OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Dull days of July

Ryder71

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Nov 24, 2017
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De La Cruz had a good first game.
But Cruz ruined any chance we had!

And he was so thorough at it also, not one error, nope, not two errors, gimme three jimmy!

Three errors by ONE player over a three inning span. THAT'S actually hard to do.

I don't think I've ever seen that before!

Yet, he made it look so easy!
 

DJ Spinoza

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Aug 7, 2003
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Seems to me like rooting against the Pirates would be more enjoyable on some other NL Central team discussion board, but what do I know...


In any event, I think the other big takeaway in the moment tonight is that we couldn't really add on after that big inning. No one was able to put one in the seats, and ultimately Dubon was able to put a great swing on a ball. Cruz absolutely deserves a ton of blame, but sometimes that's baseball. We still could have won despite his errors, and we still could have come back to bail Holderman out.

We didn't, but over and over again, we've seen this team show huge heart and get back up from the mat. It looked like a surefire sweep in Arizona, but we scraped out a win due to some good luck. Then this series looked like the kind that you just hope to again scratch one game out and regroup.

You need to have this kind of stuff shake out this way in the middle of a successful stretch run. We didn't play our best baseball and escaped with a .500 road trip. That's the huge thing. Nothing that happened today really changes the outlook for what we need in the two weeks or so, which is something like 5-4 vs. the wild card opponents (6-3 would be gangbusters good), or maybe 6-6 overall. The Dodgers have really only been so-so without Betts and in the last 6 weeks, so hopefully we don't catch them when they are turning into an unstoppable force again.

If anybody could snap their fingers right now and repeat a 7-5 stretch in these next 12 games, they'd instantly do it. It's not easy to distance yourself from an ugly game so quickly, but that's how I'm walking away tonight.
 
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Ryder71

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Nov 24, 2017
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If anybody could snap their fingers right now and repeat a 7-5 stretch in these next 12 games, they'd instantly do it. It's not easy to distance yourself from an ugly game so quickly, but that's how I'm walking away tonight.
Wish Cruz would take a long walk off a short pier!
 

DJ Spinoza

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Aug 7, 2003
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Wish Cruz would take a long walk off a short pier!
Chill man, he had a bad series but him shaking it off and getting back to the momentum he had right before this is crucial for any kind of success we are going to have in August and September.

I saw a good and measured take on twitter that the egregious OF error is probably a product of this being his first series at Minute Maid, which is significantly different than PNC in left field. In PNC, Reynolds' range leads to him not getting to those weird balls in that part of left field, which is where Cruz's 80-grade athleticism plays well.

He needs to have better awareness, but the truisms about baseball overcome all of this noise. You cannot get irrationally hung up on one moment or one game.
 

Ugene Magic

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Oct 17, 2008
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But Cruz ruined any chance we had!

And he was so thorough at it also, not one error, nope, not two errors, gimme three jimmy!

Three errors by ONE player over a three inning span. THAT'S actually hard to do.

I don't think I've ever seen that before!

Yet, he made it look so easy!
Totally different Cruz. You are having one of your elderly meltdowns.

Not Oneil Cruz, but Ryan De La Cruz.
 

Ryder71

Registered User
Nov 24, 2017
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Chill man, he had a bad series but him shaking it off and getting back to the momentum he had right before this is crucial for any kind of success we are going to have in August and September.

I saw a good and measured take on twitter that the egregious OF error is probably a product of this being his first series at Minute Maid, which is significantly different than PNC in left field. In PNC, Reynolds' range leads to him not getting to those weird balls in that part of left field, which is where Cruz's 80-grade athleticism plays well.

He needs to have better awareness, but the truisms about baseball overcome all of this noise. You cannot get irrationally hung up on one moment or one game.
Except that one moment or one game can be the difference between making the post season and not. And for the record I don't think they'll make it, but games such as this and ineptitude to this degree is unacceptable.

Totally different Cruz. You are having one of your elderly meltdowns.

