Larry Brooks: Rangers season at crossroads--already

[haveandare]

Um

We have built this team thru the draft

Stepan Staal Lundqvist Callahan Our 4 best players

Developed Girardi and mcdonagh pretty much home grown

Traded for a superstar rick Nash by trading drafted players

And have only ONE big ticket UFA in brad Richards

We never bottomed out to get our Crosby or Malkin

But neither has Detroit or LA or Boston really

Well put. Much of this team is built through the draft. That top line scorer isn't likely going to come with late picks, so they traded for Nash to fill that void. Richards is the only UFA-type making a decent amount of money.

Realistically, 3 of the top 6 offensive players were drafted by NYR: Hagelin, Stepan, Callahan.

On D, 2 of the top 6 players were drafted by NYR (Staal, MDZ), and 2 other players only ever played NHL hockey for the Rangers (Girardi, an undrafted FA, and McD who was acquired as a prospect in a smart trade).

Obviously, Hank, possibly the best NHL goalie playing right now, was also drafted by the Rangers.

The Rangers have built a lot of this team with their own picks along with players who were acquired as young prospects in good trades or as underrated free agents.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Florida and Nashville are not big market, cap teams. Neither team has picked 1st overall in a long time, And I dont think Nashville ever has. Edmonton's drafting strategy has neglected key pieces on D. McKenzie confirmed that the majority of Edmonton's scouts wanted Ryan Murray, but the call for Yakupov came from up on high. They are also poorly managed (constant coaching changes, owner butting in to hockey decisions, ect).

Are you saying the way we should build this team is to come in dead last in the league? How many years should we do that for? I do not remember Detroit having the #1 pick for all their championships. Or the Devils. We won the cup with Mess, Leetch and Richter. There are just as many teams that have had the #1 pick without a cup as with one. Maybe more. The Isles have had at least 2 number one picks that I can think of. So has Atlanta. Come to think of it Rick Nash was a number 1 pick.

If people on this board knows the surefire way to build a championship why are we on these boards and not NHL GMs? I'm all for building through the draft but no team builds solely through the draft. There are not superstar players in every draft. You dont want to be a horrible team as a goal. Some draft years are totally bare. Championship teams and horrible teams build through the draft. Championship teams and horrible teams also make trades.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Are you saying the way we should build this team is to come in dead last in the league? How many years should we do that for? I do not remember Detroit having the #1 pick for all their championships. Or the Devils. We won the cup with Mess, Leetch and Richter. There are just as many teams that have had the #1 pick without a cup as with one. Maybe more. The Isles have had at least 2 number one picks that I can think of. So has Atlanta. Come to think of it Rick Nash was a number 1 pick.

If people on this board knows the surefire way to build a championship why are we on these boards and not NHL GMs? I'm all for building through the draft but no team builds solely through the draft. There are not superstar players in every draft. You dont want to be a horrible team as a goal. Some draft years are totally bare. Championship teams and horrible teams build through the draft. Championship teams and horrible teams also make trades.

Lets try to put this in terms that you'll actually understand. This team needs to start acquiring, in any way possible, top 6 forwards that are much better than Benoit Pouliot or, yes, Mats Zuccarello.

 

[LORDE]

While I agree Dolan/Sather will never allow this team to be bad enough to have consecutive years of top 10 or so picks, it's extremely ingenuous to act like PIT/CHI/LA were "purposely bad" for a number of years.

Were they extremely mediocre? Yes. Did they essentially tank like you could perhaps argue EDM/COL/NYI(maybe) have done in recent years? Not at all.
People always ***** that the Rangers refuse to be a bottom 10 team in exchange for being a 7/8 seed and lose in the first round, but if this team missed the playoffs 9/10 years like Chicago did, there wouldn't be a fan base for this team. This team's business model is built on band wagoners.

I'd even go as far as saying that probably a 1/3 of the people that wish this team would fail now for future successes wouldn't give a **** until they won the cup anyways.

