UAGoalieGuy
Registered User
When Wisconsin beat them this weekend Arizona State was ranked #9 in the country. After the 2 losses they are now ranked #14. So don't think that they are some second rate team this season.
Prospect Info: Rangers Prospect Thread (Player Stats/Info in Post #1; Updated 5.12.20)
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When Wisconsin beat them this weekend Arizona State was ranked #9 in the country. After the 2 losses they are now ranked #14. So don't think that they are some second rate team this season.
cozandeffect
Ask Me About Barron
While the polls have overrated ASU previously, this is a seriously good win for the Badgers because they've been an overall embarrassment in a pretty mediocre Big 10.
The longer this college season goes on, the more that sweep of UMD looks absolutely insane.
It’s easier to watch ASU on the road than at their rink, seen them in Irvine, Vegas & Allentown since they made the jump. Johnny Walker is easily their best player and I don’t think he’s a NHLer. If they’re a good team, then college hockey is garbage.
Amazing Kreiderman
Registered User
- Apr 11, 2011
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If ASU is as bad as you say they are, Miller should dominate against them.
In the NCAA you can have a team made up of mature guys aged 21-24 who have played with each other for 3-4 years. They may not have legitimate NHL prospects but they're a well-oiled machine. There's nothing wrong or unusual with that. It's like saying the AHL is garbage because they have a good teM that is made up mostly of veteran AHL guys and 4A players but have no real, solid prospects. It doesn't make the league garbage. I know you like to call everything garbage but it's silly.
Just as a comparison, ASU has an average age right at about 22. Some teams are older. Wisconsin is 21. That year makes a big difference. It's another year of physical maturity and another year playing together with your teammates. It's an advantage that can help neutralize superior talent. It's just how college sports work.
No different than NCAA basketball where you see a mid-major that might have one guy seen as a fringe NBA prospect knocking off a super-talented traditional power. The mid-major is loaded with Juniors and Seniors and have been playing as a unit for years. The bigger, more talented program has some future NBA stars who will all be gone after 1-2 years. The talent is somewhat negated by playing against a more refined, team-oriented group on the mid-major. It doesn't mean NCAA basketball sucks. It just reflects a reality that in college sports you have a 3-4 year window with players and really good players generally aren't there past 2-3 years or less.
And yet, despite this, guys coming from college are often the most well-prepared North American players, coming out closer to stepping into the NHL than their younger, less-developed CHL counterparts. Not a rule by any means but a general observation. It's also why college UDFA players are in higher demand each year than CHL guys. Just a different situation that prepares guys differently. But to say the NCAA is garbage because a well-coached, veteran team like ASU can beat "better" teams is somehow garbage, just ignores a whole host of factors. And is objectively false.
No different than NCAA basketball where you see a mid-major that might have one guy seen as a fringe NBA prospect knocking off a super-talented traditional power. The mid-major is loaded with Juniors and Seniors and have been playing as a unit for years. The bigger, more talented program has some future NBA stars who will all be gone after 1-2 years. The talent is somewhat negated by playing against a more refined, team-oriented group on the mid-major. It doesn't mean NCAA basketball sucks. It just reflects a reality that in college sports you have a 3-4 year window with players and really good players generally aren't there past 2-3 years or less.
And yet, despite this, guys coming from college are often the most well-prepared North American players, coming out closer to stepping into the NHL than their younger, less-developed CHL counterparts. Not a rule by any means but a general observation. It's also why college UDFA players are in higher demand each year than CHL guys. Just a different situation that prepares guys differently. But to say the NCAA is garbage because a well-coached, veteran team like ASU can beat "better" teams is somehow garbage, just ignores a whole host of factors. And is objectively false.
cozandeffect
Ask Me About Barron
College hockey has changed significantly in the last 10 years. You can't just get all the talent anymore, you're not just recruiting against 1 other school if you're in Boston or 2-3 others if you're out west. Teams like UMD, St. Cloud, Providence, Cornell, the UMasses, and even Harvard, have made it more attractive to go there with incredibly solid foundations and a chance if they're good enough to be a big piece of a winning team. A guy like Dylan Samberg, from Minnesota played high school not junior, was a 2nd round pick and should've been a walk in for the Gophers. Instead he walks into UMD's top-4 and wins back-to-back natty's. A team's program guys and overall depth are way more important in college hockey than in the pros, with the obvious exception of a transcendent player like Jack Eichel.
Look at BC specifically in comparison to UW. Both struggled a bit with the new reality of recruiting. It's taken a few years but BC has depth in place so that when they get a guy like Alex Newhook, he can get a big role, but not be forced to be the leader. Of their top 6 scorers, only 1 is an underclassman and it's Newhook. Boldy is 7th. Wisconsin's top 6 scorers are an even mix with 3 underclassmen in the top 4. The difference between Caufield and Newhook is that if you took Newhook off BC, they'd be worse but still probably a tournament team. If you took Caufield off of Wisconsin, they might be the worst team in the country.
