Race to the bottom - Rebuild thread #2.

[Daisy Jane]

Burke is a lawyer , he is trained to know and respect the true power in words.

Lawyers are the masters of the "grey area".

I believe that BB had 100% control in the mandate ownership set and explained in his hiring interviews.

you are entitled to your opinion and it makes sense in a way - but the reason why i say that's "bull" is for the following.

it's been what now? 6 years ago, the city was ready for a rebuild. all reports say that even management was ready for a rebuild because the team that we were throwing on the ice was garbage, we weren't going ANYWHERE.

Along comes Burke, who comes in and everyone is all "Look what he did in Vancouver, look what he did in Anaheim, he's our saviour." and his first words? "I don't believe in drafting, it's a lottery, blah blah blah. We're going to build on the fly."

then he trades two firsts and a second for Kessel. regardless of what Kessel is and is not and he instantly helped (and I defended the move, AND all moves that he made, because hey - it's Burke, and he knows what he's doing, draft, schmaft, let's go!), the fact that NONIS said if it were up to him, (no offense to Kessel) he wouldn't have done it. He would have drafted instead.

the team he assembled (with Nonis's help - he did a lot of the leg work on a lot of the trade) was poop. then we did REALLY WELL and then collapsed spectacularly. Burke gets fired, Nonis gets hired and he only really let go of 3 people. [let's stop and think about that for a second. forget talent/numbers etc and let that sink in. for everyone screaming how they miss Burke and Burke would do something... this is still Burke's team. the only pieces that Nonis added was Bernier, Clarkson, Raymond & Bolland). so this is still VERY MUCH "Burke's" team.

how is that working for us?

and then he gets fired, goes to Calgary, a city very much like Toronto was 6 years ago, hating the "rebuild" word, making moves a year or two too late, but then totally accepting to having to rebuild and draft - and Burke is all like, "yeah. we totally have to build through the draft if we want to get anywhere" [and then insert your stupid macho bullcrap].

I was LIVID when I read that. I don't care what he and MLSE agreed to do. I would even have been pacified had Burke said "You know - I REALLY underestimated the situation in Toronto, I'm sorry, blah blah." but no he stands by ALL his moves (which was quoted in the paper).

so while I'm not necessarily FOR tanking - I'm AGAINST being in No Man's Land. the only three options for me is thus:

1: we win a guaranteed spot. [unless Tampa/Montreal totally utterly collapse and we start winning period - this isn't happening this season]

2: we go on a massive streak, re-claim WC#1 and build a big enough gap that we can win with ease [this isn't happening either, it's going to be a dog fight]

3: we slide into top five drafting.

I will always start the season with goal #1. but right ow we're in option 3.
us finishing 14th does NO one any favours.

so like I said: slide low, draft high, sign right - aim for the stars next year, and if it works, yay if not, let's slide low, draft high sign right.

 

[Highlander23]

This team can win a cup.


FORWARDS
Joffrey Lupul ($5.250m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Phil Kessel ($8.000m)
James Van Riemsdyk ($4.250m) / Tyler Bozak ($4.200m) / David Clarkson ($5.250m)
Josh Leivo ($0.793m) / Peter Holland ($0.851m) / Nikolai Kulemin ($3.200m)
Jerry D'Amigo ($0.851m) / Dave Bolland ($3.375m) / Carter Ashton ($0.851m)
Trevor Smith ($0.550m) /

DEFENSEMEN
Dion Phaneuf ($7.000m) / Tim Gleason ($4.000m)
Jake Gardiner ($0.827m) / Morgan Rielly ($0.894m)
Carl Gunnarsson ($3.150m) / Stuart Percy ($0.863m)
Paul Ranger ($1.000m) /

GOALTENDERS
Jonathan Bernier ($2.900m)
Drew MacIntyre ($1.200m)

------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2014-15)
SALARY CAP: $71,100,000; CAP PAYROLL: $66,253,375; BONUSES: $1,195,000
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $4,846,625

No that team will never win a cup. Put this in your head, if dion is our top D, we are ****ed, he should be a 3. Too late, we paid him to be our captain/leader, get ready for another 7 years of sucking

 

[realgoodleafs]

This team can win a cup.


