV

Unfortunately, that is true.

Its tough to pin all the issues on one or two things. But in the face of a roster whose depth has crumbled significantly since 2015 and evidence that things DID work under AV with a deeper roster, I just think its a flimsy argument.

A better coach would have devised tweaks to his system to be able to play to a level that is actually being played on the ice, not a hypothetical.

I mean, you basically have to suspend reality and pretend that nothing has worked under AV over the last 5 seasons, and thats just not true.

I think that you are suspending reality and living in fantasy land not to acknowledge how much world class goaltending has helped to mask so many of the warts. Warts brought about by a system that has degraded every year (for the second consecutive time in his coaching career).

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

AV stays and Gorton gets the bullet?

Never in a million years would that happen, nor should it. The biggest reason the Rangers lack depth now is because Sather sacrificed the future between 2012-2016 for one more shot at glory. Thats one of the downsides of having an old man running things.

 

[RGY]

Still waiting for that list of 31 (despite his holes this year)...

My apologies, I was waiting for a break from my work. But sure I’ll play along for the defensemen I would take over McDonagh...

Based on play from 15-16 season through now:

Burns
Josi
Subban
Karlsson
Hedman
Doughty
Pietrangelo
Giordano
OEL
Weber
Parayko
Klingberg

Then the argument can be made for all of these players:

Suter
Letang
Keith
Carlson
Jones
Werenski
Faulk
Ellis (Nashville’s defense is not fair)
Trouba
Ekblad
Hanifan
Vlasic

And still to a lower tier but guys you could argue for:

Leddy
C.Miller
Ghost
Shattenkirk
Yandle
Barrie
Gardiner
Reilly
Ristolainen
Fowler
Lindholm

Left some guys off, but that is 35+ defensemen right there. I see McDonagh’s overall game falling at the top of the 3rd group putting him at 26ish. I think guys in the 3rd group could easily be justified to pass him on desirablity of who you would rather have.

I love everything McDonagh has done for this organization. I would prefer to keep him. But even keeping him, I realistically try to look at him honestly which i think many of you refuse to do. There are simply better players than him, especially on the offensive side of the puck. Offense is a big factor into being considered a #1 defenseman imo. It just is. Aside from his anamoly of a game against the Sharks, he is not a good option on the PP. No fault of his own that he is force fed minutes. I think he can plays extremely hard, skates well, hangs with any forward attacking at him. But there is a part of the game he lacks in. You can agree or disagree, that is your right. But the reality is he has bad offensive instincts. I mean i wish we as a group kept track of the amount of times this season alone he has pinched down the left wing boards in the offseason, retrieved the puck below the circles and tried to make a cross ice pass into a sea of players with only one man back. Thats just stupidity and a microcosm of the deficiencies he has offensively

 

[TheTakedown]

Vesey isnt a bad player,i just think too many people on here overestimated what type of player he was going to become or thought he would become in this league.For a cheap bottom 6 player who will chip in 15+ goals a year,what more can you ask for?

This. Vesey is a 3rd round pick. He was never supposed to be a world beater, not every Hobey Baker winner is Will Butcher.

He's a low end middle 6 player. If he learns to play the Ryan Callahan game properly then he'll be a fantastic fetch for us. He wont cost more than $1.5M to extend, and I would bet that his agent understands that his hockey skillset is limited, and therefore he should value term over $

Problem is this coach values his intangibles over his skillset, and because of that he sees top 6 and PP time, which sucks.

 

[haveandare]

Thats a fair and sober minded approach. I just said in another response that the narrative on this board has manifested to a degree that would have one believe that AV's coaching never worked with the team. Thats not true. It did work with a very deep and versatile roster. The Rangers are a ways away from having that again. This sell job is only the start. I do think they'd be better served with a coach whose strengths lie more around structure, motivation, and bringing along younger players.

Yeah, I'd agree with this. His gameplay definitely did work for a while, and I know it's uncomfortable to think about to a degree, but we really could have won that LA series with a tiny bit of luck.

And yeah I'd agree about the type of coach they could use next. Someone who could insert some energy and fire back into the team would really help a lot as would someone who could simplify the d system for the time being and focus on limiting the opponent's shots rather than letting them unload and hoping to flee to zone asap.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

So basically a list of about 10-12 guys who are clearly better, a few others who are debatable, and a bunch of guys who are major reaches and aren't in his class.

This somehow went exactly how I expected it to go.

 

[TheTakedown]

Giving Miller the huge deal after trading away McD and Zucc would be rough. Not looking forward to that.