I would argue that of all the teams you mentioned, forget that... of all the teams in the NHL, Pitt not only tanked the most frequently, but also were not subtle about it.

 

[savebyrichter94]

Well put. Much of this team is built through the draft. That top line scorer isn't likely going to come with late picks, so they traded for Nash to fill that void. Richards is the only UFA-type making a decent amount of money.

Realistically, 3 of the top 6 offensive players were drafted by NYR: Hagelin, Stepan, Callahan.

On D, 2 of the top 6 players were drafted by NYR (Staal, MDZ), and 2 other players only ever played NHL hockey for the Rangers (Girardi, an undrafted FA, and McD who was acquired as a prospect in a smart trade).

Obviously, Hank, possibly the best NHL goalie playing right now, was also drafted by the Rangers.

The Rangers have built a lot of this team with their own picks along with players who were acquired as young prospects in good trades or as underrated free agents.

The problem isn't how many guys on the team are drafted by us, its the talent level that they possess. Everyone gets caught up on building through the draft thinking it means just making picks, having them make your team and then keeping them. That's all well and good but if your offensive homegrown players are Stepan, Hagelin and Callahan you get exactly what you have now which is guys playing above their roles and expected to fill holes they most likely can't. Nice players but not guys that can really take over offensively.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Lets try to put this in terms that you'll actually understand. This team needs to start acquiring, in any way possible, top 6 forwards that are much better than Benoit Pouliot or, yes, Mats Zuccarello.

That is easy to say on a messageboard. My question to you is if you know how to build a sure fire championship team "the right way" why are you on this board? NHL teams would pay you millions of dollars for your surefire build a championship team the right way formula. Are they just unaware that you have this special knowledge that they lack?

 

[Championship*]

Are you saying the way we should build this team is to come in dead last in the league? How many years should we do that for? I do not remember Detroit having the #1 pick for all their championships. Or the Devils. We won the cup with Mess, Leetch and Richter. There are just as many teams that have had the #1 pick without a cup as with one. Maybe more. The Isles have had at least 2 number one picks that I can think of. So has Atlanta. Come to think of it Rick Nash was a number 1 pick.

If people on this board knows the surefire way to build a championship why are we on these boards and not NHL GMs? I'm all for building through the draft but no team builds solely through the draft. There are not superstar players in every draft. You dont want to be a horrible team as a goal. Some draft years are totally bare. Championship teams and horrible teams build through the draft. Championship teams and horrible teams also make trades.

I'm just pointing out why those teams that you mentioned might not have developed already with their high end picks. Chicago, Pittsburgh are teams that have reaped the benefits of being some of the worst teams in the league. They are big market teams with a lot of money to throw around, which lets them supplement their high, can't miss draft picks with UFAs. It also helps them keep them. You keep bringing up those teams that are not big markets with infinite amounts of money to spend. Chicago had great depth (Shaw,Saad,ext) but doesn't win either cup without Kane/Toews. Pittsburgh wouldn't have won without Crosby/Malkin.

People love to bring up Detroit and the Devils, but really they are the exception that proves the rule. How have the Devils looked lately? They've haven't been the same franchise they were since before Lockout II. Scott Neidermeyer was drafted 3rd overall. That guy didn't help them win cups? The Devils were bad for a very long time when they first came into the league. Draft a generational talent, greatest goalie of all time, 20th overall. Detroit, the same way, drafted one of the greatest Defenseman of all time. You act as if they do that every year. Steve Yzerman was drafted number 3 overall. They took chances on Russians that nobody else would. Datsyuk and Zetterberg were amazing picks late in the draft. We have one of those too. How many 7th round pick superstars are in this league? Not many. Detroit stunk in the 80s.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Plenty of teams that stunk and had higher picks than #3 never came close to a championship. We had the #4 pick and chose Brendl.

Lets be fair. Lets stop debating in hindsight. Lets talk about now. You are the new Rangers GM with a 4 year deal. What do you do today that gets us a championship by the time your contract ends. Please be specific.