Not Oneil Cruz, but Ryan De La Cruz.
I'm not that old sparky, my point was that Cruz> De la Cruz as far as determining the outcome of this game.
 

DJ Spinoza

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Except that one moment or one game can be the difference between making the post season and not. And for the record I don't think they'll make it, but games such as this and ineptitude to this degree is unacceptable.
It is unacceptable and any one moment or game can be all the difference, for sure, but with the latter you then get in the business of picking and choosing which moment or game based only on subjective feel. There's ultimately no rhyme or reason why any one bad moment should count more than others.

I think that the stretch of bad play earlier in the season against Oakland, LA, and Colorado is going to be really significant if we fall short, because there were at least 2 more wins to be had there, and probably more for a good team. But this is a very mediocre team, which is why we are in a dog fight with a bunch of other mediocre teams and moments like tonight get amplified and feel bad.

My point is only that the mission was accomplished on the road trip, even though there was a lot of bad play (really more like especially, it could have easily been a 1-5 or 0-6 trip). The one thing this team has really done all season is be able to gut through bad games and blown games in order to bounce back and hold serve.

Personally, I was 100% ready to give up on Monday night, and the result of the road trip is that we are in basically perfect condition. I would have settled for 2-4 on the road trip. We had 4-2 in our grasp perhaps and let it slip away, but it's also difficult to write the counterfactual script with any accuracy.

Let's say Cruz doesn't screw up and Reynolds makes the catch. Maybe the domino effect is that we try to squeeze 6 innings out of Woodford and then there's traffic on the bases and a huge collapse in the 6th inning. Maybe Beeks gets a fresh inning but faces someone other than Yordan first and gets rocked in his debut.

Cruz directly contributed to losing this game, but even for this game, there's other ways that it could have gone down. If Holderman executes, we could win anyways. We had runners on the bases and a chance to tie it or take the lead with one hit.

A 4-2 trip would have been a dream, but still wouldn't really matter with what's on the slate. We just wrapped up the most important 12 games of the season with a good 7-5 stretch. Now that is wiped and we have a new 12 most important games of the season. If we go 7-5 again, it's very likely that we will hold one of the 3 WC spots at the end of it, but either way, you will probably be able to repeat the same mantra about important games. That will still be a set of competent/good teams in Seattle, Texas, and then NL Central rivals.

But for now, we did well to get halfway through a real gauntlet having won 7 of 12. We're going to need to push back against the Diamondbacks and win that series this weekend, but these 24 games are definitely the most difficult that were on the schedule, so to start 7-5 is great. 14-10 would launch you into a pole position headed into mid-August, when things really get crucial. 5-7 in the upcoming stretch would still be palatable, but I look at it like we need to start 2-1, and then find a way not to go only 3-6 in the remaining 3 series.

6-6 would be perfectly fine and still potentially give us a WC spot to cling to as we start the stretch run. The Diamondbacks actually have a very hard schedule the rest of the way, whereas the Padres have a lot easier of one, so the games vs. Arizona are huge for asserting ourselves against them. St. Louis also has a pretty tough remaining schedule. Ours gets somewhat lighter after these next 12 games, though the 6 games vs two pretty similar teams in Seattle and KC are going to loom pretty large.

But that and this very long post is getting way ahead of myself. My fundamental point is only that as frustrating as tonight's game was, we got some excellent play and some excellent luck after the break to end up in the position that we're in.
 

BusinessGoose

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How many ABs and how many RBIs?... How many SOs and what was his fielding percentage?

Hayes has been frustrating.
I dunno XBH for a guy not really known for power and ignoring possible other contributions seems like a cherry picked stat to make a Twitter tantrum post with... Oh...

Edit: 94AB 24H 11R 4RBI *one 2B* 4SB .255BA

Going over 250 in the month is adequate. Compliant: Denied
 
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BusinessGoose

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UH OH SPAGHETTIOS @AndrewFilliponi @OppositeOfBrightside

Screenshot_20240801_101030_Chrome.jpg
 
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BusinessGoose

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It's not surprising that Filliponi is wrong but I don't know that having one double in an entire month defeats the actual point.
I believe it does when that's his single line item in the tweet.

