OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Congrats to the Houston Cheaters on their win

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Cruz hit an absolute missile for his 9th tonight just a few mins ago as well. I fully support him coming up and being the main DH while getting in some spot starts around the field. Bae should also be up, but I struggle to see where Shelton puts him given his MO.
 
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If this team ever got healthy, I'd want to see:

C: Heineman
1B: Chavis
2B: Castillo
3B: Hayes
SS: Newman
LF: Gamel
CF: Reynolds
RF: Suwinski
DH: Vogelbach
Extras: Allen, Marcano, backup catcher not named Perez

It sucks that the Pirates are effectively limited to 12 batters on their roster, I would like to see Cruz up but can you really justify that for a guy that is solely a SS/DH? It's the same reason I don't want Tsutsugo on the roster if the team was healthy, a guy who can only play 1B/DH (or OF poorly) doesn't really seem like a great use of a roster spot.

I think Vogelbach as the DH is giving me a good idea for why it's a problem to have a pure DH on the roster. With the Pirates, they arguably have 2 of those guys with Vogelbach and Tsutsugo.
 
Disappointing everything in that game, though we would never expect such a poor hitting team and poor lefty-hitting team to make hay off of Max Fried. Good for Suwinski and definitely good for Brubaker too.
 
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Disappointing everything in that game, though we would never expect such a poor hitting team and poor lefty-hitting team to make hay off of Max Fried. Good for Suwinski and definitely good for Brubaker too.

The bats are just awful w/ RISP.

It's a young team meshed together with a lot of retreads who are starting to stink as far as the position players go.

Get Cruz up for the bat. Get Bae up as another super utility guy who can play all over, not to mention his bat has been easily the most impressive of anyone in Indy in my book. 30 game on base streak counting tonight. 300+ hitter w/pop showing up now + legit speed to steal 20+ bags over a year.

But we'll have to suffer through more Vogelbach, Chang, etc, etc. Certainly at least through this road trip and likely a bit beyond.

BTW, Cruz coming up to bat w/the game tied at 5 in the bottom of the 9th.
 
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Bae has had a nice season but he's not on the 40-man and I think it's a separate question from Cruz, even if there are multiple guys who could be moved off the 40-man to make room for Bae.

When Super Two clears, it's time for Cruz to get as many ABs as possible in MLB. This team is not going anywhere and that was the plan at the start of the season. Cruz was put and then kept in AAA for service time reasons. He's now dialed it in at the plate and should be getting a healthy, regular dose of MLB at-bats.

Even if he struggles some, it's beyond time to push him at this level and then assess what his role is going forward. He's in a good place at the plate right now, and he can also impact the game on the basepaths with easy plus speed. I think something that's not been remarked on as much is that he's drawing walks at a really healthy clip this year. The cumulative K% isn't bad, and I'm sure you could shave it from 24-25 to something really nice like 19-20 with a bit of a thumb on the scale from some of the earlier games or that one terrible week vs. Iowa.

By and large, other top prospects who teams let make their roster and started slow have now turned it on and are settling into good debut seasons. Cherington has kicked the can long enough.
 
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Bae has had a nice season but he's not on the 40-man and I think it's a separate question from Cruz, even if there are multiple guys who could be moved off the 40-man to make room for Bae.

When Super Two clears, it's time for Cruz to get as many ABs as possible in MLB. This team is not going anywhere and that was the plan at the start of the season. Cruz was put and then kept in AAA for service time reasons. He's now dialed it in at the plate and should be getting a healthy, regular dose of MLB at-bats.

Even if he struggles some, it's beyond time to push him at this level and then assess what his role is going forward. He's in a good place at the plate right now, and he can also impact the game on the basepaths with easy plus speed. I think something that's not been remarked on as much is that he's drawing walks at a really healthy clip this year. The cumulative K% isn't bad, and I'm sure you could shave it from 24-25 to something really nice like 19-20 with a bit of a thumb on the scale from some of the earlier games or that one terrible week vs. Iowa.

By and large, other top prospects who teams let make their roster and started slow have now turned it on and are settling into good debut seasons. Cherington has kicked the can long enough.

