Larry Brooks: Rangers/Red Wings Trouba Talks Heating up, NYR would retain $2.5

[bleedblue94]

So were supposed to treat his NTC as a NMC then. That's essentially what we would be doing.

Maybe he should play for 4 million per year on the rest of his contract then

I edited a previous reply. I think you're right actually.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Of course the NHLPA will bitch & moan, but too f***ing bad. We deal with this LTIR bullshit all the time, it's time for us to exploit the loopholes.


Do you have a link? I didn't read or hear anything regarding this.

If theres nothing written that prevents this from happening, what can the league do other than shake their fists and say that its looked down upon?

You can't retroactively make changes with out having everyone sign off on them. If the Rangers are using waivers for means that you didn't intend them to be used then thats your f***ing fault -No different than the LTIR stuff. I'm sure the league didn't intend LTIR to be used by certain teams to bank extra cap space so they could ice a playoff roster 10-20 million over the limit or for cap floor teams who are trying to be bad to acquire said players just so they can hit the salary threshold.

 

[Hire Sather]

I edited a previous reply. I think you're right actually bc I read up something else on the cba that I missed. Precedent with Tyler Johnson.

I see. I actually did not know that clearing waivers voided the NTC.

That's interesting and should mean there's no stopping this deal now

 

[bleedblue94]

Of course the NHLPA will bitch & moan, but too f***ing bad. We deal with this LTIR bullshit all the time, it's time for us to exploit the loopholes.


Do you have a link? I didn't read or hear anything regarding this.

I made another post. I think I was wrong. I just was reading something on the cba.

So I guess let's see where this circus ends up...

 

[DanielBrassard]

I see. I actually did not know that clearing waivers voided the NTC.

That's interesting and should mean there's no stopping this deal now

Is that true? If he goes unclaimed his no-trade clause is no more?

 

[bleedblue94]

How is it circumvention when a no-trade clause doesn’t prohibit someone from being put on waivers? It might be a loophole but even that is a stretch. He had a no-move clause but it expires.

Yeah I acknowledged I was wrong. Precedent with Tyler Johnson and others. My mistake. This circus is going to get more interesting but if he is waived for Detroit then that means they can't retain and it makes the deal much more complicated IF the wings are even willing to claim at that point. Maybe they just hope for a buyout and then sign him cheaper than 5.5m

I see. I actually did not know that clearing waivers voided the NTC.

That's interesting and should mean there's no stopping this deal now

I don't know if that is fully accurate or it's more of a language item. I can't imagine it voids the ntc in reality but it could in practicality maybe? I'm not sure exactly so please don't hang you hat on that.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Is that true? If he goes unclaimed his no-trade clause is no more?

I think thats the Tyler Johnson scenario that was referenced.

He had a full NTC (may have converted to partial), was waived, cleared waivers and then ended up traded to Chicago.

I don't remember if he had to give his blessing to go to Chicago or not but it happened.

 

[bleedblue94]

@GoAwayPanarin you're correct:

"The NTC does not affect waiver claims, and any team can claim a player who is waived. However, if a player clears waivers, their NTC is still in effect, and they can still block trades to certain teams"

 

[bobbop]

If you use waivers to circumvent a NTC then yes it is circumvention.

No it is not.

See: Barclay Goodrow

 

[bleedblue94]

No it is not.

See: Barclay Goodrow

It's circumvention by definition, you are literally circumventing a players NTC, but it's allowed circumvention per the rules and structure of the league.

 

[bobbop]

Here’s the bottom line…

The Rangers seem intent on moving Trouba. That wound exists.

No matter how hard an ass Kurt Overholt is (and he is a well known hard ass) he knows there is a limited NT list and there is not a no movement clause. He negotiated the original contract.

The Rangers may choose to keep Trouba but they will not be forced to keep him. The Rangers hold the cards.

So…the odds are very long that Trouba is going to be playing somewhere else next year. The objective now for the player and the agent is to get Trouba somewhere he is willing to go.

Any questions?

 

[Hire Sather]

So basically DET would have to take on the full cap but.

Not basically, they would.

Certainly makes things more difficult, but the added incentive of Trouba not getting his way makes me want to add to the deal to get it done.

I never liked him in Winnipeg because of his contract shenanigans. Grew to like him after the trade because he's a Ranger and his stances on social issues.

But now he's become an anchor to the team. Has to go.

 

[bobbop]

It's circumvention by definition, you are literally circumventing a players NTC, but it's allowed circumvention per the rules and structure of the league.

It’s happened other times. It’s part of a process negotiated with the union and the players individual contract. It may be a clever end around but it is not circumvention.

