Pre-Game Talk: Rangers vs. Lightning 02/27/19 - 7:30 EST

[JHS]

Seems you don't understand how a rebuild works.

So sick of these kinds of comments. Really brings nothing to the table. Rebuilds work by applauding effort of grown men as if they are 11?!?! Please, just stop with this nonsense!

When this team wins less than 5 games for the next 20 you think the guys on the roster are going to be happy? You think they are going to go in the locker room and say to each other “hey congratulations on skating hard out there!” “At least we hustled!” Please, that makes it WORSE! Thoughts creep into their heads, “My best was not good enough to defeat someone else’s.” Overtime, that has crippling impacts on people’s psychological makeup. That’s not a culture to develop in!

You are right though, I have no idea how rebuilds work. I do, however, have a pretty good idea of how human beings react when they are competitive and want to win!

 

[Larrybiv]

If Smith is just going to be a forward now, I can live with it.

The last time they actually rolled 7 defensemen it was a circus. Nobody knew who they were playing with or where they were supposed to be.

Hockey is 4 lines and 3 pairs. 11/7 is some clown ****.

And really adds to the confusion and much stronger possibility of too many men........at least a half dozen times thus far.

Thought AV was the clown, is Quinn he ringleader?

 

[Jaromir Jagr]

So sick of these kinds of comments. Really brings nothing to the table. Rebuilds work by applauding effort of grown men as if they are 11?!?! Please, just stop with this nonsense!

When this team wins less than 5 games for the next 20 you think the guys on the roster are going to be happy? You think they are going to go in the locker room and say to each other “hey congratulations on skating hard out there!” “At least we hustled!” Please, that makes it WORSE! Thoughts creep into their heads, “My best was not good enough to defeat someone else’s.” Overtime, that has crippling impacts on people’s psychological makeup. That’s not a culture to develop in!

You are right though, I have no idea how rebuilds work. I do, however, have a pretty good idea of how human beings react when they are competitive and want to win!

I hope this team only wins 5 games in their next 20 for two reasons:

1. To witness your reaction.

2. So that we are blessed with the opportunity to finally get a top player in the draft.

 

[Larrybiv]

I miss our lineup from 3 seasons ago

You will get to see the majority of it tonight.

Question is.....if you took ALL of the players that we traded there (and Stralman) and placed them on our current roster, would we be able to compete with TB and their immediate replacements of those players?

Just goes to show how "getting lucky" with players like Kucherov and Point (59th?) swings the pendulum......adding to what they already had.

How brilliant to trade Bishop with Vasilevsky ready? Getting Cernak. They had that option.

 

[Larrybiv]

I would leave DeAngelo alone. Best all-around D on the team right now.

Pionk at forward would be fantastic. That means he's not playing defense.

Aren't 4th line forwards known for playing good defense and little offense?

 

[Jaromir Jagr]

You will get to see the majority of it tonight.

Question is.....if you took ALL of the players that we traded there (and Stralman) and placed them on our current roster, would we be able to compete with TB and their immediate replacements of those players?

Just goes to show how "getting lucky" with players like Kucherov and Point (59th?) swings the pendulum......adding to what they already had.

How brilliant to trade Bishop with Vasilevsky ready? Getting Cernak. They had that option.

The answer is a resounding no. In fact, I'd argue we are very likely still a lottery team even with those players back on our roster.

Kucherov
Stamkos
Point

We don't and would not have any player even close to the level of those three.

 

[JHS]

I hope this team only wins 5 games in their next 20 for two reasons:

1. To witness your reaction.

2. So that we are blessed with the opportunity to finally get a top player in the draft.

Glad you are looking forward to my reaction. That’s just the thing— I get that rebuilding means losing. What infuriates me is that people on here just assume a rebuild will lead to success and that just because the rangers accumulate young talent that they will all develop. That’s beyond a fallacy.

I also don’t believe developing talent in a losing culture works. Generational talent can transcend the losing in most cases but look what McDavid has been saying lately, he’s tired of the losing. Losing kills players real quick. My point is, the Rangers can develop talent but their NHL roster should be for developed talent. None of their guys are generational talent and therefore are developing in a losing culture. That’s not what I want!

 

[Jaromir Jagr]

Glad you are looking forward to my reaction. That’s just the thing— I get that rebuilding means losing. What infuriates me is that people on here just assume a rebuild will lead to success and that just because the rangers accumukate young talent that they will all develop. That’s beyond a fallacy.