 

[Championship*]

Plenty of teams that stunk and had higher picks than #3 never came close to a championship. We had the #4 pick and chose Brendl.

Lets be fair. Lets stop debating in hindsight. Lets talk about now. You are the new Rangers GM with a 4 year deal. What do you do today that gets us a championship by the time your contract ends. Please be specific.

Shoot for McDavid. This kid is the next Crosby.

 

[haveandare]

The problem isn't how many guys on the team are drafted by us, its the talent level that they possess. Everyone gets caught up on building through the draft thinking it means just making picks, having them make your team and then keeping them. That's all well and good but if your offensive homegrown players are Stepan, Hagelin and Callahan you get exactly what you have now which is guys playing above their roles and expected to fill holes they most likely can't. Nice players but not guys that can really take over offensively.

I realize that talent, not number of picks, is important, but I disagree with your assessment of these players. Callahan is a 25/25 type guy. Not bad by any means, and not bad for a top 6 RW. Stepan has shown improvement on the offensive side of his game every year, and scored at nearly a PPG pace last year for 48 games. Hagelin is a great complimentary player for an offensive line. Though he shouldn't be counted on to do all the scoring, I don't think that happens very often, let alone routinely. He's regularly asked to compliment a big time scorer in Nash, and he does that well. In addition, Callahan is a great PP player, Stepan has very dependable 2 way play and Hagelin provides some of the best speed in the league. They're all good players, and they're not routinely leaned on to do more than they're capable of in my opinion.

The team is making a huge transition in philosophy and gameplan. They're going to look shaky at times. They happened to look shaky on the wrong night and got embarrassed against the Sharks. The game before, they played a good team and looked very sharp playing at a fast pace. There doesn't have to be any grand theory of why the franchise is doomed because they got blown out in an early game on an extended road trip with a new coach.

If they still look awful 40 games in, let's talk about fatal flaws in roster construction. As it is, this conversation is a knee-jerk result of a bad blowout in my opinion. People love to make chicken-little predictions and then come gloat when the team does poorly.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Shoot for McDavid. This kid is the next Crosby.

I'm glad you are being specific about who but I'm wondering how. How do you get your target?

 

[LeetchisGod]

Shoot for McDavid. This kid is the next Crosby.

I would trade half this team to get him.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Yea because you keep responding to people with this attitude that if you are so smart then why aren't you the GM and not on this message board. First of all, if that's the case we should just close this board because nobody then should have the right to an opinion. Furthermore, and quite frankly what is most hilarious, is that you imply that people posting on message boards are then by proxy not really that smart so I guess that makes you just as dumb as all of us since you are here doing the same thing!

I never called anyone dumb. I have left the name calling all to you but yes I believe we are all at the same level on this board. We are all neophytes offering our opinion. Nothing more and nothing less. None of us including the poster I was speaking with, you or I have a sure fire method to build a championship team "the right way" I never said "if you are so smart". I did ask if he had a method to build a championship team "the right way" why is he here and why are teams in the NHL not paying him millions of dollars. I think that is a legitimate question for somebody that makes that kind of presumption.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I would trade half this team to get him.

More details please. Which half of the team and to who?

 

[savebyrichter94]

I realize that talent, not number of picks, is important, but I disagree with your assessment of these players. Callahan is a 25/25 type guy. Not bad by any means, and not bad for a top 6 RW. Stepan has shown improvement on the offensive side of his game every year, and scored at nearly a PPG pace last year for 48 games. Hagelin is a great complimentary player for an offensive line. Though he shouldn't be counted on to do all the scoring, I don't think that happens very often, let alone routinely. He's regularly asked to compliment a big time scorer in Nash, and he does that well. In addition, Callahan is a great PP player, Stepan has very dependable 2 way play and Hagelin provides some of the best speed in the league. They're all good players, and they're not routinely leaned on to do more than they're capable of in my opinion.
.