FORWARDS
Joffrey Lupul ($5.250m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Phil Kessel ($8.000m)
James Van Riemsdyk ($4.250m) / Tyler Bozak ($4.200m) / David Clarkson ($5.250m)
Josh Leivo ($0.793m) / Peter Holland ($0.851m) / Nikolai Kulemin ($3.200m)
Jerry D'Amigo ($0.851m) / Dave Bolland ($3.375m) / Carter Ashton ($0.851m)
Trevor Smith ($0.550m) /

DEFENSEMEN
Dion Phaneuf ($7.000m) / Tim Gleason ($4.000m)
Jake Gardiner ($0.827m) / Morgan Rielly ($0.894m)
Carl Gunnarsson ($3.150m) / Stuart Percy ($0.863m)
Paul Ranger ($1.000m) /

GOALTENDERS
Jonathan Bernier ($2.900m)
Drew MacIntyre ($1.200m)

------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2014-15)
SALARY CAP: $71,100,000; CAP PAYROLL: $66,253,375; BONUSES: $1,195,000
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $4,846,625

You can win a cup with the worst defence in the league? Nice

 

[h2oloopan]

I am wondering if it's possible to trade Kessel to Colorado for one of their centers(Stastny or ROR) that is dispensable and their 1st. If they want to make a run in the playoff they may need an elite sniper like Kessel in their lineup, and their 1st will be low so they may want to do it.

If it works out that makes Kadri dispensable, package him to get us a 2-way winger or good d-man. Then tank the season and next (as people mentioned above, try to trade up in this draft to get Ekblad) to draft some decent players. After such a 2 years true rebuild then we are in a very good shape.

Keep Lupul to provide some veteran leadership and play him on the first line. Bozak is a very serviceable 2nd line center at his caphit. Maybe resign Bolland and McClement if the price is right, if not trade them away for picks as well. Then we can trade away unwanted pieces for picks e.g. Kulemin, Raymond, Franson, and let Franger walk. Pile up and draft like crazy in the following two drafts. If we can get McDavid that's nice if not we will still get some decent players.

Just call up Marlies to fill the holes, develop our young players while tanking at the same time.

Then we have something like

JVR - Stastny/ROR - Lupul
2-way winger - Bozak - Clarkson
Marlie - Bolland - Marlie
Marlie - McClement - Marlie

Phaneuf Gunnerson
Gardiner Gleason
Rielly Ekblad

Not too bad for a rebuilding team. Try to get another center in 2015, then we can push Stastny/ROR to 2nd line and Bozak to 3rd line in the future, strength down the middle is always good.

 

[Highlander23]

I don't know how should i say it but we will never be a contender if kessel is our best F and dion is our best D. Its nuts to me that managers who are paid millions are not aware of this **** yet

 

[hotpaws]

Burke is a lawyer , he is trained to know and respect the true power in words.

Lawyers are the masters of the "grey area".

I believe that BB had 100% control in the mandate ownership set and explained in his hiring interviews.

I don't think there was any mandate by TPP and I also don't think Burke came in originally thinking he would trade picks to try some ****ed up accelerated retool . I think he pulled a rookie mistake by believing his first preseason here was an indication the team was better than it was and that's why he dealt the picks for Kessel .

He originally turned down Kabs and the 7th for Kessel at the draft and only pulled the trigger on the deal while the team was having a great preseason . He traded Antro and Moore for picks at his first t/d unlike trading Poni for what he called a near ready prospect in Caputi after the PK deal because he said he had no desire to wait until the drafts picks developed .

Basically I believe he went into damage control after trading the picks and finishing 29th and would spin any bs that would pop into his head to try to buy him time while he tried to improve the team .

 

[Mess]

Leafs lost to Carolina and Washington over the course of 2 days and in the process watched 5 teams NYR, Washington, Carolina, Ottawa and NJ pass them in the overall standings.

The result moved them from a wild card team to 9th from the bottom overall for a draft pick improvement.

 

[asdf]

you are entitled to your opinion and it makes sense in a way - but the reason why i say that's "bull" is for the following.

it's been what now? 6 years ago, the city was ready for a rebuild. all reports say that even management was ready for a rebuild because the team that we were throwing on the ice was garbage, we weren't going ANYWHERE.

Along comes Burke, who comes in and everyone is all "Look what he did in Vancouver, look what he did in Anaheim, he's our saviour." and his first words? "I don't believe in drafting, it's a lottery, blah blah blah. We're going to build on the fly."

then he trades two firsts and a second for Kessel. regardless of what Kessel is and is not and he instantly helped (and I defended the move, AND all moves that he made, because hey - it's Burke, and he knows what he's doing, draft, schmaft, let's go!), the fact that NONIS said if it were up to him, (no offense to Kessel) he wouldn't have done it. He would have drafted instead.

the team he assembled (with Nonis's help - he did a lot of the leg work on a lot of the trade) was poop. then we did REALLY WELL and then collapsed spectacularly. Burke gets fired, Nonis gets hired and he only really let go of 3 people. [let's stop and think about that for a second. forget talent/numbers etc and let that sink in. for everyone screaming how they miss Burke and Burke would do something... this is still Burke's team. the only pieces that Nonis added was Bernier, Clarkson, Raymond & Bolland). so this is still VERY MUCH "Burke's" team.

how is that working for us?

and then he gets fired, goes to Calgary, a city very much like Toronto was 6 years ago, hating the "rebuild" word, making moves a year or two too late, but then totally accepting to having to rebuild and draft - and Burke is all like, "yeah. we totally have to build through the draft if we want to get anywhere" [and then insert your stupid macho bullcrap].