I also don’t believe developing talent in a loosing culture works. Generational talent can transcend the loosing in most cases but look what McDavid has been saying lately, he’s tired of the loosing. Loosing kills players real quick. My point is, the Rangers can develop talent but their NHL roster should be for developed talent. None of their guys are generational talent and therefore are developing in a loosing culture. That’s not what I want!

I'm not going to beat a dead horse by re-litigating the arguments behind why a rebuild gives you the best odds to win a cup in the current league structure.

However, I will respond to advise you learn the difference between lose and loose.

 

[Larrybiv]

I have a feeling we will all be longing for the days when this team finished 6th in a few years!

I’m tired of everyone on here believing a rebuild means “better”— it just means different!

Yes, different most assuredly. Better? We all hope so.
Putting aside that it might not be the best thing for AHLers being in the NHL prematurely.......but I would rather watch a bunch of em' learning on the fly then watching a bunch of over the hill gang bangers.

Okay so Anderssen and Chytil havent been a revelation, but even still I enjoy watching them......even if it is the "little things" that give you hope. A nice play here or there, at least that's progress. Compare that to a nice play and a goal by McLeod. Which are you happier about?

 

[JHS]

I'm not going to beat a dead horse by re-litigating the arguments behind why a rebuild gives you the best odds to win a cup in the current league structure.

However, I will respond to advise you learn the difference between lose and loose.

Grammar police really helpful. I often respond on my way to work on my phone. I’ll keep my grammar and spelling lessons to my real job as a teacher. I appreciate you reading the posts I make.

Listen, I know I’m in the minority here. People love the rebuild. It’s exciting, it’s new, it’s fun... I just look at it differently. It’s not an absolute!

 

[JHS]

Yes, different most assuredly. Better? We all hope so.
Putting aside that it might not be the best thing for AHLers being in the NHL prematurely.......but I would rather watch a bunch of em' learning on the fly then watching a bunch of over the hill gang bangers.

Okay so Anderssen and Chytil havent been a revelation, but even still I enjoy watching them......even if it is the "little things" that give you hope. A nice play here or there, at least that's progress. Compare that to a nice play and a goal by McLeod. Which are you happier about?

Totally agree— I’d much rather watch the youth develop. However, you can’t just cast aside the number one aspect of my argument. Developing young talent in a losing culture is not good for those players.

 

[Jaromir Jagr]

Grammar police really helpful. I often respond on my way to work on my phone. I’ll keep my grammar and spelling lessons to my real job as a teacher. I appreciate you reading the posts I make.

Listen, I know I’m in the minority here. People love the rebuild. It’s exciting, it’s new, it’s fun... I just look at it differently. It’s not an absolute!

Nothing is an absolute. And there's a far better argument as to why maintaining aging vets and signing UFA's is far less likely to result in a contender than properly submitting to a full-on rebuild.

I'm not crazy on correcting grammar, but not knowing the difference between lose and loose is a really poor mistake and makes you seem completely uneducated.

 

[Larrybiv]

The answer is a resounding no. In fact, I'd argue we are very likely still a lottery team even with those players back on our roster.

Kucherov
Stamkos
Point

We don't and would not have any player even close to the level of those three.

Yes, you are correct and is EXACTLY my point. I am thrilled with what the organization has decided to do. My "only" questioning of this would be that maybe......just maybe we started doing this 1 year too late.

Imagine had we traded McD with2+years on his contract? Stepan 1 yr. earlier and even Mats? Surely would have hurt, but we would have gotten much more.
Identifying used to be the issue, and Gorton just was handed that responsibility. Had he (made significant moves immediately), might have scared lots of Ranger fans, while screaming "how could you trade Zuccha?"
He did what was needed this year, and now other than Kreids (not an option for me) Namestnikov and Vesey are the only "pieces" that should be looked at, in off season.
I would move Names, keep Vesey......he is a late bloomer and believe he could be a 25-30 goal scorer. Not bad.
I would re-sign Claesson, and do what you can.... to bid farewell to Smith and/or Shatty. NO buyouts.

 

[Larrybiv]

Totally agree— I’d much rather watch the youth develop. However, you can’t nust cast aside the number one aspect of my argument. Developing young talent in a loosing culture is not good for those players.