Stepan being asked to be a number one is a bit of a stretch given what we have seen so far, he's a good player, they all are and I said so. If he continues his development he very well could be but one half season isn't enough proof of that yet.

Hagelin is not a 1st line player and honestly neither is Callahan, both are good on the 2nd and would be great on the 3rd. I'm not diminishing these guys, I love them. It's just that its not enough if you are going to expect to contend.

It's the same thing with UFA's and draft picks, we sign or draft guys to fill roles they either can't fill, are overpaid to do so or are project picks. What's Mcilrath supposed to do, change the whole culture of this team himself, he's just a kid. That's a lot of pressure to put on a kid expecting him to solve a problem that has plagued us for years.

If we had more talent players could slot into better suited roles for their talents, that's all I'm trying to say.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Stepan being asked to be a number one is a bit of a stretch given what we have seen so far, he's a good player, they all are and I said so. If he continues his development he very well could be nut one half season isn't enough proof of that yet.

Hagelin is not a 1st line player and honestly neither is Callahan, both are good on the 2nd and would be great on the 3rd. I'm not diminishing these guys, I love them. It's just that its not enough if you are going to expect to contend.

It's the same thing with UFA's and draft picks, we sign or draft guys to fill roles they either can't fill, are overpaid to do so or are project picks. What's Mcilrath supposed to do, change the whole culture of this team himself, he's just a kid. That's a lot of pressure to put on a kid expecting him to solve a problem that has plagued us for years.

If we had more talent players could slot into better suited roles for their talents, that's all I'm trying to say.

You are right. We do need more talent but how do we get better talent is the key question.

 

[savebyrichter94]

You are right. We do need more talent but how do we get better talent is the key question.

Well I offered my opinion on how to do so which you took as me presuming I should be GM. How about you tell me what you would do since I've already stated my thoughts.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Well I offered my opinion on how to do so which you took as me presuming I should be GM. How about you tell me what you would do since I've already stated my thoughts.

We do what we have been doing and what every team does. We try to build a competitive attitude on the team. We try to improve via the draft. If a good player becomes available via a trade or FA we consider adding that player. That is how every team in the league tries to get better but there are no sure things. Some drafts are weak. Some draft picks do not work out. Some players get injured. Some trades go bad. Some players do not live up to their free agent contracts. Some teams run in to cap problems when younger players out grow their contracts.

There are no absolutes to become a championship team. That is why I asked for everyone to say how they would win a championship if they were given a 4 year contract as GM today. It is easy to say build through the draft and then trade for other players while ignoring all the pitfalls. We drafted three pretty good players over the years that we lost to injury/death. We had draft picks that were busts. There have been number 1 overall picks that were busts. Every GM in the NHL wants to win a championship and if there was one "right way" to build a championship team every NHL gm would be doing that plan year after year.

 

[pld459666]

Plenty of teams that stunk and had higher picks than #3 never came close to a championship. We had the #4 pick and chose Brendl.

Lets be fair. Lets stop debating in hindsight. Lets talk about now. You are the new Rangers GM with a 4 year deal. What do you do today that gets us a championship by the time your contract ends. Please be specific.

I'll answer this later. I like this question.

 

[savebyrichter94]

We do what we have been doing and what every team does. We try to build a competitive attitude on the team. We try to improve via the draft. If a good player becomes available via a trade or FA we consider adding that player. That is how every team in the league tries to get better but there are no sure things. Some drafts are weak. Some draft picks do not work out. Some players get injured. Some trades go bad. Some players do not live up to their free agent contracts. Some teams run in to cap problems when younger players out grow their contracts.

There are no absolutes to become a championship team. That is why I asked for everyone to say how they would win a championship if they were given a 4 year contract as GM today. It is easy to say build through the draft and then trade for other players while ignoring all the pitfalls. We drafted three pretty good players over the years that we lost to injury/death. We had draft picks that were busts. There have been number 1 overall picks that were busts. Every GM in the NHL wants to win a championship and if there was one "right way" to build a championship team every NHL gm would be doing that plan year after year.