If youre gonna try to be taking shots, crossing your arms, and leaning back in your chair with a smug tone... You're shit better be on point.

Cause he ain't saying hayes needs more. He's saying he got none.

I can't take you seriously when your base fact, on your one hot-take, is 100% false.

There's lots of discussion available about underperforming Pirates. But be correct.

We can be wrong here. I'm nearly always wrong with my data or takes. But if you wanna be cool guy "journalist" online... You have a higher bar to clear.
 

DJ Spinoza

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Aug 7, 2003
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I had to go all the way back to the previous locked thread for this writeup. Almost slipped my mind to stay on track given all the hubbub with the draft and the layoff. I made a mistake here in not counting the 4th game of the Mets series.

Starting record: 40-43
Record over stretch: 8-5
Ending record: 48-48


We'll take an 8-5 stretch any day of the week, even if the path we took to get there was a bit frustrating. We dropped a winnable Cardinals series thanks to a poor Keller showing and blowing a Martin Perez masterclass. Then we split a winnable Mets series. But we battled tough on the road to a 5-1 finish with an improbable series victory vs the Brewers and handling business against a fully checked out White Sox team.

From a long view, there's no way to complain, but you can just feel the same issues rearing their head every little bit. Ultimately I think the truth is that we are still on a razor's edge and the season could really go in either direction, which is fitting for such a consistently mediocre team. A lot of people keep pointing at the solid record since Skenes has been promoted, and it's definitely the case that if we maintain that type of pace, we have a very good chance at a wild card berth.

My opinion is that the mediocrity and missed opportunities sort of cut both ways. Mediocrity has helped us stay within striking distance of a really exciting run, as those who might point to Arizona's sub-20% playoff odds last August can point out. We can talk ourselves blue in the face about any frustrating thing that we want to nitpick, but the fundamental reality is that if you are close enough to the playoffs at this time of the year (and especially in 3-4 more weeks), you are in the hunt no matter what. I also think that the feeling of missed opportunity lies equally as much with how many other truly mediocre teams are kicking around, which is something that helps maintain the crazy parity for most every team.

Right now, the White Sox, Marlins, and maybe the Rockies, A's, and Angels are the bottom barrel teams, but the latter three can all grind out wins occasionally. I think it's mainly the Phillies who are the major threat this year, though they scuffled slightly in the last 10 or so games before the break (but winning every single series is hardly sustainable).

Two more things: 1) we are about to truly enter into the gauntlet of the season. Phillies will be tough, then there are 6 games vs a Diamondbacks team in short order, along with Cardinals, Astros, Padresx2, Mariners, and maybe Dodgers with Mookie back. That's the next month, and surviving that with a .500 record still in tact will be tough. I think we'll look back at being swept by the A's and losing a series to the Angels with some real grimacing, as picking up even 3 wins from those 5 losses will feel huge in the coming weeks.

2) The time to take some kind of risk is now. Not only are we in a position to make some kind of run this year, but 2025 isn't guaranteed, even if logically it seems like the window will be more open for us then. The juggernaut teams all have some pretty major weaknesses besides maybe the Phillies. It's hard to feel total confidence that both Skenes and Jones would be capable of a postseason run (and Jones to have the form he showed early on), but the opportunity might be as good now as it will be for several years. And more to the point, even banking on a window that is more open in 2025 requires some investment now. There's no solution to the CF problem in the offseason. Our system is good enough to make a trade and keep producing arms.

Looking ahead: 3 vs. PHI, 3 vs. STL (6 home) + 3 vs. ARI, 3 vs. HOU (6 road)
As I said above, this is the start of a pretty serious month-long gauntlet, so it's put up or shut up time. The Phillies series does not look amazing on paper but as IE said, scratching 2 out of 3, even in ugly fashion, would be enormous in terms of giving us some momentum out of the gate. Assuming Keller isn't hurt or something, having Skenes and Keller vs. St. Louis makes that a "must win" series.