I was LIVID when I read that. I don't care what he and MLSE agreed to do. I would even have been pacified had Burke said "You know - I REALLY underestimated the situation in Toronto, I'm sorry, blah blah." but no he stands by ALL his moves (which was quoted in the paper).

We always hear how all of Leafs Nation is so patient and they were ready for a slow, patient rebuild, but I don't buy it. Case in point, look at the fanbase right now, ready to blow everything up.

Now, I know some people will say it's because of the Kessel deal, fair enough. But would things be that much better with Seguin? I have a hard time believing it. He's basically the center version of Kessel.

In terms of ownership being prepared for a rebuild, I buy it even less. They didn't interview a bunch of candidates before Burke came in with an amazing presentation telling them he doesn't need a long rebuild. They went after him likely with the intention of turning the team around quickly. They did the same thing going after Colangelo to run the Raptors.

Given that we now know that the OTPP was looking to sell their stake, it makes perfect sense. If Burke was able to do what he did in Anaheim and Colangelo was able to do what he did in Phoenix, the OTPP likely would have been able to extract a higher selling price.

Regarding the things Burke said, he did say it was going to take some time, and he even said he underestimated how long it would take here. I'm not sure what you're looking for. Would any GM not stand by their moves, especially when the players are still on the team?

Also, he never said he doesn't believe in drafting. He said he doesn't want to do a Pittsburgh rebuild, and you know what, he has a point. It's because of the Penguins that so many people are conditioned to believe that rebuilds go smoothly and perfectly. Draft top-3 for a couple of years and then get ready to contend.

I get the feeling that's the only way things will work out here, is if everything goes almost perfectly. Otherwise the fan revolt will start again calling to blow everything up.

 

[achtungbaby]

True.

Use Reimer, 1st and more as trading chip to get that #2 pick and get Ekblad.

Oilers can't go with that goaltending, need ready bodies and they also get a good pick.

Seems like a great trade for both teams.

Problem here is that I doubt Edmonton sees Reimer as true number 1 goalie, hell even our own coach doesn't. The Oilers also need a number one defensemen and another top 2 centre. Yes they need a goalie as well, but I think it's going to take an offer they couldn't refuse for them to move the pick at this point. If weber is available, they use that pick in a package to get him.

 

[Stephen]

I couldn't give a damn about RC but these players need to compete harder regardless of who's coach and we have way too many soft players regardless of who behind the bench .

What's funny is these players are playing like they have a Stanley Cup hangover... Their attitude is like "Yeah we should start trying soon."

 

[Highlander23]

My own opinion, our team is build from leftovers, the supposed core (lol) is dion, kessel, lupul, gardiner, jvr, bolland, bernier. guess what, all of those players came from winning teams (outside calgary) If these winning organisations saw something wrong with these players, then it would have been a red flag for us. and guess what ? they were absolutely right, all of the players, have at least one big flaw

 

[Pi]

What's funny is these players are playing like they have a Stanley Cup hangover... Their attitude is like "Yeah we should start trying soon."

Nobody on this team cares, except the goalies, the young kids like D'Amigo and Rielly, and a few players like McClement, Bolland etc.

Rest of the team is just happy collecting their paycheques and getting a couple of wins every 10 games with their lacklustre effort.

I can't believe we have invested 25M dollars in players like Kessel, Phaneuf, Clarkson, Lupul

Hockey gods hate us.

We're a cap team that plays worse than the teams hanging around near the cap floor.

 

[Daisy Jane]

My own opinion, our team is build from leftovers, the supposed core (lol) is dion, kessel, lupul, gardiner, jvr, bolland, bernier. guess what, all of those players came from winning teams (outside calgary) If these winning organisations saw something wrong with these players, then it would have been a red flag for us. and guess what ? they were absolutely right, all of the players, have at least one big flaw

see i think that's where you are wrong.
i bet you internally they feel that

gardiner, jvr, bernier, rielly kadri (to an extent give or take rumors) are the core

everyone else is supporting core 1

then they sign smart and bring in older supporting core 2

should we still struggle - you trade supporting core 1 bring in picks and more prospects and keep going.

and this nonsense that we take in "bad players" vs "trade good players" is just that. the BEST trades are good hockey trades meaning it benefits BOTH teams. it just doesn't mean "oh they are flawed, oh! we'll take them!!"