I agree with this, though I think Bae has definitely been better than "nice". His numbers across the board are fantastic. His splits look great.

He's got more hits, extra base hits (he's got 6 homers to Cruz's 9), runs, 1 more SB, fewer K's, his average is 80 points higher. He's outslugging Cruz, getting on base more, and unlike Cruz, can play more than 1 position without too much worry.

This is a guy who was and is still ranked as a 2nd/3rd tier prospect. His ceiling was/is higher than some of the rookies that are already up with the big club. I don't want people underselling a 22 year old kid who's really done nothing but hit throughout his entire minor league career. You add an easy 60 and probably 70 grade runner. Dude has been on base in 30 straight games. That's bordering on ridiculous.

He's ranked a lot higher than Suwinksi was. Mitchell and certainly Marcano after the subpar year he had last year.

You know why Swaggerty is up over Bae? Draft position. Former top 10 pick, 1 great month, gets the call up and 40 man roster spot. I'm not complaining as I know the game and understand how to read between the lines.

But Bae has been absolutely stellar all year, not just a single month.

If we're going to talk about rewarding great play, he's easily the most deserving and I hope him not being on the 40 man is not enough to screw him over, given there are numerous cold bodies who can be punted off the 40 man right now.
 
Idk how you justify keeping Chang on the roster. Are they really hoping he’ll catch fire and be a trade piece or something? He should almost never see PT
 
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Bae has had a nice season but he's not on the 40-man and I think it's a separate question from Cruz, even if there are multiple guys who could be moved off the 40-man to make room for Bae.

When Super Two clears, it's time for Cruz to get as many ABs as possible in MLB. This team is not going anywhere and that was the plan at the start of the season. Cruz was put and then kept in AAA for service time reasons. He's now dialed it in at the plate and should be getting a healthy, regular dose of MLB at-bats.

Even if he struggles some, it's beyond time to push him at this level and then assess what his role is going forward. He's in a good place at the plate right now, and he can also impact the game on the basepaths with easy plus speed. I think something that's not been remarked on as much is that he's drawing walks at a really healthy clip this year. The cumulative K% isn't bad, and I'm sure you could shave it from 24-25 to something really nice like 19-20 with a bit of a thumb on the scale from some of the earlier games or that one terrible week vs. Iowa.

By and large, other top prospects who teams let make their roster and started slow have now turned it on and are settling into good debut seasons. Cherington has kicked the can long enough.

I think you'd have to DFA Chang to get a MLB spot for Bae anyway, so I think that would be a self correcting problem.

I'm fine with giving Cruz a bunch of ABs in the majors, it's why I wish they could just make him the everyday DH and just let his defensive game grow gradually. It just sucks that they have Vogelbach taking up the spot of "pure DH".
 
A global concern, as this is largely the group of hitters we are going to have going forward: I find the lack of right-handed bats disconcerting.

Maybe the full picture will emerge when Davis/Pegeuro/Gonzo make it up here, but chances are at least 1 of them outright busts in the first place. I see a lot of lefty bats that I can't see ever being effective against ML lefty arms: Swaggerty, Marcano, Reynolds righty is believe is Walker/Bell 3.0, I'm very confident that Cruz won't hit lefties, if Martin makes it he'll struggle, etc.

We've now had a couple of non-competitive games against good lefty pitching and a loss to any non-soft tossing LHSP feels automatic.
 
I think Vogelbach is too slow/fat for MLB. It made me mad when he was easily thrown out at 1st from right field yesterday.
 
Great news in the minors.

I'll say in the strongest possible terms that I'm done with Vogelbach. He has lost whatever "It" factor he had at the plate earlier in the year. He is not swinging at inner third pitches and then flailing at random stuff with his little midget bat. Dude sucks. He should never play against any lefty.

Castillo needs to do anything today, too.

He's probably got a couple more weeks like this before he's DFA'd. Dude is pathetic right now.

Oh man - that's some quality work 🤣

Also this Pirates-Braves game should be a win for the Pirates, but Vogelbach, Chavis and Castillo have failed the team.

I'm fully over Vogelbach at this point.
Me too.

And he looks even heavier than coming out of Spring Training...
 
