OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Dull days of July

[DJ Spinoza]

Nightengale is about as clown level as you can be, so I would take him saying that as cautiously good news though more likely just irrelevant.

The Priester trade is probably not indicative of much of anything, as it's a swap that makes decent sense on both sides. Red Sox fans seems somewhat split on it. I think they viewed Yorke as extra depth, but depth that could possible help them get a better pitcher than a guy who has struggled like Priester.

Murray's live show is starting in a couple of minutes, so hopefully he'll have something to say about the Pirates (he usually does, if only because it seems like tons of Pirates fans subscribe to his discord).

 

[TooManyHumans]

Whatever. It was obvious all along that they wouldn't be making moves to improve this year's team. They are always more concerned with the future than with the present. Really wish I would look like a fool on this by the time the trade deadline passes, but I do not expect it.

 

[DaveG]

Don't hate this at all. Still would like to see them pick up some OF help for the immediate and long term but I think when Chisholm went to the f***ing pinstripes that idea went out the window. Yorke might be able to stick in one of the corner spots considering how bad we are there outside of Reynolds but CF is still a glaring hole.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Pretty much what we expected, they're looking to add a bat or two with OF being the primary position they're looking at.

I'm expecting a Lane Thomas type of addition to shore up the RF position for this year and next year, while CF is untouched for now.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

According to Murray, multiple other teams were talking to us about Priester. He said that he wasn't surprised we got Yorke as we have eyed him for a while, but also seemed surprised Priester was included because he said he "thought he might be traded for another player".

He remained pretty firm in saying that we will add another bat.

He also said he thinks we will trade Perez if we can, but he doesn't think there will be a market for him.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Another name that I have seen connected to the Pirates, I think Yastrzemski could be another target worth looking at to fill the RF spot. He is in the same boat as Thomas in that he's only cost controlled through next year, but he hits lefties and righties equally as well and is a pretty good defender in RF. He's at a 119 OPS+ this year and has a career 115 OPS+.

I think Thomas is more likely because he'd be cheaper, but Yaz is a guy I hadn't really put much thought into that I could also see making sense.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

Murray said that he's heard nothing is close for the Giants and that any deal with them might not happen til tomorrow. He also said that Thomas is likely to stay because Washington values him as an everyday player and inquiring teams value him as a platoon player.

He said as of now, he thinks Robert will stay. I don't believe he mentioned Rooker or the A's at all.

The White Sox seem like big wild cards right now. People are somewhat split on whether Crochet moves or not, with speculation being that he might make more sense in the offseason if he is basically not going to pitch in the postseason. I think that if the White Sox trade him, they should also trade Robert, but who knows what they are going to do. There's no real reason they can't just build around both of those guys.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

Oh yeah, one other thing from Murray is that the Pirates weren't really close for Chisholm. He didn't elaborate much, so hard to know exactly what that meant, but for the record. I do tend to trust his reporting, he seems about as plugged in as anybody else in baseball and doesn't really make mistakes or leak wild and untrue things etc.

Regardless of how everything else plays out, IMO it's pretty important to take advantage of the seller's market. I've done a pretty hard reversal here and I'm sure there's a possibility that I will walk this back hypocritically if we see another exciting Skenes masterclass tonight, but if you can get a return somewhere in the ballpark of what Anaheim got for Estevez for Chapman, you basically have to do it.

Estevez has been better, but there's no question to me that Chapman has real leverage value when he's on, and there's a dearth of those options besides Tanner Scott and maybe Ercig from Oakland, but relievers who are pre-arb with tons of control years are really hard to estimate value on, IMO. It's also not a simple proposition to compare prospect return, and Chapman makes more money, but there's just undeniable opportunity and short of some shocking Rooker trade, we missed our shot with Jazz.

The place I've done the 180 on is that I think you pull the trigger if you get a prospect somewhere in Klassen's vicinity, though I also don't know that it needs to be a prospect. I think there's decent chance to get another young controllable bat for Chapman, and that ultimately that might just be the hand we're dealt.

In short, I'd see if Baltimore would send Stowers for him. Stowers is 26 and luxury depth for the Orioles. He might not hit enough to be an everyday player, but he's hit enough to earn an opportunity and steps right into a corner spot.