I think we need 7-5 in this stretch. That's enough to plant a flag and really put the management group under a microscope for how they will complement this team at the deadline, which actually falls on game 2 of the Astros series.

6-6 would be plenty survivable, as I don't think the series that follows is quite as tough, though the Padres can be a buzzsaw if they are firing on all cylinders. 5-7 is still maybe enough to hold serve, but it would feel like immediately surrendering that .500 plateau we couldn't get to for so long.

So much feels like it hinges on this Phillies series, because if you open up with a series win, then you have Skenes or Keller going on Monday in all likelihood. I'll close with this: Perez has basically been a tale of two pitchers this season. He either gives you a quality start and stifles the other team to a run or two, or he gets blown up and gives 4-5 before the 5th inning is over and he's out of the game. If he turns in the latter performance tonight against the Phillies, it's probably more like 7-8 and an enormous blow. We do have an off day Thursday before the road trip, but there's still some pressure on him to get into or through the 6th inning to keep the bullpen in good shape for this big stretch.

Outside of basically one start (besides the first one of the year), Nola is pretty much a quality start machine on an average day and pitching into the 7th or 8th on a good day. That means there's almost no margin for error in terms of trying to win a 2-1 or 3-2 type of game. I'll go out on a stupid limb here and make a ridiculous (and ridiculously early) wager: we somehow find a way to turn this improbably matchup into a win, then we make the playoffs. We don't, and it will remain the season of what ifs, as we flounder to something in the mid-to-late 70s win total.
Unsurprisingly had to go back quite a ways for this one. I've mostly said my piece with a couple of long posts last night, so I'll try to keep this recap as brief as possible and then enjoy the off day while we wait for a massive series this weekend.

Starting record: 48-48
Record over stretch: 7-5
Ending record: 55-53


I'm pretty content with my preview from last time. I thought we needed 7-5 and we managed to get 7-5. We ended on a sour note after wasting an opportunity for 8-4 and a sweep of the Astros to propel momentum into the new "most important games of the year", but I don't think we need to let that drag us down too much.

Getting out of Houston with a series win while having Falter's first start back and a YOLO spot start as the rotation gets resettled is pretty great. And perhaps even better, Falter showed signs that he might be reliable down the stretch. This is getting ahead of myself, but if you can depend more and more on him and Ortiz, that's a pretty big x-factor to the equation, which is effectively that we need to win all the games that Skenes and Keller start. Both of them being dependable could alleviate some of the pressure when we inevitably don't win one of Skenes/Keller's games, and provide the possibility for a nice little run. It lets Marco be a hopeful innings eater as much as possible, and maybe we can get creative by pushing Burrows or Ashcraft up for a two-headed monster type start once or twice.

The last thing I'll say by way of recap is that I think it's not an overstatement to say that pulling out/being gifted the win on Sunday in Arizona and then doing the same on Monday in Houston probably saved the season. If we had gotten swept and then lost Skenes' start for a 4-game skid, I don't know that we even do the small buying that we did. Maybe we still pick up BDLC but instead of adding IKF, we dump Perez's salary and trade Chapman for interesting prospects who don't debut until 2025 or beyond.

We've all said our piece and then some about the deadline, so I won't touch on that here. I feel somewhat vindicated in my various speculations about Kyle Stowers, specifically for Priester, though it looks like he was more of a throw-in for Miami. I will be curious to see how he performs. Part of me does wonder if we could have gotten a similar package for Falter, but Rogers has a much better track record. I think the deadline could be more exciting if we got aggressive and gave Yorke a callup in August, but neither him or Cook is on the 40-man so I do not expect it unless there's some more injuries or Gonzales is done for the year and goes on the 60-day IL.