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I'm an Infovore, and a realist able to make those creative leaps when a bunch of pieces fit together suddenly, and you jump ahead of the average person in your understanding of a subject.

That worked for me in business and as a Leader. I understand people so much better then I once did - how they tick, and how they learn, and how they grow. I used to have to develop management teams for a living, so that they could run the business for me with the values that I needed. The way we ran things, my job was to help them grow as humans and people to reach their full potential, even if it meant them leaving my business at some point. So I have a certain perspective.

Ultimately I do enjoy talking with you guys. But I don't get into the depths and details of why I believe the things I believe here very often. Today I want to write something a little deeper than usual that explains how I see the World. So yinz can know I'm not just throwing shit at a wall. Or at least, not very often. 😁

These days I don't have a lot of time to write long posts, I'd much rather be reading what a Keller thinks about what he's been doing in the off season, or watching his training vids on Twitter honestly. Because I'm that data compiler, one who studies half a dozen fields, and I want to be able to make an intuitive leap. And to do that I need a lot of information on a given subject. And I've done all that with Mitch Keller.

Mitch kinda blew me away in Spring Training with the variety and quality of the non-fastballs he's been working on. The dude can really manipulate a baseball. That's where his future lies, he can make the ball do things other people can't. Even if he doesn't figure out the fastball, that will get him where he needs to go to at least be effective.

That seam shifted wake sweeper is crazy stuff, can't wait to see how it influences the rest of his game once he's comfortable. I've seen him throw four different kinds of sliders this year, every one of them super impressive in a different way. And let's be honest - Keller is simply a brighter dude than most baseball players. He's got an edge in the brain department, if he can develop more confidence. At this point I believe the basic "stuff" is just too good to fail, as I'm I'm not viewing him as a fastball Pitcher.

Ultimately I think he ends up as a sort of junk baller - his fastball will play off his breaking balls. He's going to figure out that Slider, or replace it with something better. I also believe Mitch Keller will learn and throw a Splitter or a Cutter quite effectively at some point in his career. I rarely hear him mention any pirate coaches, I'm not really sure he trusts them. I get the impression much of his development recently is self-driven.

So that's what I think, what I expect of Mitch Keller. Then I saw him learn a Sinker in 3 weeks this month. That pitch is quite impressive, maybe even good enough to play the rest of his repertoire off. So I'm still seeing growth and high potential here. And when he does put it all together, I really don't know how good he can be, but I'm super curious because it could be quite amazing. But it's more likely he'll be a solid 3-4 someday soon IMO. Probably in the next 14 months, and possibly this year. And he will keep growing and improving, probably into his 30's. He can really manipulate the baseball, and the Bucs failed Mitch in his prime development years IMO.

Yes I know, I'm tripling down on Mitch frigging Keller.... And that's what I do. Development and learning requires patience. I had to learn that in the business world, because I was building sustainable companies that people could count on.

The final conclusion is he's going to develop into an effective pitcher. One with a couple of + pitches to throw his fastball off of. He's likely a legit 3 for us by mid-season next year, the ceiling will still be high IMO. Particularly if that Sinker is for real.

I assume the Pirates see the same thing as I do, that ability to manipulate pitches. And developing slowly in an environment that did not support that kind of creativity for the most part. Keller's mos def that player that becomes an ace in New York or LA under those great coaching environments IMO. You can't give up on a kid like this - he's a few years behind simply from the bad coaching under the previous regime.

Edit: I did the same thing on Kenny Pickett. For years I described to my Pitt community what his game and challenges were, and why I believed he was an NFL QB. Even after the 8 yard game in the ACC Championship Game, I predicted if Coach brought in a good OC that knew what he was doing in the passing game, Kenny would take care of the rest. I admit, I also predicted if the OC wasn't a quality QB Coach that Kenny would not make it to the NFL.

You see personalities come into play in these things quite a bit. They're not automatons - they're people. And people have personalities, characteristics, strengths and weaknesses that often lead to success or failure. And the quality of the people and the knowledge surrounding them matters. The learning environment matters.

Personally - I believe the Pirates have created a very very good learning environment across their Organization. Finally. So I'm Bullish on Mitch Keller, at a time when everyone else it seems are talking The Big Bad Bear with him.

