OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Dull days of July

[Richard]

The frustrating thing is this team has, legit, the greatest baseball pitcher I have ever seen in Skenes, who knows how to pitch as a rookie and has EVERY pitch. He's gonna be unhittable (barring injury). However, it's just not interesting to me because he will win his World Series in another jersey ala Coles.

I still won't support MLB though I love watching Skenes pitch, I won't watch on TV. Sad. Nuttings need to get the f*** out of Pittsburgh.

 

[TooManyHumans]

What plus bat got traded this deadline

Randy Arozarena, Isaac Parades, Lane Thomas, Jorge Soler, Tommy Pham, and Jazz Chisholm were all better than what we had and better than what we acquired.

 

[MrBrightside]

What would you have liked them to do? Not trade Perez?

Woodford is the best candidate to come up and he has pitched very well at AAA. Would I have liked to see Ashcraft or Burrows in a spot start, sure, but both are hurt or something.

If the choices to start today are Woodford and Perez and the reason Perez was traded was to save Bob Nutting money, yes, I'd rather have not traded Perez. Woodford has started 20 major league games and has an ERA of 5.67 in them. He's started 10 games since the start of 2023 and has an ERA of 8.32 in those games. So no, I don't think he's a good option and yes, I'd rather it have been Perez and I say that as someone who was not a fan of him. This guy against Valdez is about as punting as a game gets. They are supposedly trying to make the playoffs.

 

[BusinessGoose]

The frustrating thing is this team has, legit, the greatest baseball pitcher I have ever seen in Skenes, who knows how to pitch as a rookie and has EVERY pitch. He's gonna be unhittable (barring injury). However, it's just not interesting to me because he will win his World Series in another jersey ala Coles.

I still won't support MLB though I love watching Skenes pitch, I won't watch on TV. Sad. Nuttings need to get the f*** out of Pittsburgh.

Okay

 

[Goalie_Bob]

If the choices to start today are Woodford and Perez and the reason Perez was traded was to save Bob Nutting money, yes, I'd rather have not traded Perez. Woodford has started 20 major league games and has an ERA of 5.67 in them. He's started 10 games since the start of 2023 and has an ERA of 8.32 in those games. So no, I don't think he's a good option and yes, I'd rather it have been Perez and I say that as someone who was not a fan of him. This guy against Valdez is about as punting as a game gets. They are supposedly trying to make the playoffs.

So he'll probably pitch like 5 innings of 1 run ball.....just to spite you

 

[MrBrightside]

So he'll probably pitch like 5 innings of 1 run ball.....just to spite you

Probably. I'd accept it.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

What would that get you, if successful?

12,500. A risk i am willing to take

 

[Coastal Kev]

If the choices to start today are Woodford and Perez and the reason Perez was traded was to save Bob Nutting money, yes, I'd rather have not traded Perez. Woodford has started 20 major league games and has an ERA of 5.67 in them. He's started 10 games since the start of 2023 and has an ERA of 8.32 in those games. So no, I don't think he's a good option and yes, I'd rather it have been Perez and I say that as someone who was not a fan of him. This guy against Valdez is about as punting as a game gets. They are supposedly trying to make the playoffs.

I blame MLB, they set up a failed system that emphasizes Big market success and huge lower market profits. Nutting is making a killing, probably nearing a 100 million in profit every year.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I like how Tommy Pham is a “plus bat” while IKF somehow isn’t, despite IKF having better offensive numbers this year.

 

[BusinessGoose]

I like how Tommy Pham is a “plus bat” while IKF somehow isn’t, despite IKF having better offensive numbers this year.

Pham DID hit a grand slam last night

Still don't want him on the team.

IKF can't possibly be worse than Joe at the plate. Which i get it, sucks to be happy about "not as bad as the shit we have."

but that's the reality, we just needed a little help to be over average. We got that. We didn't get a full allstar team... Never would have.

 

[MrBrightside]

I mean, career OPS+ numbers aren't really close - Pham is 113 and IKF is 84. I mean, if we are going to ignore every aspect of their careers other than a few months of 2024, IKF is a better hitter. Otherwise, it's not close and Pham is the superior bat.

NOTHING IN THIS POST IS ADVOCATING FOR ACQUIRING TOMMY PHAM.

 

[TooManyHumans]

I like how Tommy Pham is a “plus bat” while IKF somehow isn’t, despite IKF having better offensive numbers this year.

I put more stock in their careers than in a couple hundred at bats this year. For their careers, it is not even close. Pham 113 OPS+. IKF 84 OPS+. But whatever. Take Pham out of the list. There were still guys moved who were better than what we got.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I mean, career OPS+ numbers aren't really close - Pham is 113 and IKF is 84. I mean, if we are going to ignore every aspect of their careers other than a few months of 2024, IKF is a better hitter. Otherwise, it's not close and Pham is the superior bat.

