Post-Game Talk: Rangers @ Penguins 3/16/13 - Manbearpig Strikes Again

[Unpredictable1]

It's not necessarily that Dubinsky and Anisimov were irreplaceable players.

Last year's roster was built for and partially by Tortorella. As such, the roster performed well under him.

This year, though, the roster is a lot different. It's much more top-heavy and there is less depth up front. Sather didn't replace the depth he lost in Prust, Fedotenko, Mitchell, Dubinsky, and Anisimov. He added Pyatt and Asham. He also expected Kreider to be a contributor at this level right out of the gate, as most of us did. He's now in the AHL.

Frankly, I'm done looking for answers as to why this team is playing so poorly. To me, it looks like a team that has tuned out it's coach, but I digress. It's on the players, the GM, and the coaching staff to figure out and correct the problems. All of them.

I would trade Asham and Pyatt for Dubi and Anisimov in a heartbeat. Of course, no team would do that though. (in our favor)

 

[Kershaw]

I would trade Asham and Pyatt for Dubi and Anisimov in a heartbeat. Of course, no team would do that though. (in our favor)

Depth is the big problem with the team. Zero offense in the bottom 6. If we had Dubi/AA/Feds/Prust, they'd produce enough offensively over a string of games to keep us in it, even if the top 6 isn't producing up to standards. TBH, the top 6 doesn't deserve much blame because I expected them to produce at the rate they're at right now. It's the dreaded bottom 6 of the lineup that is absolutely killing us out there. Asham/Pyatt/Halpern/Miller/Haley/Boyle are all terrible players offensively. This is why we're dead last in goals for.

There is a big difference. Dubi and AA could play top 6/bottom 6. No one on our bottom 6 is capable. Thus, forcing us to continue to roll out the slumping players.

 

[Unpredictable1]

Depth is the big problem with the team. Zero offense in the bottom 6. If we had Dubi/AA/Feds/Prust, they'd produce enough offensively over a string of games to keep us in it, even if the top 6 isn't producing up to standards. TBH, the top 6 doesn't deserve much blame because I expected them to produce at the rate they're at right now. It's the dreaded bottom 6 of the lineup that is absolutely killing us out there. Asham/Pyatt/Halpern/Miller/Haley/Boyle are all terrible players offensively. This is why we're dead last in goals for.

There is a big difference. Dubi and AA could play top 6/bottom 6. No one on our bottom 6 is capable. Thus, forcing us to continue to roll out the slumping players.

That's just it, those in our bottom 6 would be great



I'm sorry fellas, long time fan here and I've been drinking. Me missing some of a game or all of a game is unheard of in my house. I always somehow arrange to watch the Rangers play. But it's easier to leave it for other things in life recently and I don't like that. (no NHL Center Ice back then but Kelly Kisio was the Captain I believe, Patrick on defense, Beezer was starter doin maybe 50 something games)

Watchin Richards and Gaborik lately hurts. I really hope those fellas turn it around I really do. Gabs back on RW today was refreshing.

 

[Ail]

It's not necessarily that Dubinsky and Anisimov were irreplaceable players.

Last year's roster was built for and partially by Tortorella. As such, the roster performed well under him.

This year, though, the roster is a lot different. It's much more top-heavy and there is less depth up front. Sather didn't replace the depth he lost in Prust, Fedotenko, Mitchell, Dubinsky, and Anisimov. He added Pyatt and Asham. He also expected Kreider to be a contributor at this level right out of the gate, as most of us did. He's now in the AHL.

Frankly, I'm done looking for answers as to why this team is playing so poorly. To me, it looks like a team that has tuned out it's coach, but I digress. It's on the players, the GM, and the coaching staff to figure out and correct the problems. All of them.

Yes, and people seem to be confusing poor replacement of depth with the Nash trade being a bad move. You do the Nash trade 10/10 times. The problem here is the bottom six sucks, specifically the third line. They need a legit 3rd C who is a two-way player and has some offense. On a deep team this guy is actually closer to a 2C, but forced to a 3C due to depth. Then they need Kreider to pull his head out of his ass, he needed to be the 2 LW. Callahan would be the perfect 3 RW on a team where Gaborik isn't playing like ass.

The fourth line is actually good, but the 3rd line is so bad it puts more pressure on them to play above their heads. This needs to be remedied for next season.