 

[Highlander23]

see i think that's where you are wrong.
i bet you internally they feel that

gardiner, jvr, bernier, rielly kadri (to an extent give or take rumors) are the core

everyone else is supporting core 1

then they sign smart and bring in older supporting core 2

should we still struggle - you trade supporting core 1 bring in picks and more prospects and keep going.

and this nonsense that we take in "bad players" vs "trade good players" is just that. the BEST trades are good hockey trades meaning it benefits BOTH teams. it just doesn't mean "oh they are flawed, oh! we'll take them!!"

Be realistic here, gardiner and kadri are closer to being a trade chip than being part of the core

A core is constitued from players who are signed long term and asked to do the heavy load of the on-ice duties

You don't sign kessel, dion, clarkson, bozak to those contracts if they are not part of the supposed core (anyway, with those players we will continue to suck for the forseable future)

 

[21JVR*]

I am wondering if it's possible to trade Kessel to Colorado for one of their centers(Stastny or ROR) that is dispensable and their 1st. If they want to make a run in the playoff they may need an elite sniper like Kessel in their lineup, and their 1st will be low so they may want to do it.

If it works out that makes Kadri dispensable, package him to get us a 2-way winger or good d-man. Then tank the season and next (as people mentioned above, try to trade up in this draft to get Ekblad) to draft some decent players. After such a 2 years true rebuild then we are in a very good shape.

Keep Lupul to provide some veteran leadership and play him on the first line. Bozak is a very serviceable 2nd line center at his caphit. Maybe resign Bolland and McClement if the price is right, if not trade them away for picks as well. Then we can trade away unwanted pieces for picks e.g. Kulemin, Raymond, Franson, and let Franger walk. Pile up and draft like crazy in the following two drafts. If we can get McDavid that's nice if not we will still get some decent players.

Just call up Marlies to fill the holes, develop our young players while tanking at the same time.

Then we have something like

JVR - Stastny/ROR - Lupul
2-way winger - Bozak - Clarkson
Marlie - Bolland - Marlie
Marlie - McClement - Marlie

Phaneuf Gunnerson
Gardiner Gleason
Rielly Ekblad

Not too bad for a rebuilding team. Try to get another center in 2015, then we can push Stastny/ROR to 2nd line and Bozak to 3rd line in the future, strength down the middle is always good.

If we are trading Kessel to Colorado, I would accept no less than Landeskog and a prospect pick.

 

[realgoodleafs]

If we are trading Kessel to Colorado, I would accept no less than Landeskog and a prospect pick.

You wouldn't get Landeskog alone for Kessel. They'd laugh and hang up.

 

[hotpaws]

We always hear how all of Leafs Nation is so patient and they were ready for a slow, patient rebuild, but I don't buy it. Case in point, look at the fanbase right now, ready to blow everything up.

Now, I know some people will say it's because of the Kessel deal, fair enough. But would things be that much better with Seguin? I have a hard time believing it. He's basically the center version of Kessel.

In terms of ownership being prepared for a rebuild, I buy it even less. They didn't interview a bunch of candidates before Burke came in with an amazing presentation telling them he doesn't need a long rebuild. They went after him likely with the intention of turning the team around quickly. They did the same thing going after Colangelo to run the Raptors.

Given that we now know that the OTPP was looking to sell their stake, it makes perfect sense. If Burke was able to do what he did in Anaheim and Colangelo was able to do what he did in Phoenix, the OTPP likely would have been able to extract a higher selling price.

Regarding the things Burke said, he did say it was going to take some time, and he even said he underestimated how long it would take here. I'm not sure what you're looking for. Would any GM not stand by their moves, especially when the players are still on the team?

Also, he never said he doesn't believe in drafting. He said he doesn't want to do a Pittsburgh rebuild, and you know what, he has a point. It's because of the Penguins that so many people are conditioned to believe that rebuilds go smoothly and perfectly. Draft top-3 for a couple of years and then get ready to contend.

I get the feeling that's the only way things will work out here, is if everything goes almost perfectly. Otherwise the fan revolt will start again calling to blow everything up.

Leaf fans would have been patient 5 plus years ago but now they're pissed because they feel this team is starting to look like it needs to be rebuilt again . Only a homer would believe this team wouldn't have been better off with Seguin/Hamilton than with Kessel .

