Man, I haven’t banned someone in a while… but if this is truly your fault… @will1066 what’d ya think?
Post-Game Talk: Rangers @ Oilers - Sather's revenge
- Thread starter mike14
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Man, I haven’t banned someone in a while… but if this is truly your fault… @will1066 what’d ya think?
Except we've seen this exact story line several years in a row. They've fixed nothing. Who cares if they fizzle out in yet another ECF.
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Gordon Bombay
HFNYR Head Coach
- Oct 13, 2006
- 2,623
- 3,172
I felt that way forever until they finally tricked me last year. As others have said, these guys do not get another coach.
I mean, we are living the Lundqvist era again to the T. And I know you guys were all mostly right here on HF for that because I was too, I just lost my login at some point. Like, we all know how this goes. Why are we pretending it’s different this time? It’s exactly the same. It’s like the opening scene of 22 Jump Street when the police chief is breaking the 4th wall and telling the audience it’s exactly like last time.
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
To offer a counterpoint, the generational failure being a result of just not being very good really tracks.
Kreider and Zibanejad are going to be at the top of the franchise's all-time leaderboard in multiple categories.
If he played for Pittsburgh, Kreider would have trouble cracking the top 4 in goals scored.
They hitched their wagon to another B+ group of core players.
It's 2024. What teams are riding buses and getting dressed on wood benches?
Maliks PlusMinus
Registered User
Well, for much of the Lundqvist era we had a lot of gritty hard working forwards. We cycled the puck a lot and had so many forwards who gave absolutely everything every night. Even the bad ones.
This team has more skill and talent by far than a lot of the King’s teams.
It amounts to the same thing in terms of netminding reliance a lot, but these guys can make me more angry just cos I felt those other guys were playing at their peak
That’s somewhat true, sure. Largely it was just Callahan and Dubinsky and Girardi. Nash was a massive under performer aside from a couple years, just like Zib. Gaborik was a less effective Panarin. Richards. Gomez. Brassard had his flash in the pan. Guys like Step and Zucc worked hard but it wasn’t really all that different. Callahan and Dubinsky were true heart and soul types that affected the rest of the team. I don’t entirely disagree… not by a long shot. But it’s like saying the walls were a different color back then. The house was still the same. Panarin is probably the first offensive stud to ever come here and genuinely be a stud. Otherwise, it’s very much the same. Offensive players under achieving, team doesn’t have a backbone and we rely on the best goalie in the league. We may have played harder back then but I specifically remember outrage over how this team wouldn’t stand up for each other and guys like Girardi just gently escorted guys like Carcillo from our crease when they ran over Hank.
Maliks PlusMinus
Registered User
This is very true we were weak in front of the net far too often. Klein was good for that, but most of the D through those years were lacking in physicality in front.
On the flip side we have Norris Fox, Vezina Shesterkin and Hartemi candidate Panarin. If we’re gonna say talent is the issue, I’ve seen teams do more with less. 1OA Laf earned himself a fat extension. Kreider hit 50 goals.
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
There's five guys on Florida who would be our best forward besides Panarin. Talent is an issue. Having a couple of token really good players doesn't change that.
Jaromir Jagr
Registered User
Agree with everything you said. But I will say the one major difference is that we are living in an era of even worse league-wide parity driven by over zealous expansion & a still relatively strict salary cap compared to other leagues. Shit teams will win far more frequently than in the past.
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
That really only applies to Panarin in the playoffs.
Kreider was always limited and people were saying "don't sign Zibanejad to a massive contract" years ago.
They're not that good. They're just not that good.
Hyperbole. Barkov, Tkachuk and Reinhart.
Bennett and Verhaege are not “better” than Kreider, Zib, Trochek, Laf. Maybe over a 20 game sample size this year, but up to this day, in their careers? You’d have a very tough time arguing that case. They also don’t have a Fox.
They also had Lomberg, Cousins, Rodrigues, Luosterainen, Gadjovich, Okposo, our Tarasenko scraps etc. not exactly supreme depth. They just play with a lot more urgency.
Yeah and four of them were acquired through trades. It's possible to build a good team through good management.
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
Ok, maybe not Bennett.
Verhaeghe would be our second best forward at 5v5 and he's closer to Panarin than the guy in third.
You're lying to yourself when you say the difference is urgency. Their roster is better than ours at every spot in the lineup except for 1D and 1LW.
I don't know what your aversion is to admitting the team isn't very good.
I feel like I’m one of the loudest voices saying the team isn’t very good and we should stop pointing to the ECF run as an excuse to not ship guys out, because “we’re contenders” and “this is our window”.
I’m also not looking at Florida’s forward depth with tremendous envy. Yes, they have a very good top 3-4 and some good middle pieces. They’re top 4 edge ours out and the middle and bottom of the lineups are a wash at best. Their depth isn’t some beacon to aspire to. Our depth, especially during last year’s ECF realistically was better. We just play like ass. Because it’s in the NYR DNA.