The notion that everyone would be winning if they did what I suggested is something you said, not me. I never said it was a surefire way to win. You asked for an opinion and you got one.

Yes, some drafts suck, some picks busts, some trades don't work out but you have to try. You asked me how do we acquire more skill and talent? I believe that you basically have to pay your dues, lose when you should lose and make smart moves.

If you develop and acquire players that are good but never great its kinda hard to win a cup when other teams with just as much resources to spend on UFA's also have talent they picked towards the top of the draft. You don't have to pick number one but top 10 picks on a consistent basis does help. Also, when we have had those types of picks we made poor choices with them as well as making poor choices later in the first and beyond.

I think the real key to success in the NHL is to have a team that has had poor seasons resulting in higher picks, making the right choices with those picks and then having the resources to supplement them through Free Agency. It's not an easy road but I think its better than hoping you win the lottery with a team of 2nd/3rd liners. If you want to win its best to increase your odds by having more and better options to choose from. It all starts with the draft, if you can't develop stars then you have to draft good enough to trade for them, just be prepared for people to be upset when those homegrown guys get shipped out.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

The notion that there are many ways to win in the NHL is true. Theres one theme behind all the success stories. Commitment. Say what you want about Pittsburgh and Chicago, but they committed to a direction, stuck to it, and reaped the benefits.

We have a GM that makes knee-jerk decisions about personnel, playing style, and coaches at the drop of a dime. The Rangers will never win again with this zig zagging philosophy.

 

[OverTheCap]

One thing is for certain - building a team through free agency is not the way to go. Most players who hit free agency are either past their prime or in the midst of their prime, so the window for them to be at their most productive is short. And many of the generational talents that we would be interested in are probably going to be retained by their teams anyway.

Drafting is the best option because it will give the team young, cost-controlled talent in their prime years. How to go about drafting that talent is the issue. They would need to bring in some brilliant hockey minds and excellent scouts to do what Detroit did with their late round draft picks on a consistent basis. Personally, I like what Boston did with Kessel - trade one of our young players for a bunch of 1st and 2nd round picks to a rebuilding team so we have a better chance of drafting in the top 5. It would probably mean parting with Stepan or McD though.

 

[The Gloaming]

One thing is for certain - building a team through free agency is not the way to go. Most players who hit free agency are either past their prime or in the midst of their prime, so the window for them to be at their most productive is short. And many of the generational talents that we would be interested in are probably going to be retained by their teams anyway.

Drafting is the best option because it will give the team young, cost-controlled talent in their prime years. How to go about drafting that talent is the issue. They would need to bring in some brilliant hockey minds and excellent scouts to do what Detroit did with their late round draft picks on a consistent basis. Personally, I like what Boston did with Kessel - trade one of our young players for a bunch of 1st and 2nd round picks to a rebuilding team so we have a better chance of drafting in the top 5. It would probably mean parting with Stepan or McD though.

No one was expecting the Leafs to be so bad that year. Boston probably thought they'd be picking 7th or later.

 

[frankthefrowner]

How did the caps looks early last year in a new system... how did they finish?

 

[NickyFotiu]

The notio
I think the real key to success in the NHL is to have a team that has had poor seasons resulting in higher picks, making the right choices with those picks and then having the resources to supplement them through Free Agency. It's not an easy road but I think its better than hoping you win the lottery with a team of 2nd/3rd liners. If you want to win its best to increase your odds by having more and better options to choose from. It all starts with the draft, if you can't develop stars then you have to draft good enough to trade for them, just be prepared for people to be upset when those homegrown guys get shipped out.

Okay so if you just replaced Slats today with a 4 year contract. What are you going to do get all those losing seasons and higher draft picks? Trade away all our better young players like Stepan, Hags, Lundy, Staal, Mcd? Tell them not to win? What would be your plan?