The damage has been done as far as his buy-in with our coaches IMO, he's gonna do it his way now. So I'm thankful the new Pirates development paradigm encourages player ownership of their own development. Mitch doesn't trust us anymore, but he's actually in the right environment now. Well maybe not Marin, but you know what I mean.

P.S. you probably don't want to know my heavily researched opinions on where the whole world's going economically. So I'm not an eternal optimist, something I've come to assume you guys view me as. I just get people and how they learn. I'm patient. And I'm often but not always right.
 
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Volgelbach will be fine. He should probably only be a platoon guy, but he will be fine.

I swear to god, the posters here will turn on literally any player in a slump as if production in this sport is a linear thing.

The dude is having a slump coming out of an injury. Relax, people.
 
I'm a little bit more pessimistic about Cruz's promotion timeline, the more I think about it. Super Two will be easily, definitively cleared by the home stand next weekend, and Cruz's game is on the clear upswing that the FO likes to see when they time the promotion, but with him seemingly getting eased back into games with the ankle injury, I could still see foot dragging for a couple more weeks.

I hope I am wrong, because I think at this point it's well overdo and not doing it will have bad ripple effects with the relationship and more importantly, with the development that needs to take place vs. MLB pitching this season. Calling him up now will give the chance for 3.5 months, which is still a big chunk of the season.

There's no sense in denying that people are right to worry about the errors accumulated, but I will stick to my position that the seeming-consensus that Cruz is a bad defensive player is built around simply not watching him play. The entire discussion, to me, is also predicated on either an unawareness of just how impactful his bat can be at shortstop even with subpar defensive outcomes, or an unwillingness to dig into the type of mistakes he makes.

The area where his defense most needs work is the consistency of throw to 1B. It's something that can improve, and otherwise he can field the position at a very high level. There are ways to mitigate potential risks, such as late substitutions in very close games where a runner on+stolen base can lose the game or tie it up, but even that kind of plotting is something that can unfold after he gets into the mix and gets experience. I think the natural progression should be that he plays SS regularly and also gets time at DH when Castillo, Marcano, or others play SS, and then occasionally gets a game in LF.

If someone forces him off the position in the future, or the consistency of the throws never gets better, then you adjust the situation. But there are plenty of teams who rotate players around a lot, and the clear strategy of the FO is moving in that direction. This is also all besides the point, IMO, because the 2022 team is not trying to win, and the overriding reason he's in AAA is to manipulate his service time.

I don't think there's anything left for him to do in AAA, and we're right on the edge of him still having the opportunity to get a lot of MLB experience. If we don't drag our feet and get him up here for the home stand, then there's a full month's worth of games before the all star break.

He doesn't need to be the savior of the franchise, and high expectations are going to be unavoidable, but for me, at the end of the day, I think there's been so much noise that overlooks the fact that a higher end outcome of his profile is 35-40 HRs, 20 SBs, and up and down defense with some stellar plays. What's going to be frustrating is if he doesn't hit the ground running and isn't given consistent playing time. J-Rod and Witt struggled out of the gate, but now with consistent playing time, have settled in and look to be franchise cornerstones going forward. Setting aside all the noise and drama invoked by the Pirates decision-making, for me, that needs to be the overriding strategy with Cruz for the rest of this season.
 
I'm a little bit more pessimistic about Cruz's promotion timeline, the more I think about it. Super Two will be easily, definitively cleared by the home stand next weekend, and Cruz's game is on the clear upswing that the FO likes to see when they time the promotion, but with him seemingly getting eased back into games with the ankle injury, I could still see foot dragging for a couple more weeks.

I hope I am wrong, because I think at this point it's well overdo and not doing it will have bad ripple effects with the relationship and more importantly, with the development that needs to take place vs. MLB pitching this season. Calling him up now will give the chance for 3.5 months, which is still a big chunk of the season.

There's no sense in denying that people are right to worry about the errors accumulated, but I will stick to my position that the seeming-consensus that Cruz is a bad defensive player is built around simply not watching him play. The entire discussion, to me, is also predicated on either an unawareness of just how impactful his bat can be at shortstop even with subpar defensive outcomes, or an unwillingness to dig into the type of mistakes he makes.