 

[TooManyHumans]

If we aren't serious about improving the team for this year (we aren't), then we might as well at least sell off the relievers.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Oh yeah, one other thing from Murray is that the Pirates weren't really close for Chisholm. He didn't elaborate much, so hard to know exactly what that meant, but for the record. I do tend to trust his reporting, he seems about as plugged in as anybody else in baseball and doesn't really make mistakes or leak wild and untrue things etc.

Regardless of how everything else plays out, IMO it's pretty important to take advantage of the seller's market. I've done a pretty hard reversal here and I'm sure there's a possibility that I will walk this back hypocritically if we see another exciting Skenes masterclass tonight, but if you can get a return somewhere in the ballpark of what Anaheim got for Estevez for Chapman, you basically have to do it.

I think the other thing to think of regarding trading Chapman is that the Pirates seemingly need to clear out money to be able to add any notable bats. They seem to want to do that with trading Perez, but if they can't get a deal that makes sense, I'd rather them trade Chapman to address the bats than keep Chapman but not have money to trade for a bat.

 

[Ulf5]

According to Murray, multiple other teams were talking to us about Priester. He said that he wasn't surprised we got Yorke as we have eyed him for a while, but also seemed surprised Priester was included because he said he "thought he might be traded for another player".

He remained pretty firm in saying that we will add another bat.

He also said he thinks we will trade Perez if we can, but he doesn't think there will be a market for him.

Was he surprised as in he thought Priester could return a better player with all the interest?

 

[Empoleon8771]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1818012188281348363

I understand that the Yankees traded for Chisholm to replace Torres at 2B after the year, but I still don't fully get trading for him just to play him at 3B.

 

[ChaosAgent]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1818012188281348363

I understand that the Yankees traded for Chisholm to replace Torres at 2B after the year, but I still don't fully get trading for him just to play him at 3B.

Maybe Jazz busts doing this, but I will still judge Henry Davis forever for being unable to play RF at a replacement level quickly.

I feel like if you aren't fat/slow, you should be able to pick up an OF glove in 2-3 days.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Was he surprised as in he thought Priester could return a better player with all the interest?

I had the impression that he thought Priester would go to Baltimore or traded for Ward.

I kinda prefer this guy. Certainly I prefer him to Priester. BC did good here.

I think another nice thing with Yorke is that he fits the prototype of what you want from a leadoff hitter, even with his mediocre speed. When McCutchen retires, you can replace him with a more power focused bat (which is what you should be targeting with a DH) and have Yorke as the new leadoff guy.

Granted it's a question of how it translates to the major leagues. Gonzales had a very similar walk rate to Yorke in the minors but is only walking 4% in the majors this year.

As an aside, I think Gonzales is really just improving his walk rate away from being a damn solid 2B. He has shown to have good 2B defense, good speed and has some pop. He also seems like he can hit for a decent ~.260 average. But that walk rate is just untenable, he needs to get on base more.

I think Gonzales should be like a .700 to .750 OPS guy with good speed and defense, but his horrid walk rate is going to prevent him from meeting that.

Gonzales hasn't hit a homer in a month seemingly. The league has punched back pretty hard on him, I think this break will do him some good.

I'm much higher on him than I was since early 2022 so this year was successful either way.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Gonzales hasn't hit a homer in a month seemingly. The league has punched back pretty hard on him, I think this break will do him some good.

I'm much higher on him than I was since early 2022 so this year was successful either way.

Gonzales has just been bad in the month in general, but walking more than 3% of his ABs would be a good way to lessen the bad stretches that every player goes through. He only has 3 walks in his last 89 PAs, it's an unacceptable level.

I'm not asking him to be walking 11.7% of his ABs like he was in the minors, but walking even at an average rate (20% Ks and 8% BBs) would raise his OBP from .293 to .332 this year. That's a huge impact on OPS overall and his performance in the minors suggests he should be able to do that.

In terms of his July performance, Gonzales finished with a very bad .214/.247/.286 slash line with 3 walks in 89 PAs. If he was walking at the same rate he did in the minors, he'd have either 7 or 8 more walks and his OPS in July would jump from .533 to .617. So it's still a bad month but it's "poor" rather than "horrendous".

 

[TimmyD]

So which one was it? The Pirates were a close 2nd for Chisolm or they weren’t ever that close?