OTTP wasn't looking to sell when Burke and BC were hired and Peddie was looking for a big name GM after hiring rookies with brutal results . Burke was the one big name GM who choose to come here but Peddie would just have been as happy if not more with Holland or Rutherford .

Burke would say anything depending on the situation regardless of whether it contradicted his previous statements and a guy like him would never admit to making a mistake without shifting the blame for the mistake elsewhere .

Burke said he wasn't interested in doing a draft rebuild , I believe that was after he traded the picks however .

 

[Schennanigans]

Monahan still has a lot more to prove before he's called a #1 centre.

 

[Mess]

Monahan still has a lot more to prove before he's called a #1 centre.

18 year olds with 38 games of NHL experience usually do.

12 goals as one of the youngest players in the league in those games is certainly off to a good start proving it.

 

[TankNationTillDeath]

The saddest part of all...

The year will be 2021. Leafs fans will be elated with the Phaneuf contract coming off the books. The glory days far behind, talks of '67 have only now become legend. Leafs will not have experienced a second round in the playoffs since the year 2002, nearly 20 years.

With Clarkson's contract freshly off the books, and Philburt's only 1 season away, the team finally scouts their 1C going first overall in the draft, born in 2003, from Sweden.

FINALLY, a true rebuild! Leafs fans exude and throw their hats in the air as they finally receive the promise made in 2008...

Morgan Reilly will be 25 and made the 19th captain in franchise history. Leafs will be searching for a young goalie to replace the aging Bernier. Phaneuf will be left unsigned, and will finally be able to lead something within his ability; the free agent list.

Mark the date on your calendars folks, Tank Nation Till Death.

 

[Mess]

You wouldn't get Landeskog alone for Kessel. They'd laugh and hang up.

Avs aren't trading their 21 year old captain any time soon.

In fact Colorado should be a good role model demonstrating drafting success with high picks building your foundation through the draft.

Avs are one of the youngest teams in the NHL and play at the Cap floor with one of the lowest caps (29th) and their 61 points place them 6th overall in the NHL standings.

If the Leafs had Landeskog and 3 young centers (22 and younger) in Duchene and ROR and Nathan MacKinnon right now, we would be looking to have a bright future ahead.

 

[Durrr]

The year will be 2021. Leafs fans will be elated with the Phaneuf contract coming off the books. The glory days far behind, talks of '67 have only now become legend. Leafs will not have experienced a second round in the playoffs since the year 2002, nearly 20 years.

With Clarkson's contract freshly off the books, and Philburt's only 1 season away, the team finally scouts their 1C going first overall in the draft, born in 2003, from Sweden.

FINALLY, a true rebuild! Leafs fans exude and throw their hats in the air as they finally receive the promise made in 2008...

Morgan Reilly will be 25 and made the 19th captain in franchise history. Leafs will be searching for a young goalie to replace the aging Bernier. Phaneuf will be left unsigned, and will finally be able to lead something within his ability; the free agent list.

Mark the date on your calendars folks, Tank Nation Till Death.

LOL cool

 

[Kelly]

The year will be 2021. Leafs fans will be elated with the Phaneuf contract coming off the books. The glory days far behind, talks of '67 have only now become legend. Leafs will not have experienced a second round in the playoffs since the year 2002, nearly 20 years.

With Clarkson's contract freshly off the books, and Philburt's only 1 season away, the team finally scouts their 1C going first overall in the draft, born in 2003, from Sweden.

FINALLY, a true rebuild! Leafs fans exude and throw their hats in the air as they finally receive the promise made in 2008...

Morgan Reilly will be 25 and made the 19th captain in franchise history. Leafs will be searching for a young goalie to replace the aging Bernier. Phaneuf will be left unsigned, and will finally be able to lead something within his ability; the free agent list.

Mark the date on your calendars folks, Tank Nation Till Death.

Doc, is that you?

 

[Stephen]

Be realistic here, gardiner and kadri are closer to being a trade chip than being part of the core

A core is constitued from players who are signed long term and asked to do the heavy load of the on-ice duties

You don't sign kessel, dion, clarkson, bozak to those contracts if they are not part of the supposed core (anyway, with those players we will continue to suck for the forseable future)

Gardiner and Kadri are in a precarious point in development. Neither are particularly "young" as far as being non established NHLers with potential. Gardiner and Kadri are older than Hall, RHN and Yakupov as struggling kids on the Oilers and they don't seem to take their lessons to heart. By the end of next year they could be either back on track or just be written off as average NHL players.

 

[Daisy Jane]

I always ask this - don't a LOT of defensemen take a WHILE to really 'pop'? i mean next year, Gards will be what? 24?

I would worry that Naz is the one in more trouble because forwards usually start to shine around 23-24 right?