Looking ahead: 3 vs. ARI, 3 vs. SDP (6 home) + 3 vs. LAD, 3 vs. SDP (6 road)
We have a very symmetrical upcoming schedule to the one we had last time, facing off against all playoff teams and starting with a short home stand before going out on the road for an equally short home stand.

I said a few times last night that I think anyone would gladly take a repeat performance of 7-5 in this upcoming stretch. The Padres are in great form since the break, so the games against them take on some extra importance. Unless I am not looking at things right, I believe neither Keller nor Skenes will face them at all with how the schedule works, which is certainly going to amplify Falter, Ortiz, and Gonzales, because the Padres look to have a firm grasp on one of the WC spots and their schedule is not too tough.

I don't want to get too much into playoff prognostication and guessing here, other than to say that we just need to keep winning for the time being. This is obvious to say, but I think a divisional push is both in the cards and maybe more feasible than leapfrogging several good teams. Milwaukee didn't do a ton at the deadline and have really been scuffling -- their fan base is worried. I am curious to see how the division looks in the next set of games, but we need to take care of our own business.

To wrap up, I think we again need 7-5 here. 6-6 or even 5-7 probably holds enough ground, but it makes everything harder. If we can get 7-5, I really think we'll be 3-4 games back in the division and at worst 1.5-2 back in the WC, but more likely in or tied with somebody.

Without getting too granular, I see these games as needing a win in the Dbacks series, a win in the Dodgers series, and a W-L in SDP. The x-factor is if we can pull off a sweep of the Dbacks given that we have home field advantage and a pretty decent pitching advantage in all the games. Tomorrow's game is massive: we hit Pfaadt very well in Arizona, but Perez basically singlehandedly took us out of the game. He's capable of bouncing back and shutting us down, so the rematch will be significant.

If we can pick up the win, we'll have the wind at our backs and I might revise what I said above to say 7-5 is the baseline, but 8-4 is really within reason if we pull off a sweep and carry the momentum with some consistency. I think the Dodgers are beatable and that they are not going to rush Mookie Betts back from a hand injury to face us (he's taking batting practice). The only wrinkle there is that the Padres are starting to put pressure on them in the division, so I'll say here that the added formula for us is that we want the Dodgers playing well: handle business and sweep the A's, then have a dog fight against Philly that they win just before us, giving them more like a 6-7 game cushion heading into our series if we are able to beat the Padres early next week.

Barring a skid, all the games are going to have intensity from here on out. I agree with most of the sentiment that the deadline was the bare minimum, but from now on, hope springs eternal. Here's to IKF returning tomorrow night and kicking off a stretch run in which he's hitting .340, while Bryan De La Cruz gets scorching hot playing meaningful games and being inserted into a prime RBI spot!
 

BusinessGoose

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Neat stat I saw: since June 1st, the Pirates have the 3rd best record in the NL. They started out the year 26-31 and have gone 29-22 since then. Which isn't even super impressive because that's only a 92 win pace, but just speaks to how atrocious the rest of the NL is this year.
Many it'll be so painful if they miss any action this year. Next year isn't guaranteed. And the NL is wide open competition right now.

I would be PISSED and over the damn moon at the same time if they even were lucky enough to lose a wild card game.
 

TooManyHumans

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May 4, 2018
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I really wish they had picked up a big bat somehow because the playoffs really are right there to be made.
 

Empoleon8771

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I don’t think any big bats were available though. This off-season is when they need to make big moves and sign some guys and make trades.

If they don’t have a payroll of atleast 120 mil then we know the con is on with Nutting.

I think we all know the outcome of this :laugh:

I will say that I've come around to caring less about payroll, though. There are a ton of cheap pre-arb and arb players out there that this team can add that improves the team while not breaking the bank monetarily. But that's just me accepting that Nutting is a permanent handicap against this team.

Basically, I don't care as much about their payroll as much as I care about them adding to the team this off-season. You can get good <$5 million players in their arbitration or pre-arb years if you're willing to trade assets for them.
 
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