NOTHING IN THIS POST IS ADVOCATING FOR ACQUIRING TOMMY PHAM.

If you want to ignore everything outside of a few months of 2024, Jack Suwinski is also a major HR threat in the MLB and should be playing everyday against righties in the MLB.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

I agree that Bowden is usually not the best but also that B- seems about right. Maybe you get a bit of a curve if BDLC or IKF has a hot stretch... I think that's a fair caveat with buying at the deadline. This is a bit of cope/hopium, but the actual performance you get in these crucial months is almost more important than the potential control.

For example, if De La Cruz plays his best baseball for 2 months and does something like hit 10 home runs and produce 120 wRC+, that would be a pretty massive W for the pro scouting/Haines/Shelton triad (everybody's favorite group!), and even if several people (myself included) start dreaming on him permanently unlocking that kind of above average everyday player role for his next seasons, it almost doesn't matter that he will likely regress from that.

That example is obviously an extremely optimistic guess at what could happen. I don't think it will.

IKF is someone who I like because a .280 hitter is still really going to help this lineup. I also like his positional versatility, though I think that could drive some people mad who don't love Shelton's tinkering. I am way higher on Shelton than most everybody else, so I am fine giving him that flexibility to kind of mix and match and work with.

That said, with IKF, it's important to emphasize that a lot of his overall value comes from his ability to play premium positions. I don't think he'll do much more than spot Cruz at shortstop, so we're going to see how much of that comes from CF. He's definitely something of a regression candidate, and I think there will be a microscope put to the remainder of his season. I lean towards liking the trade more than most, but McAdoo could certainly end up backfiring on us, and IKF has missed a decent chunk of time -- effectively a month though that covers the ASB. He had a phenomenal June, hitting .333 with a .823 OPS. If you get something close to that for the remainder of the season, it will be hard not to look at that as a big W, but he could also struggle to get back in sync at the MLB level.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm kind of indifferent to the axegrinding of someone like Perotto. If we just narrow our focus to Chisholm, it would have taken either Chandler or Johnson as the headliner to get him, and it seems like Miami wanted a batter. That's still an indictment on Cherington, but I don't quite see the financial angle being too relevant. The only real financially relevant guy being moved was Bell, and he's not a fit on this roster.

Meant to respond to this last night but forgot to, I was really confused with his seeming excuse making for Cherington's deadline. He tweeted out that Cherington did the best he could with Nutting not allowing him to add payroll, but:

1. The Pirates traded Perez to open up money to add, and I think a huge majority of Pirates fans don't even remotely care about losing him.
2. If you want to comment about Cherington not getting a top bat because of that money constraint, it doesn't make sense because guys like Chisholm make less money than IKF makes. Cherington traded for IKF and his $7.5 million a year salary because he wanted him.
3. I don't even think his deadline was bad in the first place. Like most people here have said, it's a solid C+/B-/B type of deadline.

It seems like Perrotto is a lap dog for the front office to deflect any criticism towards them to Nutting, so it's not unexpected. But it's just weird for him to be saying basically "feel bad for Cherington because he had to trade Martin Perez to open up money for additions", as if anyone gives a shit that they don't have Martin Perez anymore

 

[MrBrightside]

If you want to ignore everything outside of a few months of 2024, Jack Suwinski is also a major HR threat in the MLB and should be playing everyday against righties in the MLB.

If you don't get the difference between Suwinski and Pham's track records, I don't know what to tell you. You're going to defend EVERYTHING that the Pirates do, I get it, so we can agree to disagree on the idea that IDK is a better hitter than Tommy Pham. Go Bucs.

 

[Empoleon8771]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1818640614050738328

 

[TimmyD]

Meant to respond to this last night but forgot to, I was really confused with his seeming excuse making for Cherington's deadline. He tweeted out that Cherington did the best he could with Nutting not allowing him to add payroll, but:

1. The Pirates traded Perez to open up money to add, and I think a huge majority of Pirates fans don't even remotely care about losing him.
2. If you want to comment about Cherington not getting a top bat because of that money constraint, it doesn't make sense because guys like Chisholm make less money than IKF makes. Cherington traded for IKF and his $7.5 million a year salary because he wanted him.
3. I don't even think his deadline was bad in the first place. Like most people here have said, it's a solid C+/B-/B type of deadline.

It seems like Perrotto is a lap dog for the front office to deflect any criticism towards them to Nutting, so it's not unexpected. But it's just weird for him to be saying basically "feel bad for Cherington because he had to trade Martin Perez to open up money for additions", as if anyone gives a shit that they don't have Martin Perez anymore

The disappointment in that tweet isn’t from them needing to deal Martin Perez… it’s that if it’s legitimately true (and with Nutting I have every reason to believe it is) it prevented the Pirates from adding another bat. Imagine if they could have added De La Cruz, Winker and IKF. Or De La Cruz, Thomas and IKF. Or something along those lines. No one is sad about losing Martin Perez. They are disappointed that this team supposedly was under a mandate to keep salary equal instead of just adding to it… it’s a sign that nothing is changing anytime soon with Nutting and that they definitely won’t address much of anything this offseason when they could really add an impact bat.