 

[Crease]

It’s circumvention if every team ahead of SJS on the waiver priority list agreed to not put in a claim for Goodrow, and SJS agreed to give NYR some sort of consideration in the future. But that kind of collusion probably didn’t happen.

Maybe next CBA they change no movement clauses and no trade clauses to “no team clauses.”

 

[bleedblue94]

Here’s the bottom line…

The Rangers seem intent on moving Trouba. That wound exists.

No matter how hard an ass Kurt Overholt is (and he is a well known hard ass) he knows there is a limited NT list and there is not a no movement clause. He negotiated the original contract.

The Rangers may choose to keep Trouba but they will not be forced to keep him. The Rangers hold the cards.

So…the odds are very long that Trouba is going to be playing somewhere else next year. The objective now for the player and the agent is to get Trouba somewhere he is willing to go.

Any questions?

Posted this earlier:


If trouba doesn't want to leave NYR then all he and his agent need to do it's build out his nt list to tie Drury. It's not that hard to id 16 teams throughout the league that probably wouldn't trade for him anyways. So all he needs to do is add the 15 other teams to his list that might trade for him and then Drury is locked.

If trouba doesn't want to be traded he just submits a list like this
Ntc Anaheim
Boston
Ntc Buffalo
Ntc Calgary
Carolina
Ntc Chicago
Colorado
Ntc Columbus
Dallas
Ntc Detroit
Edmonton
Florida
Los Angeles
Minnesota
Ntc Montreal
Ntc Nashville
New Jersey
NYI
Ntc Ottawa
Ntc Philadelphia
Pittsburgh
Ntc St. Louis
Ntc San Jose
Seattle
Tampa
Ntc Toronto
Ntc Utah
Ntc Washington
Winnipeg
Vancouver
Vegas

I've virtually landlocked him into staying in NYR by accounting for teams available cap space for his contract, team need for the position, team focus on analytics, and just using a brain about who would/wouldn't actually add him (like Winnipeg isn't trading for him).

Sure a waiver claim is possible, but it's extremely low probability. I'm not sure that the team has the type of leverage or control of this situation that you're projecting. The only thing that's certain is that this is becoming a circus, and a very public circus at that

 

[Hire Sather]

It’s happened other times. It’s part of a process negotiated with the union and the players individual contract. It may be a clever end around but it is not circumvention.

Yes I don't know why that word keeps being used.

His contract doesn't protect him against Waivers. It's as simple as that to me.

 

[bleedblue94]

It’s happened other times. It’s part of a process negotiated with the union and the players individual contract. It may be a clever end around but it is not circumvention.

It's circumvention, it's literally getting around a clause.

Circumvention definition: the act of bypassing or going around something.

In the case of the NHL, this is acceptable legal circumvention, but its circumvention never the less...

 

[Hire Sather]

Posted this earlier:


If trouba doesn't want to leave NYR then all he and his agent need to do it's build out his nt list to tie Drury. It's not that hard to id 16 teams throughout the league that probably wouldn't trade for him anyways. So all he needs to do is add the 15 other teams to his list that might trade for him and then Drury is locked.

If trouba doesn't want to be traded he just submits a list like this
Ntc Anaheim
Boston
Ntc Buffalo
Ntc Calgary
Carolina
Ntc Chicago
Colorado
Ntc Columbus
Dallas
Ntc Detroit
Edmonton
Florida
Los Angeles
Minnesota
Ntc Montreal
Ntc Nashville
New Jersey
NYI
Ntc Ottawa
Ntc Philadelphia
Pittsburgh
Ntc St. Louis
Ntc San Jose
Seattle
Tampa
Ntc Toronto
Ntc Utah
Ntc Washington
Winnipeg
Vancouver
Vegas

I've virtually landlocked him into staying in NYR by accounting for teams available cap space for his contract, team need for the position, team focus on analytics, and just using a brain about who would/wouldn't actually add him (like Winnipeg isn't trading for him).

Sure a waiver claim is possible, but it's extremely low probability. I'm not sure that the team has the type of leverage or control of this situation that you're projecting. The only thing that's certain is that this is becoming a circus, and a very public circus at that

If he does this Isn't he "circumventing" the same way we are trying to?

It's in the same vein as what we'd be doing

 

[DanielBrassard]

Posted this earlier:


If trouba doesn't want to leave NYR then all he and his agent need to do it's build out his nt list to tie Drury. It's not that hard to id 16 teams throughout the league that probably wouldn't trade for him anyways. So all he needs to do is add the 15 other teams to his list that might trade for him and then Drury is locked.