I agree here. Would rather trade Miller while his value is high and then use those assets to buy another player. Not happy with what I've seen of Miller.

Hayes on the other hand has exceeded my expectations by a landslide. Guy looks fantastic even if he's not putting up 50 points

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Yeah, I'd agree with this. His gameplay definitely did work for a while, and I know it's uncomfortable to think about to a degree, but we really could have won that LA series with a tiny bit of luck.

And yeah I'd agree about the type of coach they could use next. Someone who could insert some energy and fire back into the team would really help a lot as would someone who could simplify the d system for the time being and focus on limiting the opponent's shots rather than letting them unload and hoping to flee to zone asap.

Hey, whats John Tortorella up to?

 

[Thirty One]

Hey, whats John Tortorella up to?

He's coaching the Blue Jackets.

 

[silverfish]

I agree here. Would rather trade Miller while his value is high and then use those assets to buy another player. Not happy with what I've seen of Miller.

Hayes on the other hand has exceeded my expectations by a landslide. Guy looks fantastic even if he's not putting up 50 points

KH has logged 25 mins on the PP this season. Most of which I'm assuming was garbage time collected at the end of PPs when AV pulls the 2nd unit and does some weird Grabner-Hayes-Fast thing for the last 15 seconds.

You're not gonna put up 50 points with no PP time. Which is cool, because this is destroying his AAV. How smart is Hayes' agent?

I know this post sounds like I'm arguing with you but I assure you that is not the case. I agree with you wholeheartedly, just adding more color.

 

[haveandare]

Hey, whats John Tortorella up to?

Winning awards for coach of the year insanely enough haha.

 

[TheTakedown]

On Nash, I think he's a victim of AVs system this season . Still think with a few good bounces his instinct in front of goal is great . Just need our playmakers to play . He's a finisher .

Yeah, OK. "He's a finisher"...

Meanwhile he has literally been gifted goals this year and yet has only 15 goals and 25 points... Finisher my ass

 

[pblawr]

These are the only players with more shots on goal than Nash this year: Ovechkin, Tarasenko, Burns, Seguin, Kane, Kessel, Pacioretty, Eichel, Skinner, Kane, Trocheck, Kucherov, Mackinnon, Marchessault, Gallagher. That's it.

 

[TheTakedown]

Even though AV produced arguably the best back to back seasons in this organization's history when he had an actual deep roster to work with, I am going to move past this type of argument that has been beaten to death.

Lets talk about this "whole thing being backwards." The situations with Nash, Grabner, Zuccarello, and McDonagh are more time bound. Nash and Grabner need to be moved due to their UFA status and Zuccarello and McDonagh can have their values maximized. More importantly, the returns on this sale are going to chart the organization's course for the next several years. Why wouldnt we wait to see what the returns even look like before moving on the coach? Dare I say AV could still be the right man for the job as he was in 2014 and 2015? I know, I know, BLASPHEMY.

No, because even in those successful years the system is overly reliant on insane goaltending to produce the results. We still faced 30+ shots a game even with those good teams, and Hank has seen more high danger shot attempts than any goaltender in the last 5 years

 

[cwede]

... The biggest reason the Rangers lack depth now is because Sather sacrificed the future between 2012-2016 for one more shot at glory ...

i agree with that, NYR
still feeling the costs of the MSL, Yandle and E.Staal deals;
the Clowe deal still bothers me too
(and some bad calls with UDFA types, esp Marchessault, also anyone else notice Joly has 33 G in 34 ECHL GP, while Chapie is even worse than Haggerty (who at least was turned into Raanta ...)

 

[TheTakedown]

Imo, even if you totally disregard any of the arguments about his missteps with player usage, system design, etc, it's pretty clear he's lost the team to a significant degree. That's just something that happens over time in the league with 99% of coaches. Guys like Babcock are the exception, not the rule. The team comes out cold nearly every game, they look confused on the ice a lot of the time, they play with little to no fire across the board including guys that have a history of playing that way.

Imo, both moves should sync up. If we're turning over a significant part of the roster to start a new era of NYR hockey, it's a good time to get a new coach too and really start with a clean slate. I'd keep the roster turnover somewhat minimal until we know where guys stand with a new coach. McD and Zucc, if excellent deals are there, can be moved now while their value is sky high. Nash and Grabner are rentals and should be rented. I'd hold off on most everyone else to see how they look with a new coach unless you get a can't miss offer. Smith is a prime example - the guy used to be excellent at denying clean entries, now AV's system doesn't really call for that much so he's far less effective.

