Quinn Hughes is having a Hart caliber season

[DEANYOUNGBLOOD17]

one of your team best players hired a russian hooker from the russian mob and refused to pay up during the playoffs.

Typo …?

Did you mean to say Payoffs?

 

[benfranklin]

some notable names are being sheltered in the top 20
Funny I don’t see the guy whose name is in the title on this list.
Oops
View attachment 975464

Youre using archaic charts here. You still havent responded to the PK usage or this chart. Dude gets sheltered minutes and is used offensively only, which is FINE. Dude is helping the Canucsk put up points, but stop pretending like hes a great dman. He is Karlssonesque but even worse defensively because he is never used in his own zone.

The PK thing isn't all that important to me; if Vancouver has other guys who can effectively do it so Hughes isn't playing 30 mins a game, so be it. Canucks PK is 10th in the league so they aren't doing bad without him. However if he wants to win any trophies this season, he's gotta stop getting injured. If he's playing so much it's putting extra strain on him then getting injured is almost inevitable. Doesn't matter how good you are; if you're on the sidelines you aren't winning Hart/Norris.

They are using him in the best spot they can. No one is blaming the Canucks for that, but when the top 45/50 dmen in TOI all PK, we are saying Quinn has an advantage being used more often in offensive roles than literally every one of his peers (except Bouchard and Theodore). He is used in hs own zone as little as possible. Its strategic by the Canucks, but obviously feeds the LOL Norris narrative pretty easily here.

Makar, Werenski and Fox are being used on the PK and against other teams McDavids, while hughes doesnt see PK time and is going against Henrique for example.

 

[Quinning]

I think it's physically impossible for a thread about Hughes to not become a thread about how Makar is better, and vice versa.

 

[benfranklin]

I think it's physically impossible for a thread about Hughes to not become a thread about how Makar is better, and vice versa.

Few here are saying that. We all are giving overwhelming evidence of Hughes's usage not on the PK at all and then against the weakest competition possible. We are saying that Werenski, Makar, Fox, Sergachev, Sider, Josi, Heiskanen, Faber, Toews, Parayko, Carlson, Mcavoy, Provarov, etc etc etc are all better at actual defense and well rounded defensemen.

 

[LemonSauceD]

Few here are saying that. We all are giving overwhelming evidence of Hughes's usage not on the PK at all and then against the weakest competition possible. We are saying that Werenski, Makar, Fox, Sergachev, Sider, Josi, Heiskanen, Faber, Toews, Parayko, Carlson, Mcavoy, Provarov, etc etc etc are all better at actual defense and well rounded defensemen.

Tells me all I need to know about your lack of hockey knowledge. It’s okay, stick to watching soccer or cricket or whatever easy to understand sport there is.

 

[wintersej]

...and they're way more important to their teams than Werenski and Makar are to theirs.

Makar famously has really bad stats when MacKinnon isn't on the ice, and Werenski's stats are dependant on the Monahan line, though not nearly to the same extent.

Talking about MacKinnon is valid, but let’s not pretend Monahan is something he isn’t.

 

[bringbacktheskate604]

Few here are saying that. We all are giving overwhelming evidence of Hughes's usage not on the PK at all and then against the weakest competition possible. We are saying that Werenski, Makar, Fox, Sergachev, Sider, Josi, Heiskanen, Faber, Toews, Parayko, Carlson, Mcavoy, Provarov, etc etc etc are all better at actual defense and well rounded defensemen.

I could care less what your charts say, as someone who watches every single game I can assure you he is not sheltered at all and plays against teams best players.

Of course when there's an offensive FO they will throw him out there, he also often has extended shifts especially when Hronek was out so of course he's not just playing against one specific line.
As for the PK why the hell would we have him doing that when our Dcorp has some of the bigger more elite pkers and when we had our worst group earlier in the year, a few of them were only good doing just that like Deharnais and Juulson.
As for the Avs look at their Dcorp, they literally have no choice but to use Makar and from the 40 odd games I've watched he would probably be better off not having to.

Quinn averages 27 mins a night without killing penalties, he is not hidden or sheltered and if you were to actually watch him you would clearly see him going against the best and doing a fuc*ing elite job at it.