Move Gaborik at the draft for top 6 depth to fill holes and a 1st.
Sign or trade for the right 3C or let OL/Miller fill it if they're ready.
Kreider has to be ready for the #2 LW, or they have to sign/trade for one.
Trade Boyle or force him to 4C where he belongs.
Pyatt is Redundant and I don't like him at 3LW I'd rather call up Hrivik and give him a shot there.
Make the 4th line Pyatt/Boyle/Powe/Asham/Haley in whatever combination seems most fitting.
Fill in Fasth somwhere if he is ready.
Richards gets one more season.

Hagelin-Stepan-Nash
Kreider-Richards-X (Trade/Fasth)
Hrivik-X (Trade/OL) Calahan
Aforementioned 4th line

A younger team with less experience but far more potential than this haphazard mess. As long as the prospects can step in, filling the holes is relatively easy. If they aren't Sather may use them as chips instead to fill them. I'd rather wait and let the holes fill themselves from within. The only two assets I am okay moving in the off-season are Gaborik and Boyle but only for the right returns and if they have proper replacements for them.

Whatever they do they need to keep getting younger and developing depth from within. No more band-aids. Only move young players who are redundant or not fitting the team identity.

 

[gravey9]

The issue with this team is quite simple. It's identity. The team make up is just off. Last season, they had 10 out 12 (not gabby or richards) forwards that played the same way. Speed, size and some skill. They were good defensively, great on the forecheck and wore down their opponents.

This year's team has top 2 lines can't really play that style consistently without getting banged up. And the bottom two lines really lack speed and skill to be effective at that style. Separately, the D is a mess too, but fixable.

So, what exactly is this team? What's the style that allows them to be effective? And where do they go from here?

The kids who have the best shot at making it next year... Will Lindberg, Fasth, Kreider, Thomas cure this identity crisis or make it worse? The one guy who could really help cure part of what ails this team is, ironically, Dylan Mcilrath. (and... also a true offensive minded D)

 

[NY Lito]

The issue with this team is quite simple. It's identity. The team make up is just off. Last season, they had 10 out 12 (not gabby or richards) forwards that played the same way. Speed, size and some skill. They were good defensively, great on the forecheck and wore down their opponents.

This year's team has top 2 lines can't really play that style consistently without getting banged up. And the bottom two lines really lack speed and skill to be effective at that style. Separately, the D is a mess too, but fixable.

So, what exactly is this team? What's the style that allows them to be effective? And where do they go from here?

The kids who have the best shot at making it next year... Will Lindberg, Fasth, Kreider, Thomas cure this identity crisis or make it worse? The one guy who could really help cure part of what ails this team is, ironically, Dylan Mcilrath. (and... also a true offensive minded D)

Bingo.

Really sad to say but it's the truth. We lacked an identity for years, found one the last 2 seasons or so, culminating in last year's team. A few months later and we're back to square one in that sense. Extremely frustrating.

Honestly can't say I blame management for this one either. Their off-season moves made sense, and no one could truly forsee the lackluster play of Richards and Gaborik coming.

We needed an elite scorer; we gave up some depth for it, but everyone has to agree that was a good/necessary trade. Prust, a huge part of that identity, got stupid money as a UFA. Feds was not re-signed, so that's 4 players lost right there. Throw in Gaborik and Richards underperfoming along with Kreider not being ready and boom, there's this season's issues.

Not re-signing Feds and not shoring up the blueline's bottom pairing are my only critiques of the off-season. Players just aren't performing to what was expected of them by both management and the fans.

Just frustration all around.

 

[smoneil]

Yes, and people seem to be confusing poor replacement of depth with the Nash trade being a bad move. You do the Nash trade 10/10 times. The problem here is the bottom six sucks, specifically the third line.

No, the problem is the team is playing like it doesn't give a **** whether they win or lose. If last year's team was embarrassed in a game, they would rattle off a winning streak to wash the stink of that embarrassment off of themselves. This year's Rangers? They don't even notice the stink.

Losing is an infection. In a way, I'm glad Kreider isn't up with the NHL team. This isn't the environment for him to develop in. When people tried to say this earlier in the year, I held off. I said it's too soon to say this. It isn't too soon anymore. Last year, everyone in favor of the Nash trade kept on saying that it would be "easy" to replace heart and character. They said that doesn't matter and skill is all that counts. I kept on pointing out that Nash has ALWAYS been a loser, and over and over again I pointed out that my biggest fear was that he would bring that comfort with losing to the Rangers' locker room. That's exactly what happened.