 

[DJ Spinoza]

Was he surprised as in he thought Priester could return a better player with all the interest?

It wasn't clear but it just seemed like he had heard Priester's name in conjunction with a trade about a specific player. He didn't really suggest whether that player was better or worse than Yorke.

I am totally speculating here, but I don't think it's that crazy to wonder if Priester could have been in play for a guy like Taylor Ward. Personally, I think I prefer the upside and control of Yorke as a potential everyday corner OF over Ward.

To me, the trade really seems like a classic one that fits well for both teams. Red Sox get a controllable pitcher who they will try to tweak to get more out of / at least some consistency as a backend innings eater, and Pirates get a player who has some true upside with the bat but doesn't add much in terms of other tools. The margin is somewhat thin for Yorke to become a solid .275 hitter who contributes 15-20 HRs, but the margin for Priester to be more than an up/down depth starter is about the same.

 

[MrBrightside]

Assume it's a bullpen game now. Gotta get this one. Gotta.

 

[BusinessGoose]

So which one was it? The Pirates were a close 2nd for Chisolm or they weren’t ever that close?

Yankees









Everyone else
Pirates

... See we were CLOSE to second.... Which was way far aways

Assistant to the General Manager

 

[TimmyD]

Yankees









Everyone else
Pirates

... See we were CLOSE to second.... Which was way far aways

Assistant to the General Manager

Lol. Also Lane Thomas to the Guardians… He was supposed to be the other guy the Pirates were going to get because they are super duper 100% going to acquire two bats to help the major league roster by 6:00 pm tomorrow night. Totally going to do that because that has always been the plan according to them… and they totally wouldn’t lie to us

 

[MrBrightside]

Two things remain equally true:

1. This team adding one marginal OF bat is not a real contender and probably shouldn't add at the expense of any significant resources.

2. This ownership/management group remains completely unserious about competing and winning and is amazingly content to just punt yet another season.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Gonzales has just been bad in the month in general, but walking more than 3% of his ABs would be a good way to lessen the bad stretches that every player goes through. He only has 3 walks in his last 89 PAs, it's an unacceptable level.

I'm not asking him to be walking 11.7% of his ABs like he was in the minors, but walking even at an average rate (20% Ks and 8% BBs) would raise his OBP from .293 to .332 this year. That's a huge impact on OPS overall and his performance in the minors suggests he should be able to do that.

In terms of his July performance, Gonzales finished with a very bad .214/.247/.286 slash line with 3 walks in 89 PAs. If he was walking at the same rate he did in the minors, he'd have either 7 or 8 more walks and his OPS in July would jump from .533 to .617. So it's still a bad month but it's "poor" rather than "horrendous".

I hear you but I think he has made a concerted effort to hack away. The anti-Suwinski approach if you will. The issue is he isn't making as good of contact as early on, and he is missing the ball more often.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Lol. Also Lane Thomas to the Guardians… He was supposed to be the other guy the Pirates were going to get because they are super duper 100% going to acquire two bats to help the major league roster by 6:00 pm tomorrow night. Totally going to do that because that has always been the plan according to them… and they totally wouldn’t lie to us

I will say, I'm getting nervous that we will see nothing in the next 24 hours.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Lol. Also Lane Thomas to the Guardians… He was supposed to be the other guy the Pirates were going to get because they are super duper 100% going to acquire two bats to help the major league roster by 6:00 pm tomorrow night. Totally going to do that because that has always been the plan according to them… and they totally wouldn’t lie to us

https://x.com/i/web/status/1818060756203577850

Are you seriously mad that the Pirates didn't pay this price? I would have liked Thomas if he was cheap, but 3 prospects (and one top-10 prospect) for him is craziness.

The equivalent package to what the Guardians gave up is Solometo, Blanco Jr and Peguero. That's an absolutely insane overpayment from Cleveland.

 

[ChaosAgent]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1818060756203577850

Are you seriously mad that the Pirates didn't pay this price? I would have liked Thomas if he was cheap, but 3 prospects (and one top-10 prospect) for him is craziness.

The equivalent package to what the Guardians gave up is Solometo, Blanco Jr and Peguero. That's an absolutely insane overpayment from Cleveland.

Eh is it though? These mid level prospects are fungible pieces to be thrown around. The Pirates system is pretty bad once you get past the first 4 guys.