I try not to shit on other players to defend another but Makar gets a pass from many except ironically based Avs fans who fully admit his defensive game has not been on point the way it was three seasons ago.

Lastly I will say anyone who has to use graphs and shit stats that can often be taken out of context that clearly don't match the eye test are just grasping at straws.

There isn't a Dman and maybe player in general that tilts the ice like Quinn does and it's not because he's being used against the lesser players, my God try and watch him because you clearly don't.
Do better!

 

[tanti9]

I believe that Quinn will get some recognition for the Hart but know it is unlikely unless he is a huge monster in the last 27 games. This 2 week break may allow Hughes to reset after all the emotional stress that he has endured the first 50 games and literally carrying the Canucks to a playoff spot. Also I love Makar but Hughes is pulling away (own thought) as the top dman in the NHL. I believe we can have 2 generational dman at once and let these 2 battle for years to come. Werenski and maybe eventually Hutson will push both Makar and Hughes (Werenski definetely has a case this year).

 

[Breakers]

Youre using archaic charts here. You still havent responded to the PK usage or this chart. Dude gets sheltered minutes and is used offensively only, which is FINE. Dude is helping the Canucsk put up points, but stop pretending like hes a great dman. He is Karlssonesque but even worse defensively because he is never used in his own zone.

View attachment 975541


They are using him in the best spot they can. No one is blaming the Canucks for that, but when the top 45/50 dmen in TOI all PK, we are saying Quinn has an advantage being used more often in offensive roles than literally every one of his peers (except Bouchard and Theodore). He is used in hs own zone as little as possible. Its strategic by the Canucks, but obviously feeds the LOL Norris narrative pretty easily here.

Makar, Werenski and Fox are being used on the PK and against other teams McDavids, while hughes doesnt see PK time and is going against Henrique for example.

Nope sorry

Those are correct. those are the sheltered defenseman, learn to keep up.

And what happens when you filter by all strengths?

Hughes is up there for o zone starts. Arguing over who as at 65% and who is at 63% is dumb.

Why include all strengths together?

You isolate for 5v5 play
Pretty simple to understand

 

[Toby91ca]

Tells me all I need to know about your lack of hockey knowledge. It’s okay, stick to watching soccer or cricket or whatever easy to understand sport there is.

What does this even mean? I have no idea what the stats show in terms of level of competition he is being put out on the ice against, but if there are stats that show they keep him away from the other team's star players (again, not sure there are actual stats that show it), than what does this have to do with hockey knowledge?

Put it this way, Lidstrom what one of the top choices for his team in all scenarios (offensively and defensively)....if there is a Dzone faceoff and other team is putting their star players out there, Lidstrom is going out there, no question.....not sure this is the case with Hughes.

 

[Grifter3511]

Few here are saying that. We all are giving overwhelming evidence of Hughes's usage not on the PK at all and then against the weakest competition possible. We are saying that Werenski, Makar, Fox, Sergachev, Sider, Josi, Heiskanen, Faber, Toews, Parayko, Carlson, Mcavoy, Provarov, etc etc etc are all better at actual defense and well rounded defensemen.

A good post demonstrating how important the eye test can actually be. Im a bigger Rangers fan than Canucks. They're the two teams I've watched more than any other this year. Fox is hot f***ing garbage compared to Hughes at all facets of the game. Just because the stats say he's getting deployed more in certain situations doesn't mean he's actually doing anything useful in those situations. I'm not going to speak to the rest of the players, but the one I am most familiar with has absolutely not been a better defenseman and well rounded player than Hughes. Makes me wonder how many more on that list are in the same boat.

 

[LemonSauceD]

What does this even mean? I have no idea what the stats show in terms of level of competition he is being put out on the ice against, but if there are stats that show they keep him away from the other team's star players (again, not sure there are actual stats that show it), than what does this have to do with hockey knowledge?

Put it this way, Lidstrom what one of the top choices for his team in all scenarios (offensively and defensively)....if there is a Dzone faceoff and other team is putting their star players out there, Lidstrom is going out there, no question.....not sure this is the case with Hughes.