Where is Ryan Callahan? Some of this has to fall on his shoulders as well. Many of you said that we didn't need Dubi or AA because Cally would provide all the leadership we needed. Where is it? He's only scored 4 ES goals this season. He's putting up third line production while getting elite first line minutes. He disappears for games at a time. Yeah, when he's on his game, he's amazing. I'd never dispute that, and I love the kid when he's on his game. The problem is that he's so rarely on his game anymore.

What happened to Girardi? Boyle? Gaborik? Richards? (Staal has played great, and it shouldn't be up to kids like MDZ, Hags, or Stepan to lead the way). Where is their pride?

I was terrified that the trade of a big chunk of our home-grown core for a big-name, declining, perennial loser would turn this team into the pre-lockout Rangers. I didn't want to be right. Losing a few players from the middle lines shouldn't be a debilitating loss. The problem is that it's not JUST about subtracting a few good character guys. You've also added a very big bad influence to that still young locker room. Nash had a reputation for being lazy and apathetic in Columbus. He can be lazy and still put up numbers. The problem is when other players follow that lead.

 

[Callagraves]

No, the problem is the team is playing like it doesn't give a **** whether they win or lose. If last year's team was embarrassed in a game, they would rattle off a winning streak to wash the stink of that embarrassment off of themselves. This year's Rangers? They don't even notice the stink.

Losing is an infection. In a way, I'm glad Kreider isn't up with the NHL team. This isn't the environment for him to develop in. When people tried to say this earlier in the year, I held off. I said it's too soon to say this. It isn't too soon anymore. Last year, everyone in favor of the Nash trade kept on saying that it would be "easy" to replace heart and character. They said that doesn't matter and skill is all that counts. I kept on pointing out that Nash has ALWAYS been a loser, and over and over again I pointed out that my biggest fear was that he would bring that comfort with losing to the Rangers' locker room. That's exactly what happened.

Where is Ryan Callahan? Some of this has to fall on his shoulders as well. Many of you said that we didn't need Dubi or AA because Cally would provide all the leadership we needed. Where is it? He's only scored 4 ES goals this season. He's putting up third line production while getting elite first line minutes. He disappears for games at a time. Yeah, when he's on his game, he's amazing. I'd never dispute that, and I love the kid when he's on his game. The problem is that he's so rarely on his game anymore.

What happened to Girardi? Boyle? Gaborik? Richards? (Staal has played great, and it shouldn't be up to kids like MDZ, Hags, or Stepan to lead the way). Where is their pride?

I was terrified that the trade of a big chunk of our home-grown core for a big-name, declining, perennial loser would turn this team into the pre-lockout Rangers. I didn't want to be right. Losing a few players from the middle lines shouldn't be a debilitating loss. The problem is that it's not JUST about subtracting a few good character guys. You've also added a very big bad influence to that still young locker room. Nash had a reputation for being lazy and apathetic in Columbus. He can be lazy and still put up numbers. The problem is when other players follow that lead.

What are you talking about? He had a poor start to the season, but he's got 4 goals and 4 assists in the last 10 games. Cally's been great lately, and has more goals than anyone not named Rick Nash, who he's tied with.

 

[Thunderhead]

No, the problem is the team is playing like it doesn't give a **** whether they win or lose. If last year's team was embarrassed in a game, they would rattle off a winning streak to wash the stink of that embarrassment off of themselves. This year's Rangers? They don't even notice the stink.

Losing is an infection. In a way, I'm glad Kreider isn't up with the NHL team. This isn't the environment for him to develop in. When people tried to say this earlier in the year, I held off. I said it's too soon to say this. It isn't too soon anymore. Last year, everyone in favor of the Nash trade kept on saying that it would be "easy" to replace heart and character. They said that doesn't matter and skill is all that counts. I kept on pointing out that Nash has ALWAYS been a loser, and over and over again I pointed out that my biggest fear was that he would bring that comfort with losing to the Rangers' locker room. That's exactly what happened.

Where is Ryan Callahan? Some of this has to fall on his shoulders as well. Many of you said that we didn't need Dubi or AA because Cally would provide all the leadership we needed. Where is it? He's only scored 4 ES goals this season. He's putting up third line production while getting elite first line minutes. He disappears for games at a time. Yeah, when he's on his game, he's amazing. I'd never dispute that, and I love the kid when he's on his game. The problem is that he's so rarely on his game anymore.

What happened to Girardi? Boyle? Gaborik? Richards? (Staal has played great, and it shouldn't be up to kids like MDZ, Hags, or Stepan to lead the way). Where is their pride?