If trouba doesn't want to be traded he just submits a list like this
Ntc Anaheim
Boston
Ntc Buffalo
Ntc Calgary
Carolina
Ntc Chicago
Colorado
Ntc Columbus
Dallas
Ntc Detroit
Edmonton
Florida
Los Angeles
Minnesota
Ntc Montreal
Ntc Nashville
New Jersey
NYI
Ntc Ottawa
Ntc Philadelphia
Pittsburgh
Ntc St. Louis
Ntc San Jose
Seattle
Tampa
Ntc Toronto
Ntc Utah
Ntc Washington
Winnipeg
Vancouver
Vegas

I've virtually landlocked him into staying in NYR by accounting for teams available cap space for his contract, team need for the position, team focus on analytics, and just using a brain about who would/wouldn't actually add him (like Winnipeg isn't trading for him).

Sure a waiver claim is possible, but it's extremely low probability. I'm not sure that the team has the type of leverage or control of this situation that you're projecting. The only thing that's certain is that this is becoming a circus, and a very public circus at that

If the Rangers retain I could potentially see Dallas interested. Their RD is pretty thin.

 

[bleedblue94]

Yes I don't know why that word keeps being used.

His contract doesn't protect him against Waivers. It's as simple as that to me.

Because the actual definition of the word circumvention applies to what is being proposed, but we've all been conditioned that the term circumvention has to do with a punishable offense because the term was most used with those back diving contracts that the league started penalizing teams for. And if people recall correctly, at the time those kind of contracts were acceptable by the league with no actual rules against them, but because they started being abused the league started penalizing teams. I'm not saying it's going to happen in this situation, but if this kind of waiver game starts becoming more popular than this is going to become an issue with the league and the PA

If he does this Isn't he "circumventing" the same way we are trying to?

It's in the same vein as what we'd be doing

Not at all, he's exercising his contractual right.

He would just be doing it in a very strategic way.

 

[Hire Sather]

Because the actual definition of the word circumvention applies to what is being proposed, but we've all been conditioned that the term circumvention has to do with a punishable offense because the term was most used with those back diving contracts that the league started penalizing teams for. And if people recall correctly, at the time those kind of contracts were acceptable by the league with no actual rules against them, but because they started being abused the league started penalizing teams. I'm not saying it's going to happen in this situation, but if this kind of waiver game starts becoming more popular than this is going to become an issue with the league and the PA

Oh I don't doubt that it's something that could be changed in the next CBA.

But that change would involve making a NTC and NMC the same thing.

Because as long as they are different.. they are.. different and it's hard to imagine this workaround wasn't though of before the CBA was agreed upon.

 

[bleedblue94]

If the Rangers retain I could potentially see Dallas interested. Their RD is pretty thin.

That's an interesting thought, but I don't see that really as a fit. I look at tanev And they prioritized an rd that could skate. One trouba's biggest issues has been the decline in his skating. Dallas generally does not add players that are not good skaters

 

[Hire Sather]

Not at all, he's exercising his contractual right.

He would just be doing it in a very strategic way.

And are we not exercising ours?

 

[DanielBrassard]

That's an interesting thought, but I don't see that really as a fit. I look at tanev And they prioritized an rd that could skate. One trouba's biggest issues has been the decline in his skating. Dallas generally does not add players that are not good skaters

Fair, but they have 2D signed at the moment, with Harley and Lundkvist as RFAs, 19M in cap room. Not a ton of RD out on the FA market. Rangers could take back Faksa if need be.

 

[bleedblue94]

Oh I don't doubt that it's something that could be changed in the next CBA.

But that change would involve making a NTC and NMC the same thing.

Because as long as they are different.. they are.. different and it's hard to imagine this workaround wasn't though of before the CBA was agreed upon.

It was, see Todd Marchant.

I think where we're getting separated here is that you look at it and say there's no hard rule in place right now so nothing can happen, I'm just looking at it as that doesn't mean that the league absolutely isn't going to step in at some point and do something. Bettman has unilateral power to do whatever you want if he sees an issue.

I don't think it matters because I don't see a world where the team claims him on waivers. I don't think there's any point even having an argument about it. And if the Red wings are going to claim him off waivers as part of a previously agreed upon package then the trade package changes substantially because now instead of taking 5.5 million they're taking the full eight million.

The situation is a complete mess

Fair, but they have 2D signed at the moment, with Harley and Lundkvist as RFAs, 19M in cap room. Not a ton of RD out on the FA market. Rangers could take back Faksa if need be.

Crazier things have happened but I just don't see that team as a match with that player. He just doesn't fit anything that they have done since Nill has been there.