Fantastic f***ing post bro!

 

[haveandare]

Fantastic ****ing post bro!

Thanks!

 

[TheTakedown]

KH has logged 25 mins on the PP this season. Most of which I'm assuming was garbage time collected at the end of PPs when AV pulls the 2nd unit and does some weird Grabner-Hayes-Fast thing for the last 15 seconds.

You're not gonna put up 50 points with no PP time. Which is cool, because this is destroying his AAV. How smart is Hayes' agent?

I know this post sounds like I'm arguing with you but I assure you that is not the case. I agree with you wholeheartedly, just adding more color.

Truth. You think he can be locked up for $4.5M / 5-6 years?

 

[silverfish]

Truth. You think he can be locked up for $4.5M / 5-6 years?

I'd take it and run if I was GMJG, that's for sure.

 

[Mac n Gs]

He's definitely a solid prospect. I didn't mean to disparage him by any means. My concern with him is that he's a kid who is billed to be almost the total package, but I've yet to see a dominant game from him. Now, I certainly haven't seen every game he's played in the last two years, but in the ones I have seen he seems to be able to operate at a high level on one side of the puck or the other. He can wow you offensively, or he can be steady and efficient defensively. I have yet to see him do both.

But again, like I said, I haven't seen every game he's played, so my opinion is just that. I also said similar things about Ryan McDonagh and look how that turned out. If we got him and a 1st for Zucc, I'd certainly be comfortable with giving the deal the benefit of the doubt.

That’s actually a really good description of him, but that versatility is why I like him so much. He’s doing well in offensive minutes for BU, and he did great in a defensice role for Canada at the WJC. There was a ton of draft day hype that probably over-inflated his value, but I think he has the tools to turn into a really solid second pairing guy or at least a low-end top pairing guy.

 

[TheTakedown]

These are the only players with more shots on goal than Nash this year: Ovechkin, Tarasenko, Burns, Seguin, Kane, Kessel, Pacioretty, Eichel, Skinner, Kane, Trocheck, Kucherov, Mackinnon, Marchessault, Gallagher. That's it.

Good we'll just hand Nash a Corsi trophy and call it results.

It's not the shots on goal that's the problem. it's that Nash's shot has deteriorated, yet his game style is still that of 5 years ago when he actually *could* dangle through 2-3 players.

Nash also needs to learn what kind of game he needs to play, because the one he's playing right now (fly down the wing and button hook, attempt to dangle 3-4 guys on his own, limp wristers to the goalie's chest, never elevating the puck to score) is not producing anything.

However, as I'm typing this and reading through some of this thread, I'm realizing that this is the 4th guy that I've thought this about--Nash, Vesey, Miller, Smith just to name a few, which points to yet again another systemic issue, ala the gum chewing jackass behind the bench.

I still do not want Rick Nash back on this team. He will get $5M for at least 4 years (see the Pouliot contract that Edmonton gave him, or the Hagelin contract that Anaheim gave him), and will continue to put up 35 points and do PK time. You can pay Grabner $2M less and get the same results plus more goal scoring, as long as the coach can maximize his north-south game (which is hard to forecast, because he seems to only be this good under this ridiculous system).

 

[HFsNumber1Heel]

i agree with that, NYR
still feeling the costs of the MSL, Yandle and E.Staal deals;
the Clowe deal still bothers me too
(and some bad calls with UDFA types, esp Marchessault, also anyone else notice Joly has 33 G in 34 ECHL GP, while Chapie is even worse than Haggerty (who at least was turned into Raanta ...)

I think with JAM they wanted him in New York but that was back in the days when the team had a lot of depth with more prospects on the way (Miller/Kreider/Fast/Lindberg) and we all remember how Kenny G used Zuc, so he decided to go to a team with more openings in Columbus. Remember, it took him five NHL organizations and six years as a pro to become a full-time NHLer. He still has to produce in the playoffs which is going to be very interesting if Vegas's scoring holds up and if their Gs can win tight games.

 

[RGY]

So basically a list of about 10-12 guys who are clearly better, a few others who are debatable, and a bunch of guys who are major reaches and aren't in his class.

This somehow went exactly how I expected it to go.

To each their own.

Never said I didn’t want McDonagh. Nor do I hate him. At this stage, at his age, I am looking at him objectively for what he is. Their are a lot of defenseman i would consider having over him outside of the top 15 listed. He is not some surefire Number 1 imo.