The area where his defense most needs work is the consistency of throw to 1B. It's something that can improve, and otherwise he can field the position at a very high level. There are ways to mitigate potential risks, such as late substitutions in very close games where a runner on+stolen base can lose the game or tie it up, but even that kind of plotting is something that can unfold after he gets into the mix and gets experience. I think the natural progression should be that he plays SS regularly and also gets time at DH when Castillo, Marcano, or others play SS, and then occasionally gets a game in LF.

If someone forces him off the position in the future, or the consistency of the throws never gets better, then you adjust the situation. But there are plenty of teams who rotate players around a lot, and the clear strategy of the FO is moving in that direction. This is also all besides the point, IMO, because the 2022 team is not trying to win, and the overriding reason he's in AAA is to manipulate his service time.

I don't think there's anything left for him to do in AAA, and we're right on the edge of him still having the opportunity to get a lot of MLB experience. If we don't drag our feet and get him up here for the home stand, then there's a full month's worth of games before the all star break.

He doesn't need to be the savior of the franchise, and high expectations are going to be unavoidable, but for me, at the end of the day, I think there's been so much noise that overlooks the fact that a higher end outcome of his profile is 35-40 HRs, 20 SBs, and up and down defense with some stellar plays. What's going to be frustrating is if he doesn't hit the ground running and isn't given consistent playing time. J-Rod and Witt struggled out of the gate, but now with consistent playing time, have settled in and look to be franchise cornerstones going forward. Setting aside all the noise and drama invoked by the Pirates decision-making, for me, that needs to be the overriding strategy with Cruz for the rest of this season.

The only rebuttal I have to this is I have watched a lot of Cruz over the last 2 years. Yes, it's easy to point to the raw # of errors and say bad, and I've done that myself, but the reality is, consistency and repetition of good baseball is how you stick at a premium defensive position. There is no world where committing an error every 3 games is acceptable. It just isn't. You won't find a GM, manager, bench coach, or any other reputable baseball person that refutes that.

I'm probably the only person on here that's seen Cruz in person. I may not have the sheer volume of innings watched on TV, but it's pretty significant regardless.

Cruz has botched many (relative to peers) routine grounders over his entire minor league career. That's not even speaking to the accuray on the throws which comes and goes. Yes, he absolutely looks the part. He's much more fluid than a Polanco was (fellow big guy) and his length and surprising short area quickness allows him to field the position better than the random person might imagine. He makes many fantastic plays, absolutely. No one can deny that.

It's the consistency that is lacking. That's MY issue and I'd imagine the reason why he's been shifted to other spots as well beyond SS. Errors will happen. Nobody, not even Ozzie Smith was perfect. But you cannot accept so many errors happening as acceptable at the ML level. Not on a winning baseball team and I promise you, that if he get a shot at SS, and commits errors at the rate he has in the minors, it will get him shifted. Zero doubt in my mind.

BUT, he should be up now for his bat alone. That much I'm certain of.

And I hope he proves me wrong as a SS. He's young and obviously can still improve on the consistency issue that exists.
 
Volgelbach will be fine. He should probably only be a platoon guy, but he will be fine.

I swear to god, the posters here will turn on literally any player in a slump as if production in this sport is a linear thing.

The dude is having a slump coming out of an injury. Relax, people.
That's legit. I criticize others, so...
 
I'm an Infovore, and a realist able to make those creative leaps when a bunch of pieces fit together suddenly, and you jump ahead of the average person in your understanding of a subject.

That worked for me in business and as a Leader. I understand people so much better then I once did - how they tick, and how they learn, and how they grow. I used to have to develop management teams for a living, so that they could run the business for me with the values that I needed. The way we ran things, my job was to help them grow as humans and people to reach their full potential, even if it meant them leaving my business at some point. So I have a certain perspective.