Look at BC specifically in comparison to UW. Both struggled a bit with the new reality of recruiting. It's taken a few years but BC has depth in place so that when they get a guy like Alex Newhook, he can get a big role, but not be forced to be the leader. Of their top 6 scorers, only 1 is an underclassman and it's Newhook. Boldy is 7th. Wisconsin's top 6 scorers are an even mix with 3 underclassmen in the top 4. The difference between Caufield and Newhook is that if you took Newhook off BC, they'd be worse but still probably a tournament team. If you took Caufield off of Wisconsin, they might be the worst team in the country.
GeorgeKaplan
Registered User
Well you’d ruin the narrative that all the prospects are bad actually because all the leagues in the world aren’t any good
Joey Bones
***** 2k16
@coz21
A perfect example of this, on the other side, could be Sacred Heart, my alma mater. They have sucked for years, but this year they've been killing it and might actually have a chance to make it to the frozen four. First time in school history!! This is because Bobby Valentine (yes, ex-Met manager) has been recruiting like crazy the past few years and is trying to build good sport programs in an otherwise lackluster D1 department (which is also dope because they soon will be getting their own ice rink on campus and won't have to use Webster Bank Arena anymore). But when looking at the stat sheet and watching games, these kids don't have any sort of NHL future. Their leading scorer, Jason Cotton, is 25 and has barely a PPG pace. Some teams its all systems, rather than pro rated prospects like Newhook or Caufield. They beat Yale and Quinnipiac for the CT Tourney last month, their first ever, without any crazy rated prospects.
A perfect example of this, on the other side, could be Sacred Heart, my alma mater. They have sucked for years, but this year they've been killing it and might actually have a chance to make it to the frozen four. First time in school history!! This is because Bobby Valentine (yes, ex-Met manager) has been recruiting like crazy the past few years and is trying to build good sport programs in an otherwise lackluster D1 department (which is also dope because they soon will be getting their own ice rink on campus and won't have to use Webster Bank Arena anymore). But when looking at the stat sheet and watching games, these kids don't have any sort of NHL future. Their leading scorer, Jason Cotton, is 25 and has barely a PPG pace. Some teams its all systems, rather than pro rated prospects like Newhook or Caufield. They beat Yale and Quinnipiac for the CT Tourney last month, their first ever, without any crazy rated prospects.
cozandeffect
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Fitzy
Very Stable Genius
- Jan 29, 2009
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That's often what it amounts to yeah. Some of the older teams are basically a full ECHL level squad in terms of ability and maturity.
- Sep 1, 2010
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yep
we were fortunate to have a family connection, and be engaged with the Union hockey team during their run of
3 ECAC season titles, 3 ECAC playoff titles, 2 Frozen Fours and the NCAA title in 2014.
Only 1 NHL draftee (Gostisbehere) but they plowed through BC and Gophers (Brady S) in Philly, to win the title, despite both those teams having a dozen, or more, draftees.
They were an older team, like many college teams, guys who they recruited spent their 18 (and maybe 19) year old seasons in US, or lower Canadian, Junior (like when Fogarty was at Penticton, or NYR's Hughes at Victoria last season)
Only Ghost established an NHL career, Daniel Carr and Josh Jooris (NYR, etc) had some NHL success,
Jeremy Welsh i believe still has the highest ever Cap Hit (for his 1 game during the 2012 season, in the last game, for StL, 2 days after the Frozen 4 semi's loss at Tampa.
But almost all of those guys had their hockey peaks in college. And that's ok.
EDIT - i suspect someone might have the urge to challenge the Welsh statement, so here is this
| SEASON | CLAUSE | CAP HIT | AAV |
| 2011-12 | $17,945,000 | $17,945,000 |
CAP HIT: This is a one year contract that was signed after the start of the season, and is therefore subject to an increased cap hit value as explained in the FAQ
NHL CBA FAQ - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps
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n8
WAAAAAAA!!!
Amazing Kreiderman
Registered User
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n8
WAAAAAAA!!!
so how much did he get paid for that one game?
edit: i think i see. one game, $92,500 signing bonus * days in the season? they've changed this though, haven't they? otherwise you couldn't sign a player coming out of college with a signing bonus in the same year.
Amazing Kreiderman
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Serious question for my NCAA experts...
I’ve heard from some people that Wisconsin is a real dumpster fire right now. Underperforming for sure but not a great development environment for players (sounds a little like Minnesota was a few years ago)
My question is if Miller is better off staying for a third year or turning pro and spending a year in Hartford with Knoblauch and Murphy. I think I’ve seen and heard enough that he needs additional development. Where’s the best place for him to get it?