 

[Empoleon8771]

If you don't get the difference between Suwinski and Pham's track records, I don't know what to tell you. You're going to defend EVERYTHING that the Pirates do, I get it, so we can agree to disagree on the idea that IDK is a better hitter than Tommy Pham. Go Bucs.

I don't understand why we're somehow not looking at stats for players this year (IKF) while looking at stats this year for other players (DLC).

Not only that, but some of these complaints about players are just splitting hairs. The only difference between De La Cruz and Lane Thomas (who I was also supportive of acquiring) is that Thomas walks a bit more, that's really it. The two have basically identical batting averages (.245 for DLC, .253 for Thomas) and slugging percentage (.417 for De La Cruz, .407 for Thomas). The only difference in their overall OPS is that Thomas walks more, which does make him better but doesn't make him this magical bat that De La Cruz can't even sniff. It's the same thing with Pham. Before he was traded, Pham had a 100 OPS+ with a slugging percentage of .380. Why are we complaining that they traded for De La Cruz over Pham?

Mentioning missing out on Chisholm and Paredes is totally fair IMO, with Chisholm filling a huge positional need and Paredes just being a monster OBP machine with legit power. But De La Cruz, Pham and Thomas are all these lower end starters/good bench piece tier players and fretting over one versus the other is silly.

The disappointment in that tweet isn’t from them needing to deal Martin Perez… it’s that if it’s legitimately true (and with Nutting I have every reason to believe it is) it prevented the Pirates from adding another bat. Imagine if they could have added De La Cruz, Winker and IKF. Or De La Cruz, Thomas and IKF. Or something along those lines. No one is sad about losing Martin Perez. They are disappointed that this team supposedly was under a mandate to keep salary equal instead of just adding to it… it’s a sign that nothing is changing anytime soon with Nutting and that they definitely won’t address much of anything this offseason when they could really add an impact bat.

They could have just not traded for IKF and uses his money to get both Chisholm and Thomas. I have a really tough time saying "feel bad for Cherington with his money constraints!" when he's the one who decided to trade for a $7.5 million IKF over a $2.63 million Chisholm.

I'm not even saying this to suggest I dislike the IKF addition, I just think it's dumb to make it a "Nutting won't let Cherington spend!" argument when Cherington easily could have used the money available from the Perez trade to get better hitters than what he did. They didn't get better hitters because Cherington didn't want to pay the assets to get better hitters, not because Cherington was constrained with money by Nutting.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Randy Arozarena, Isaac Parades, Lane Thomas, Jorge Soler, Tommy Pham, and Jazz Chisholm were all better than what we had and better than what we acquired.

Soler Pham and Thomas were not better. Jazz doesn’t want to play in the of

 

[Ryder71]

Signing Griffin warms my heart!

 

[ImporterExporter]

Yeah, was starting to get a bit worried on the Griffin front. Tomorrow is the deadline to sign draft picks. Nice to have him locked up. Hopefully he'll get a little bit of a run in August.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

I do not see any examples of MLB bats who have salaries that would have prevented us from acquiring them, if we assume (with decent reason) that payroll restrictions were in place.

The only one I can come up with is Josh Bell, who the Dbacks picked up as an emergency add with Walker getting hurt, and who isn't very good and who doesn't really make any sense on this roster even as a hail mary "he might be good for two months who knows".

I believe we deserve a lot of criticism for not being in on Winker, who makes almost nothing and would have hugely upgraded a corner - over BDLC for sure. I don't think there's much of a gap between BDLC and Lane Thomas. Thomas gives you better speed, but neither is much of a plus fielder. Regardless, Thomas doesn't make much money.

Absent a specific rumor about a specific deal, any money talk just seems like low hanging fruit. My attitude is that we should apply it in the offseason if more upgrades aren't acquired then, because at least there's some excuse of ambiguity from last offseason. I don't buy that and think they deserve criticism for that offseason, but with Skenes storming on the scene and Jones emerging like he has, there's absolutely no excuse not to be more aggressive with the whole offseason ahead.

If anything, the non-trade of Chapman speaks pretty clearly against the notion that money was a big factor.

 

[TooManyHumans]

Soler Pham and Thomas were not better. Jazz doesn’t want to play in the of

I think they are better and I think the stats show that. Maybe not worlds better but better.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

I think they are better and I think the stats show that. Maybe not worlds better but better.

Soler hasn’t played a game all season in the field he strictly been a dh. Pham is a platoon bench guy like Thomas