Ultimately I do enjoy talking with you guys. But I don't get into the depths and details of why I believe the things I believe here very often. Today I want to write something a little deeper than usual that explains how I see the World. So yinz can know I'm not just throwing shit at a wall. Or at least, not very often. 😁

These days I don't have a lot of time to write long posts, I'd much rather be reading what a Keller thinks about what he's been doing in the off season, or watching his training vids on Twitter honestly. Because I'm that data compiler, one who studies half a dozen fields, and I want to be able to make an intuitive leap. And to do that I need a lot of information on a given subject. And I've done all that with Mitch Keller.

Mitch kinda blew me away in Spring Training with the variety and quality of the non-fastballs he's been working on. The dude can really manipulate a baseball. That's where his future lies, he can make the ball do things other people can't. Even if he doesn't figure out the fastball, that will get him where he needs to go to at least be effective.

That seam shifted wake sweeper is crazy stuff, can't wait to see how it influences the rest of his game once he's comfortable. I've seen him throw four different kinds of sliders this year, every one of them super impressive in a different way. And let's be honest - Keller is simply a brighter dude than most baseball players. He's got an edge in the brain department, if he can develop more confidence. At this point I believe the basic "stuff" is just too good to fail, as I'm I'm not viewing him as a fastball Pitcher.

Ultimately I think he ends up as a sort of junk baller - his fastball will play off his breaking balls. He's going to figure out that Slider, or replace it with something better. I also believe Mitch Keller will learn and throw a Splitter or a Cutter quite effectively at some point in his career. I rarely hear him mention any pirate coaches, I'm not really sure he trusts them. I get the impression much of his development recently is self-driven.

So that's what I think, what I expect of Mitch Keller. Then I saw him learn a Sinker in 3 weeks this month. That pitch is quite impressive, maybe even good enough to play the rest of his repertoire off. So I'm still seeing growth and high potential here. And when he does put it all together, I really don't know how good he can be, but I'm super curious because it could be quite amazing. But it's more likely he'll be a solid 3-4 someday soon IMO. Probably in the next 14 months, and possibly this year. And he will keep growing and improving, probably into his 30's. He can really manipulate the baseball, and the Bucs failed Mitch in his prime development years IMO.

Yes I know, I'm tripling down on Mitch frigging Keller.... And that's what I do. Development and learning requires patience. I had to learn that in the business world, because I was building sustainable companies that people could count on.

The final conclusion is he's going to develop into an effective pitcher. One with a couple of + pitches to throw his fastball off of. He's likely a legit 3 for us by mid-season next year, the ceiling will still be high IMO. Particularly if that Sinker is for real.

I assume the Pirates see the same thing as I do, that ability to manipulate pitches. And developing slowly in an environment that did not support that kind of creativity for the most part. Keller's mos def that player that becomes an ace in New York or LA under those great coaching environments IMO. You can't give up on a kid like this - he's a few years behind simply from the bad coaching under the previous regime.

Edit: I did the same thing on Kenny Pickett. For years I described to my Pitt community what his game and challenges were, and why I believed he was an NFL QB. Even after the 8 yard game in the ACC Championship Game, I predicted if Coach brought in a good OC that knew what he was doing in the passing game, Kenny would take care of the rest. I admit, I also predicted if the OC wasn't a quality QB Coach that Kenny would not make it to the NFL.

You see personalities come into play in these things quite a bit. They're not automatons - they're people. And people have personalities, characteristics, strengths and weaknesses that often lead to success or failure. And the quality of the people and the knowledge surrounding them matters. The learning environment matters.

Personally - I believe the Pirates have created a very very good learning environment across their Organization. Finally. So I'm Bullish on Mitch Keller, at a time when everyone else it seems are talking The Big Bad Bear with him.

The damage has been done as far as his buy-in with our coaches IMO, he's gonna do it his way now. So I'm thankful the new Pirates development paradigm encourages player ownership of their own development. Mitch doesn't trust us anymore, but he's actually in the right environment now. Well maybe not Marin, but you know what I mean.

P.S. you probably don't want to know my heavily researched opinions on where the whole world's going economically. So I'm not an eternal optimist, something I've come to assume you guys view me as. I just get people and how they learn. I'm patient. And I'm often but not always right.

Very interesting and enlightening read!