And I totally agree......just cannot have BOTH. If we want to watch these kids develop......in this particular situation.....they will undoubtedly LOSE more often than not. That is where Hank comes in. He could sometimes give an AHL team a shot at beating an NHL club.
Even with losing our last 3, this team probably will NEVER be THAT BAD (whether thats a good thing or bad). Hank won't allow that to happen. No debbie downer faces.
What doesntkill this team, will eventually make them stronger. They have had a little taste of winning........so when they LOSE, LOSE and LOSE some more, they will collectively get angry, and will grow and work for one another to get back to winning. Military style. Win together, lose together......no one gets left behind.

 

[NCRanger]

Grammar police really helpful. I often respond on my way to work on my phone. I’ll keep my grammar and spelling lessons to my real job as a teacher. I appreciate you reading the posts I make.

Listen, I know I’m in the minority here. People love the rebuild. It’s exciting, it’s new, it’s fun... I just look at it differently. It’s not an absolute!

I happen to agree with you.

There are so many logical problems with the "rebuild" crowd's thought processes.

First, a "rebuild" has to start bearing fruit within three to four years, otherwise the first players drafted come off their ELCs. Then, it's an issue of resigning players who really haven't brought the team out of the "tank", or trading them away and prolonging the cycle. Chicago was able to get out of the cellar within a few years with Kane and Toews. LA was able to as well. Edmonton hasn't, that's why they're still bad. Buffalo hasn't either. Same for Florida. Also, stating it's the "best way" without acknowledging its a total crapshoot is really being ignorant to facts. It's also the best way to be a perennial mediocre non-playoff team, see Hurricanes, Carolina.

Secondly, thinking NHL players that have no real future with an organization outside of their contract length are willingly going to lie down and lose because it's in the "best interest" of the organization long term is frankly, ridiculous. Also, players who are looked at as long term pieces don't want to be involved in a losing culture.

Thirdly, the team that was iced for most of this season was not a bad team at all. Some think they've had incredible puck luck. Others think they've actually had some breaks go against them. This COULD have been a playoff team (albeit, barely) if they had a few things go their way. Nobody wants a team that's occasionally an 8 seed either, but expecting THIS team to be as bad as some of you wanted was a pipe dream. They have to get much worse to reap the supposed "benefits" of "tanking". Then, reread point #1.

 

[offdacrossbar]

I happen to agree with you.

There are so many logical problems with the "rebuild" crowd's thought processes.

First, a "rebuild" has to start bearing fruit within three to four years, otherwise the first players drafted come off their ELCs. Then, it's an issue of resigning players who really haven't brought the team out of the "tank", or trading them away and prolonging the cycle. Chicago was able to get out of the cellar within a few years with Kane and Toews. LA was able to as well. Edmonton hasn't, that's why they're still bad. Buffalo hasn't either. Same for Florida. Also, stating it's the "best way" without acknowledging its a total crapshoot is really being ignorant to facts. It's also the best way to be a perennial mediocre non-playoff team, see Hurricanes, Carolina.

Secondly, thinking NHL players that have no real future with an organization outside of their contract length are willingly going to lie down and lose because it's in the "best interest" of the organization long term is frankly, ridiculous. Also, players who are looked at as long term pieces don't want to be involved in a losing culture.

Thirdly, the team that was iced for most of this season was not a bad team at all. Some think they've had incredible puck luck. Others think they've actually had some breaks go against them. This COULD have been a playoff team (albeit, barely) if they had a few things go their way. Nobody wants a team that's occasionally an 8 seed either, but expecting THIS team to be as bad as some of you wanted was a pipe dream. They have to get much worse to reap the supposed "benefits" of "tanking". Then, reread point #1.

well said.

some of us here believed this team was better than expected. they over achieved and actually looked like they could make the playoffs.

the defensive tire fire assembled by JG was partially responsible for that not happening plus a lack of overall offensive talent plus some injuries made sure that we fell back into the "tank" mode even though we cant tank properly because we keep winning and sometimes against very good teams and we have henrik lundqvist. we were never going to be top 3OA bad. even now, we wont get there.

the "tank" crowd is pretty aggressive in their belief that changing directions is the best way to win a cup. you gotta be real bad to be real good. sell everyone and rely on your scouts to draft you to the stanley cup. dont agree.

organizations can be perennially good. the redwings for years, the patriots, the yankees. i realize its different for each league but the culture of winning makes a difference. the culture of losing ? the oilers. thats all you need to look at.

if it was as easy as the "tank:" crowd leads us to believe with their "narrative" :

play bad. lose games.
sell off anyone 27 and older due a 2nd long term deal.
receive back the holy grail of this crowd ---- DRAFT PICKS
draft top 3OA players
win
cup

see: oilers, edmonton

 

[JHS]

And I totally agree......just cannot have BOTH. If we want to watch these kids develop......in this particular situation.....they will undoubtedly LOSE more often than not. That is where Hank comes in. He could sometimes give an AHL team a shot at beating an NHL club.
Even with losing our last 3, this team probably will NEVER be THAT BAD (whether thats a good thing or bad). Hank won't allow that to happen. No debbie downer faces.
What doesntkill this team, will eventually make them stronger. They have had a little taste of winning........so when they LOSE, LOSE and LOSE some more, they will collectively get angry, and will grow and work for one another to get back to winning. Military style. Win together, lose together......no one gets left behind.