I was terrified that the trade of a big chunk of our home-grown core for a big-name, declining, perennial loser would turn this team into the pre-lockout Rangers. I didn't want to be right. Losing a few players from the middle lines shouldn't be a debilitating loss. The problem is that it's not JUST about subtracting a few good character guys. You've also added a very big bad influence to that still young locker room. Nash had a reputation for being lazy and apathetic in Columbus. He can be lazy and still put up numbers. The problem is when other players follow that lead.

You make some excellent points here. I wonder how many folks here regret the Nash trade. I am 50/50 on this.

 

[Doctyl]

No, the problem is the team is playing like it doesn't give a **** whether they win or lose. If last year's team was embarrassed in a game, they would rattle off a winning streak to wash the stink of that embarrassment off of themselves. This year's Rangers? They don't even notice the stink.

Losing is an infection. In a way, I'm glad Kreider isn't up with the NHL team. This isn't the environment for him to develop in. When people tried to say this earlier in the year, I held off. I said it's too soon to say this. It isn't too soon anymore. Last year, everyone in favor of the Nash trade kept on saying that it would be "easy" to replace heart and character. They said that doesn't matter and skill is all that counts. I kept on pointing out that Nash has ALWAYS been a loser, and over and over again I pointed out that my biggest fear was that he would bring that comfort with losing to the Rangers' locker room. That's exactly what happened.

Where is Ryan Callahan? Some of this has to fall on his shoulders as well. Many of you said that we didn't need Dubi or AA because Cally would provide all the leadership we needed. Where is it? He's only scored 4 ES goals this season. He's putting up third line production while getting elite first line minutes. He disappears for games at a time. Yeah, when he's on his game, he's amazing. I'd never dispute that, and I love the kid when he's on his game. The problem is that he's so rarely on his game anymore.

What happened to Girardi? Boyle? Gaborik? Richards? (Staal has played great, and it shouldn't be up to kids like MDZ, Hags, or Stepan to lead the way). Where is their pride?

I was terrified that the trade of a big chunk of our home-grown core for a big-name, declining, perennial loser would turn this team into the pre-lockout Rangers. I didn't want to be right. Losing a few players from the middle lines shouldn't be a debilitating loss. The problem is that it's not JUST about subtracting a few good character guys. You've also added a very big bad influence to that still young locker room. Nash had a reputation for being lazy and apathetic in Columbus. He can be lazy and still put up numbers. The problem is when other players follow that lead.

oh boy

how are you criticizing callahan. he got off to a slow start and has been great recently.

trading the irreplaceable dubinsky and the wildly consistent anisimov for a super star former 1st overall pick who is currently leading the team in every category is definitely what is causing this problem. nash has been amazing and so far has been our best player hands down.

 

[Leetch66]

Fire Torts and everybody WILL play better . PJ Stock got it right...they want Torts GONE ! If Sather does not fire him...then he should be fired ASAP before any further damage is done and he deals away some kids or picks at the T Deadline in an effort to save us short term while sinking us again for long term .

Nash and crew can right this ship...but it won't happen with Torts behind the bench . Say what you like...they have tuned him out .

 

[Ail]

Nash had a reputation for being lazy and apathetic in Columbus. He can be lazy and still put up numbers. The problem is when other players follow that lead.

He was so lazy they put him on Team Canada with a bunch of other lazy losers.

Come on, you are reaching. Whether or not you think that he had that reputation is one thing, it being true is another. Players get rumors started about them all the time by the media, fans, et al, to justify and explain poor play or wanting out of a franchise.

Nonsense.

 

[abev]

Fire Torts and everybody WILL play better . PJ Stock got it right...they want Torts GONE ! If Sather does not fire him...then he should be fired ASAP before any further damage is done and he deals away some kids or picks at the T Deadline in an effort to save us short term while sinking us again for long term .

Nash and crew can right this ship...but it won't happen with Torts behind the bench . Say what you like...they have tuned him out .

I was going to post something like this but stopped. There IS something going on with the team. Something preventing them from doing what they need to do to start winning. I am wondering if it's more based on spite than actual game plan.

 

[chosen]

Depth is the big problem with the team. Zero offense in the bottom 6.

Bottom 6 is not where you look for goals. The supposed point-getters aren't getting points.

 

[Dorado*]

Fire Torts and everybody WILL play better . PJ Stock got it right...they want Torts GONE ! If Sather does not fire him...then he should be fired ASAP before any further damage is done and he deals away some kids or picks at the T Deadline in an effort to save us short term while sinking us again for long term .

Nash and crew can right this ship...but it won't happen with Torts behind the bench . Say what you like...they have tuned him out .