My only issue w/this take (on Keller) is his command. I don't care how much spin or break you have on a pitch. You can throw 100 all day long. If you can't consistently locate pitches, you're not going to be a SP very long.

I can't understand how anyone who's watched Keller thinks he's remotely close in terms of having even average command of his arsenal. Until I/we see an uptick there, he's going to struggle to be anything more than a #5/bullpen arm. And I do wonder how much more rope he gets in this department.

I watch Roansy pitch and so many of his offerings are right to the mitt. Literally, a laser. Same thing with Quintana, though he obviously doesn't have the power of RC. Watch those 2 guys and then watch Keller and it's night and day in terms of being able to harness the plus pitches they do have.

Again, I'm pulling for Mitch. I just wonder how much more he can improve given he's been up at the big league level for a while now. Command is a lot like throwing a football with accuracy. In a lot of cases you have it or you don't by a certain point and not a lot will change past a threshold.
 
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That's legit. I criticize others, so...

I'm not singling anybody out.

In general, we (myself included) have a tendency for the reactionary take in a sport where small sample sizes ultimately tell you little.

It's just that Vogey went from one of our favorite players to half the forum all but calling for him to get DFA'd in like 3 weeks and that is batshit insane.

And I don't know who in particular has done it, but the people calling him names based on his weight need to go back to 5th grade where that material has a chance at playing.
 
The only rebuttal I have to this is I have watched a lot of Cruz over the last 2 years. Yes, it's easy to point to the raw # of errors and say bad, and I've done that myself, but the reality is, consistency and repetition of good baseball is how you stick at a premium defensive position. There is no world where committing an error every 3 games is acceptable. It just isn't. You won't find a GM, manager, bench coach, or any other reputable baseball person that refutes that.

I'm probably the only person on here that's seen Cruz in person. I may not have the sheer volume of innings watched on TV, but it's pretty significant regardless.

Cruz has botched many (relative to peers) routine grounders over his entire minor league career. That's not even speaking to the accuray on the throws which comes and goes. Yes, he absolutely looks the part. He's much more fluid than a Polanco was (fellow big guy) and his length and surprising short area quickness allows him to field the position better than the random person might imagine. He makes many fantastic plays, absolutely. No one can deny that.

It's the consistency that is lacking. That's MY issue and I'd imagine the reason why he's been shifted to other spots as well beyond SS. Errors will happen. Nobody, not even Ozzie Smith was perfect. But you cannot accept so many errors happening as acceptable at the ML level. Not on a winning baseball team and I promise you, that if he get a shot at SS, and commits errors at the rate he has in the minors, it will get him shifted. Zero doubt in my mind.

BUT, he should be up now for his bat alone. That much I'm certain of.

And I hope he proves me wrong as a SS. He's young and obviously can still improve on the consistency issue that exists.

Your experience with Cruz, the visit to Altoona, and his awful defensive performance was the last peice of the puzzle I needed to make a leap on Cruz. And that leap unfortunately was that he's not going to reach his ceiling, or anywhere close really.

He still might be a good player, but he's not going to be a star. That's where I'm at with him now. Much more skeptical, especially in the field, and in the clubhouse honestly.

Very interesting and enlightening read!

My only issue w/this take (on Keller) is his command. I don't care how much spin or break you have on a pitch. You can throw 100 all day long. If you can't consistently locate pitches, you're not going to be a SP very long.

I can't understand how anyone who's watched Keller thinks he's remotely close in terms of having even average command of his arsenal. Until I/we see an uptick there, he's going to struggle to be anything more than a #5/bullpen arm. And I do wonder how much more rope he gets in this department.

I watch Roansy pitch and so many of his offerings are right to the mitt. Literally, a laser. Same thing with Quintana, though he obviously doesn't have the power of RC. Watch those 2 guys and then watch Keller and it's night and day in terms of being able to harness the plus pitches they do have.

Again, I'm pulling for Mitch. I just wonder how much more he can improve given he's been up at the big league level for a while now. Command is a lot like throwing a football with accuracy. In a lot of cases you have it or you don't by a certain point and not a lot will change past a threshold.

I feel that Mitch Keller will have better command if he has good confidence. When he doesn't trust his stuff he throws too many uncompetitive pitches, nibbles too much, and doesn't get the calls because of that.