Because it’s literally not true. I’ve asked him to show what evidence you have to support that and he ignores it because he can’t.

 

[Ncit3]

I could care less what your charts say, as someone who watches every single game I can assure you he is not sheltered at all and plays against teams best players.

So firstly, did you mean to say you could care less? Do you actually care?

Secondly, we’re supposed to take your word over solid hard evidence collected by the NHL?

I’m sure some analytics department will be busting down your door soon to be hiring you.

Do better!

 

[Ncit3]

Because it’s literally not true. I’ve asked him to show what evidence you have to support that and he ignores it because he can’t.

I mean I can give more data. Here's just a comparison against a team both have played a fair bit this year in Edmonton. As you can see the most common player that Makar is on the ice with is Connor McDavid. The most common for Hughes? Connor Brown. All three of Hughes most matched up against opponents are Edmonton's 3rd line. While Makar is oft matched against Connor McDavid, Zach Hyman, and Leon Draisaitl (one of the best two way players in the game). I will give you the sites so you can look at his matchups against OTHER players on other teams. But Quinn Hughes is sheltered. There is factual proof that he is sheltered. Does this make him bad? HELL NO. Does it weaken his Norris and Hart case? I'd say yes.

https://www.naturalstattrick.com/pl...sit=5v5&stdoi=std&rate=n&v=o&playerid=8480800

https://www.naturalstattrick.com/pl...sit=5v5&stdoi=std&rate=n&v=o&playerid=8480069

(These sites might take a minute to populate, so wait for them)

 

[tucker3434]

Nope sorry

Those are correct. those are the sheltered defenseman, learn to keep up.


Why include all strengths together?

You isolate for 5v5 play
Pretty simple to understand

Because PKing is the toughest deployment you can get. If you want to ignore it (because your guy doesn’t do it), you’re making a dishonest argument.

 

[Breakers]

Because PKing is the toughest deployment you can get. If you want to ignore it (because your guy doesn’t do it), you’re making a dishonest argument.

You dont include aspects like that together in the same sample

everybody knows that

How is it dishonest when you just isolate for 5v5? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

 

[LemonSauceD]

I mean I can give more data. Here's just a comparison against a team both have played a fair bit this year in Edmonton. As you can see the most common player that Makar is on the ice with is Connor McDavid. The most common for Hughes? Connor Brown. All three of Hughes most matched up against opponents are Edmonton's 3rd line. While Makar is oft matched against Connor McDavid, Zach Hyman, and Leon Draisaitl (one of the best two way players in the game). I will give you the sites so you can look at his matchups against OTHER players on other teams. But Quinn Hughes is sheltered. There is factual proof that he is sheltered. Does this make him bad? HELL NO. Does it weaken his Norris and Hart case? I'd say yes.

https://www.naturalstattrick.com/pl...sit=5v5&stdoi=std&rate=n&v=o&playerid=8480800

https://www.naturalstattrick.com/pl...sit=5v5&stdoi=std&rate=n&v=o&playerid=8480069

(These sites might take a minute to populate, so wait for them)

McDavid was absent for a game against the Canucks, Draisaitl played 19 and 21 minutes in 2 of the games against the Canucks this year vs Hughes 25-26 minutes. Canucks were also blown out twice against the Oilers which definitely changes line deployment and matchups.

I mean if you do the same thing for last year, using the Oilers as an example, Makar played 18 minutes against Draisaitl and Bouchard, 17 against McDavid.

 

[Ncit3]

McDavid was absent for a game against the Canucks, Draisaitl played 19 and 21 minutes in 2 of the games against the Canucks this year vs Hughes 25-26 minutes. Canucks were also blown out twice against the Oilers which definitely changes line deployment and matchups.

I mean if you do the same thing for last year, using the Oilers as an example, Makar played 18 minutes against Draisaitl and Bouchard, 17 against McDavid.

We're talking about 2024-2025. I'm not trying to represent their entire bodies of work with this data. The thread is called Hart Caliber Season. I was also using Edmonton because both teams have played them three times this season while on average Hughes will play Edmonton more often than Colorado, due to both being in the Pacific, and therefore don't give a completely equal TOI number.