This ^ . My personal agenda aside it certainly appears that they have tuned him out . How else do you explain not showing up on this road trip at all .

 

[alkurtz]

There is another factor at work here: the relative parity that exists in the league. There is just not that much difference talent-wise (with a few exceptions) between the top and bottom of the league. It allows Montreal to go from last to first without changing much of their roster. It allows the Rangers to go from first to possibly not making the playoffs.

Each season takes on a life of its own with teams rising or sinking seemingly for no apparent reason. Winning breeds winning and becomes contagious. Losing leads to more losing. Fans are left scratching their heads in bewilderment.

As for the Rangers, it is hard to fault what they have done. They build a young core and tried to supplement it with high end talent that would get them over the top: that is the classic way to build a championship team in most sports. It hasn't worked out. Who could have foreseen that Brad Richards would age so quickly (no, I don't think it is the system, his conditioning, or his motivation). Perhaps the same thing is happening to Gaborik (who, until the last game or two, got a pass from me as far as his performance). Aging is athletes is strange and cannot be predicted. Some guys seem to be able to perform at a high level well into their 30s, others can't. We seem to be on a negative streak with big time free agents who lose it over 30. Does that mean you stop signing them? Perhaps.

I am not a Torts fan: never was. I much prefer a Renney type coach. But I sometimes think that teams fire coaches to quickly, particularly those who have had success. As much as I don't like him, I'm not ready to fire him. I don't think he has lost the players and don't think they have stopped listening to him. Yet. But there is a danger of that happening soon. I think he is as frustrated as the rest of us.

From a talent point of view, the thing that stands out to me is our lack of speed, especially at center. Other teams seem to have gears that we lack. Richards is slow. Stepan, for all he brings to the table and all he does well, is slow. Boyle is beyond slow. JTM is not really ready to play regularly at center yet.

If the Rangers miss the playoffs (part of me still is hoping for an LA Kings kind of season: underachieve, just barely make it into the playoffs, go on a run, win it all) they will come to a turning point that will influence the next few years.

Do they give this group (including Torts) one more year, writing off this year as just one of those years (remember 1992-1993)?

Or does management decide that this is not working and decide to start over? That would include buying out BR, attempting to trade Gaborik, and contemplating plugging Kreider, Miller, Hrvik, Thomas, McIlrath, Fasth, Lindberg, et al, into the lineup next year.

These next two days and game are crucial. Lose to the Canes and Devs and things will certainly get interesting around here.

But hey, my Ranger memories go back to 1958. Think of all the pain and grief I've suffered (but as all long time Ranger fans say, at least I have 1994, and that might have "to last a lifetime"). Wow, I hope not.

 

[*Bob Richards*]

Reading through this thread again, I have to say that I'm glad I'm not the only person who straight just doesn't know how to fix this team. I've got no more explanations or excuses.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

I was going to post something like this but stopped. There IS something going on with the team. Something preventing them from doing what they need to do to start winning. I am wondering if it's more based on spite than actual game plan.

That is a definite possibility.

Maybe they aren't railing against Torts...maybe there's someone else in the room, in management, or even in ownership that caused some trouble.

Or maybe this team drastically overachieved last year, and are now slightly underachieving.

Alkurtz also makes a great point about parity. It doesn't take much these days to rise or fall in the league. Losing Sauer long term and now Staal really hurts when there really isn't decent replacement on the farm. Losing Markov last season pretty much sent Montreal down to the bottom of the heap...and that was one player.

 

[Thunderhead]

If this is mutiny, who's the leader ?

 

[*Bob Richards*]

If this is mutiny, who's the leader ?

It has to be the least suspecting person. Someone whose career banks on Torts. No one would ever see it coming. There can only be one....

 

[Thunderhead]

I see...........

 

[Clowes Line]

My eyes! Bickel how could you do this!?

You were like a son to me...

 

[miss2leetch]

Torts system is killing this team. What first roud picks and young players would want to play on Tort's? Come to Ny and play for the most boring team in the NHL, and sit in the doghouse for several years. Torts has to go so that the players we have can have a chance to open up a bit.

 

[Blueshirt Special]

We're good at blocking shots though!

Talk about "being a cone"...

I've hated this idea from the start and it has worn the team out.

Now an elite player like Nash is going to risk injury by blocking a shot? This is just stupid.

Let's just play hockey and let our goal tender do his job. I'm OK with that.

 

[Thunderhead]

My eyes! Bickel how could you do this!?

You were like a son to me...

edit:
wrong thread, sorry.