I’ve heard from some people that Wisconsin is a real dumpster fire right now. Underperforming for sure but not a great development environment for players (sounds a little like Minnesota was a few years ago)
My question is if Miller is better off staying for a third year or turning pro and spending a year in Hartford with Knoblauch and Murphy. I think I’ve seen and heard enough that he needs additional development. Where’s the best place for him to get it?
Wisconsin has ranged from bad to above average, with more seasons in the "bad" category, for a decade now. The program really struggles. Even with good recruiting classes, they suck. Granato can't do it. They play like they're lost. This is not an observation unique to me, but one made by plenty of pundits. They last won a conference title like 20 years ago or something.
Hartford plays a good, structured system with Knoblauch down there. Shesterkin helped them overperform, but they're still a solid group. I think Miller would thrive there. He just needs to play. Experience is his best development tool at this point. Beyond that, the Rangers can bring in any number of good pros to help him develop. He won't have such a physical advantage in Hartford and will have to adapt. He has been good lately, and what I see is a guy who could at least stay above water in the AHL.
I think you sign him yesterday.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
Speaking only for myself, I'm really torn. I feel like I can argue it either way.
The environment they've created in Hartford could be very good for Miller. But I do have some concerns about the speed of that league with where Miller is at right now. So it's a calculated risk.
Joey Bones
***** 2k16
I’d second what @nyr2k2 said. Besides, K’Andre seems to get systematic hockey. Think Knoblauch can teach him the system and still be able to show off his talent.
Also think, ATM, K’Andre is way better than some defenders Hartford has already (*cough* LoVerde)
- Sep 1, 2010
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yeah its odd how the HWP D corps has evolved this season, with
Day and Crawley out of the picture, 3 AHL guys getting so much ice time (LoVerde, Geertsen lots, Taylor some too)
Rykov in and out, in-season acquisition journeyman Ebert getting ice,
and now with Lindgren up and Keane gone, undrafted Raddysh as the constant.
Now with Skjei gone from NYR, and Rykov not 100%. Hajek is likely a call-up sooner than for his own good.
Come end of season and playoffs, they may be leaning on Tarmo, Robertson, or if he turns pro.
Lovely spin job there. Much like Liiga, their job isn’t to prepare players for the NHL, their job is to win. So they win with what they can get their hands on for the long term, and hope they can lasso a comet once in a while to glory.
Whoop de doo.
If that’s the kind of thing you like, then you’re gonna like that thing. I don’t, yet I watch these leagues on the off chance I see someone who someday might play for the Rangers.
That prism makes for a more honest evaluation of talent.
Your opinion is that watching the leagues every once in a while, when it might relate to a future impact player for the Rangers, makes for a more honest assessment than watching the league regularly? Yeah ok. I still watch a decent amount of CHL games, and watch games from Sweden and Liiga games when I have downtime at work. I think the "prism" through which I'm evaluating things is pretty balanced, and fair.
I understand the limitations of the NCAA. You saying things like, "They're not there to develop talent for the NHL, they're there to win!" is one of the biggest "No shit!" statements that could be made about the league. The NCAA is not a development league and no one said it was.
You said college hockey is garbage because a team like ASU, lacking legitimate NHL prospects, is considered good. I said your statement was garbage. One of the advantages to NCAA hockey is it is a structured environment for North American prospects with opposition that is generally more physically mature than what could be found elsewhere. It's why an increasing amount of players are taking the NCAA route in general and more Canadian players specifically. It's a good place to develop. Teams like ASU, who carry a lot of upperclassmen, are good to have around. As Fitzy--who knows a thing or two about D1 hockey himself--alluded to, programs like that are often loaded with ECHL-caliber guys. For someone like K'Andre Miller, that's a good test. It's a good test for a lot of kids, particularly those that are smart and skilled but maybe still haven't grown into their frames. Or, kids like Miller, who have physical gifts but need to learn the structure. He could be in the CHL just pushing everyone around, but to what end?
IDK. The USNTDP to NCAA route is becoming increasingly popular for mid- and high-end US prospects. NCAA hockey is becoming increasingly popular for Canadian and even European players (there's a record number of Europeans playing D1). NCAA hockey is probably better now, and more highly regarded now, than at any point certainly in my lifetime. So to see you come in and trash it because of f***ing ASU is just...weird.
just based off stats, it looks like Raddysh deserves a shot, but he is a RD. I vaguely remember Geersten in training camp. He looked ok , nice size and toughness , no offense and adequate D. His size/toughness would be nice teamed with ADA who could make up for the lack of Geersten offense. You guys that have seen him in Hartford this year what is his skating like? Good, Bad or just Ugly?
The Rangers currently don't hold his contract, Hartford does. Rangers currently have 4 contract openings and I am sure they would like to hold open slots for free agent and other signings.
The Rangers currently don't hold his contract, Hartford does. Rangers currently have 4 contract openings and I am sure they would like to hold open slots for free agent and other signings.
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