That's one thing I didn't get into, but I do feel like the command is average if he believes in himself.

I envision Mitch with a junk ballers deception & repertoire, married to a power pitcher's velocity & command. You won't find anything like that anywhere out there in the media that's strictly my take, right or wrong.
 
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I'm not singling anybody out.

In general, we (myself included) have a tendency for the reactionary take in a sport where small sample sizes ultimately tell you little.

It's just that Vogey went from one of our favorite players to half the forum all but calling for him to get DFA'd in like 3 weeks and that is batshit insane.

And I don't know who in particular has done it, but the people calling him names based on his weight need to go back to 5th grade where that material has a chance at playing.

Yeah I was never on that Vogel 🚂. But mos def I'm not giving him the benefit of a doubt right now because of past performance, and the glaring physical fitness issue that seriously limits present and future upside.

When he's playing good, you can overlook stuff. But ....
 
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Your experience with Cruz, the visit to Altoona, and his awful defensive performance was the last peice of the puzzle I needed to make a leap on Cruz. And that leap unfortunately was that he's not going to reach his ceiling, or anywhere close really.

He still might be a good player, but he's not going to be a star. That's where I'm at with him now. Much more skeptical, especially in the field, and in the clubhouse honestly.



I feel that Mitch Keller will have better command if he has good confidence. When he doesn't trust his stuff he throws too many uncompetitive pitches, nibbles too much, and doesn't get the calls because of that.

That's one thing I didn't get into, but I do feel like the command is average if he believes in himself.


I don't want to go that far on Cruz. His ceiling is enormous. It really is. You can see it clearly, relative to the other guys on the diamond with him. His issue, from my vantage point is consistency. It's being able to do plus stuff defensively (and to a lesser extend offensively) on a more repetitive basis. Some of that is experience, reps. Some of it is just natural ability and not to be forgotten is work ethic and how much you apply yourself to the craft.

I think Cruz can be a star. He does possess that potential. Certainly with the bat because of his sheer size and unusual power on pitches that most guys couldn't dream of even getting to.

I love what I've seen in terms of his patience at the plate the past 6-7 weeks. He's taking walks, and not chasing near as much. Pitchers are throwing him away, away, away. So he's the type of guy who's gong to need to be patient and take advantage of hitters counts and mistake pitches. His bat can comfortably produce 40 HR's or more at the ML level. He's not going to be a high average guy, but he really doesn't need to be. He can hit .240/.250 if he's taking a healthy amount of walks (which enhances his plus speed) and generating a higher end slugging %.
 
I don't want to go that far on Cruz. His ceiling is enormous. It really is. You can see it clearly, relative to the other guys on the diamond with him. His issue, from my vantage point is consistency. It's being able to do plus stuff defensively (and to a lesser extend offensively) on a more repetitive basis. Some of that is experience, reps. Some of it is just natural ability and not to be forgotten is work ethic and how much you apply yourself to the craft.

I think Cruz can be a star. He does possess that potential. Certainly with the bat because of his sheer size and unusual power on pitches that most guys couldn't dream of even getting to.

I love what I've seen in terms of his patience at the plate the past 6-7 weeks. He's taking walks, and not chasing near as much. Pitchers are throwing him away, away, away. So he's the type of guy who's gong to need to be patient and take advantage of hitters counts and mistake pitches. His bat can comfortably produce 40 HR's or more at the ML level. He's not going to be a high average guy, but he really doesn't need to be. He can hit .240/.250 if he's taking a healthy amount of walks (which enhances his plus speed) and generating a higher end slugging %.

Yeah I see all the same things. I also believe I've invested a lot of time in trying to accumulate knowledge to understand him as a human being a little. And I keep running into markers and flags year over year with him, and they've built up to the point I just don't think he's going to be a good teammate on a winning club. And so that's why I've cooled on his ceiling a lot. The implications of his personality showing through are that he's going to struggle with the mental game in MLB. And he's going to be a pain in the butt for his coach.

I'm not at all saying he's not going to be a Big League player. But I had such high high hopes. Like DJ still does.
 
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