I hope you are right and they take the winning approach. Except, not every human responds the same to this adversity. If the guys fall apart mentally because of all the losing then I suspect it will be very hard to change that culture. Also, Hank is tremendous but do we know if he's actually a great leader? Seems like it is very hard for the goalie to lead in a hockey culture. Playing goalie is such a different beast than playing a position player. I wonder if they can even relate to him?

 

[JHS]

I happen to agree with you.

There are so many logical problems with the "rebuild" crowd's thought processes.

First, a "rebuild" has to start bearing fruit within three to four years, otherwise the first players drafted come off their ELCs. Then, it's an issue of resigning players who really haven't brought the team out of the "tank", or trading them away and prolonging the cycle. Chicago was able to get out of the cellar within a few years with Kane and Toews. LA was able to as well. Edmonton hasn't, that's why they're still bad. Buffalo hasn't either. Same for Florida. Also, stating it's the "best way" without acknowledging its a total crapshoot is really being ignorant to facts. It's also the best way to be a perennial mediocre non-playoff team, see Hurricanes, Carolina.

Secondly, thinking NHL players that have no real future with an organization outside of their contract length are willingly going to lie down and lose because it's in the "best interest" of the organization long term is frankly, ridiculous. Also, players who are looked at as long term pieces don't want to be involved in a losing culture.

Thirdly, the team that was iced for most of this season was not a bad team at all. Some think they've had incredible puck luck. Others think they've actually had some breaks go against them. This COULD have been a playoff team (albeit, barely) if they had a few things go their way. Nobody wants a team that's occasionally an 8 seed either, but expecting THIS team to be as bad as some of you wanted was a pipe dream. They have to get much worse to reap the supposed "benefits" of "tanking". Then, reread point #1.

So well said and exactly my argument all throughout. It's tough to make this argument on here because clearly the team went in this direction. I just wish people would recognize and acknowledge that success is not a foregone conclusion in rebuilds. Failure and perpetual rebuilds are a real thing too!

 

[will1066]

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

Enter the record setting losing streak.

Prepare to be surprised.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

No more free Rangers matches here in Norway it seems. With Zuuc gone, they are showing other matches

Norwegian media blackout on hockey.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

So sick of these kinds of comments. Really brings nothing to the table. Rebuilds work by applauding effort of grown men as if they are 11?!?! Please, just stop with this nonsense!

When this team wins less than 5 games for the next 20 you think the guys on the roster are going to be happy? You think they are going to go in the locker room and say to each other “hey congratulations on skating hard out there!” “At least we hustled!” Please, that makes it WORSE! Thoughts creep into their heads, “My best was not good enough to defeat someone else’s.” Overtime, that has crippling impacts on people’s psychological makeup. That’s not a culture to develop in!

You are right though, I have no idea how rebuilds work. I do, however, have a pretty good idea of how human beings react when they are competitive and want to win!

Hey the Rangers might win zero of the next twenty yet still earn 16-20 points.

Playoffs here we come!

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

Fitting that he’s by himself

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

Lightning are far and away the best team in the league. They need to win the whole damn thing and get us that 3rd first round in the summer. cmon now.

 

[Larrybiv]

I hope you are right and they take the winning approach. Except, not every human responds the same to this adversity. If the guys fall apart mentally because of all the losing then I suspect it will be very hard to change that culture. Also, Hank is tremendous but do we know if he's actually a great leader? Seems like it is very hard for the goalie to lead in a hockey culture. Playing goalie is such a different beast than playing a position player. I wonder if they can even relate to him?

I would assume only goaltenders (and goaltender coaches) can relate 100%. Otherwise, the majority of whatever "leadership" Hank provides is coming from every other area need be.
Eg: preparation, never say die/no quit attitude, taking the "blame" opposed to pointing fingers and NOT ever feeling sorry for yourself.......may be a few that comes off the top of my head.