Yes, our team isn’t very good. But it also truly does not feel like it’s entirely down to the players. By which, I mean that if Minnesota and NYR swapped rosters but maintained their culture and infrastructure, the Minnesota roster in NY jerseys would not be doing as well as the Minnesota Wild are. The country club BS is real. That’s my opinion.
But honestly, it’s moot to focus on Florida specifically. I never brought them up. There are plenty of teams that manage to do more with less and we SHOULD be better than what the sum of our parts has resulted in. I don’t see the point in arguing that moving Panarin at 50% would be a long term positive. Same with Kreider. Zib. Trouba. Lindy. It’s time to start letting heads roll. Bread, not because he’s been bad, but because teams would actually pay a price that might genuinely HELP our future if we retained and moved him while teams would get 2 playoff runs out of him. Whether you think it’s urgency or the talent level, it seems we agree this group isn’t going to get it done. If we agree it isn’t going to happen, why are we splitting hairs over who can GTFO? Keep Fox, Shesty, Schneider, Laf and everyone else is available. Shit, as far as I'm concerned everyone is available, period. The entire deck of cards needs to be changed.
- Jan 18, 2012
- 34,492
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or maybe it's coaching and environment?
Bennett, Vaerhage, Reinhart all took off in Florida. You would have said they sucked on their previous teams and would want no part of them.
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
Well if you don't want to focus on Florida what about New Jersey?
Hischier would be our best center since Messier, and they have a center much, much better than he is. And they're still not as good as Florida!
Talent is the be all, end all. We don't have enough of it. The shitty Lundqvist teams (that got by on Lundqvist) and explosion of league scoring the last five years have distorted what people think a talented team is.
I would argue this team, just in terms of wins, squeezes out way more than they should on paper.
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
The only one that's true for is Reinhart, who played in Buffalo where everyone sucks.
Everyone wanted Bennett and there was a huge push for him when he was traded. Verhaeghe was putting up elite underlying numbers back when he was essentially a backup for Tampa.
There might be some truth to this, but the biggest offenders are veterans who were what they were coming into the season.
grachevsceiling
Registered User
- Jul 2, 2024
- 50
- 97
I think an addendum to this is that people are underestimating the effect that Panarin has had on Trocheck and Laf. I like both of the latter but they’re not really guys that can dominate/drive a line in the same way. I think we’ve seen some games where Panarin has looked dangerous and Laf and Tro have looked much more pedestrian than last year. This is mostly eye test though, not sure if the stats bear that out.
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
Laf is getting just a tad bit overrated imo. He's very good and has a ton of potential, but he hasn't cemented himself yet in the type of conversations where you say "they don't have anyone as good as Laf." Almost everyone does, as of right now.
This board loves gassing up their own players and then playing the victim when those players aren't what they told themselves they are.
Fitzy
Very Stable Genius
- Jan 29, 2009
- 35,764
- 23,077
The team needs improvements with every current cylinder churning.
That we don’t have that at present makes me, if anything, even more hesitant to pay more assets for an upgrade.
If we hit March and Mika is at a PPG, Chytil is healthy and playing well, and Miller has regained his old form, I’d be happy to talk about a “final piece” but with where they’re at presently I’d just let it ride rather than make an Eric Staal trade
That we don’t have that at present makes me, if anything, even more hesitant to pay more assets for an upgrade.
If we hit March and Mika is at a PPG, Chytil is healthy and playing well, and Miller has regained his old form, I’d be happy to talk about a “final piece” but with where they’re at presently I’d just let it ride rather than make an Eric Staal trade
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
I literally called this team a retread of the Lundqvist era. I never said we were a super talented team. I’ve been beating the drum for stripping it to the nails.
At the same time, Hischier’s top two seasons are 80 and 67 points. Mika has has 72, 74, 75, 81, 91 and 50 in 56. Again, hyperbole. Mika TODAY may have regressed to the point that Hischier is passing him (I f***ing love Hischier, by the way) but what is the excuse for the last 3-4 years? Because it’s been the same roster for 5+ years. This isn’t just a convo about the 24-25 Rangers, it’s a conversation about THIS VERSION of the Rangers, which has been intact for quite some time. So when Mika HADN’T regressed so badly yet and was a 90 point center who also PK’d, what was the excuse? He had Fox, and Panarin, and Shesterkin and 50 goal Kreider. What was the excuse 3 years ago?
It’s time to start packing bags. Mika, Trouba, Panarin and maybe Kreider should all be gone. Trochek could go too but can stay as an affordable veteran so we don’t have absolutely zero center depth. Kreider can stay because he’s got a legacy at this point. None of the veterans deserve to run it back one more time. None. And I don’t believe it’s entirely down to lack of talent.
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