 

[tucker3434]

You dont include aspects like that together in the same sample

everybody knows that

How is it dishonest when you just isolate for 5v5? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Here’s your quote:

some notable names are being sheltered in the top 20
Funny I don’t see the guy whose name is in the title on this list.
Oops
View attachment 975464

Hughes is 57% at 5v5 so only 3 points out of 20th to begin with. When you factor in PK, the least sheltered ice time available, suddenly Hughes hops right into the top 20.

Hughes gets plenty of favorable ice time. Pretending that he doesn’t is dishonest.

 

[benfranklin]

Tells me all I need to know about your lack of hockey knowledge. It’s okay, stick to watching soccer or cricket or whatever easy to understand sport there is.

Lol did you ignore the chart posted only 2 pages ago?

 

[Breakers]

Here’s your quote:



Hughes is 57% at 5v5 so only 3 points out of 20th to begin with. When you factor in PK, the least sheltered ice time available, suddenly Hughes hops right into the top 20.

Hughes gets plenty of favorable ice time. Pretending that he doesn’t is dishonest.

Hey those are the top 20
Not my fault you can’t handle facts

 

[geebster]

Lol did you ignore the chart posted only 2 pages ago?View attachment 975562

Was discussed ad nauseam earlier in the thread. Despite him having a "worse" ratio of usage he ends up playing more high quality of competition minutes per game 5 on 5 than any comparable player. His usage is flat, he's put out there against anyone and everyone, theres only so many minutes in a hockey game though. Ekholm plays 4 seconds a game more against top quality competition than Quinn Hughes does. No one would argue Ekholm is sheltered.

If Ekholm matched up against top lines exactly as much as he does now and then just played more minutes against middle/low quality and dominated that time, would you say he's now sheltered? Because that'd be Hughes' deployment 5 on 5.

This all comes down to the mistake of using ratios alone and not looking at raw numbers. If someone scores 2 goals per game are they better than someone that scores 1 goal per game? What if the first guy played only 2 games all year and the second guy did it a whole season?

Hughes has flat deployment and plays lots of 5 on 5 minutes. His ratio is worse than guys that play less 5 on 5 (due to PK etc) but he plays more high danger minutes than Makar does even with that ratio.

That isn't sheltered.

 

[DrunkTurtle]

Still take Makar no questions asked.

Delivers in any situation. Has dominated multiple playoff series. A constant goal threat. So damn consistent, will be his 5th straight Norris nomination.

Hughes is a beauty though.

 

[benfranklin]

Was discussed ad nauseam earlier in the thread. Despite him having a "worse" ratio of usage he ends up playing more high quality of competition minutes per game 5 on 5 than any comparable player. His usage is flat, he's put out there against anyone and everyone, theres only so many minutes in a hockey game though. Ekholm plays 4 seconds a game more against top quality competition than Quinn Hughes does. No one would argue Ekholm is sheltered.

If Ekholm matched up against top lines exactly as much as he does now and then just played more minutes against middle/low quality and dominated that time, would you say he's now sheltered? Because that'd be Hughes' deployment 5 on 5.

This all comes down to the mistake of using ratios alone and not looking at raw numbers. If someone scores 2 goals per game are they better than someone that scores 1 goal per game? What if the first guy played only 2 games all year and the second guy did it a whole season?

Hughes has flat deployment and plays lots of 5 on 5 minutes. His ratio is worse than guys that play less 5 on 5 (due to PK etc) but he plays more high danger minutes than Makar does even with that ratio.

That isn't sheltered.

That simply isnt true. You're making up stuff at this point. And why are you bringing up Ekholm? That is a completely different scenario on a team with insane analytics and possession numbers.

Shea Theodore is the only D man in the top 50 of TOI who has less PK time than Hughes.
He only takes D zone faceoffs if Petey/Miller are there to "shelter" him.
He only takes O Zone faceoffs with the 3rd-4th line.
He is consistently used against the weakest matchups possible (ie RNH/Henrique instead of Leon/McD)

This is the definition of sheltered. I dont care about Makar. Compare the other 49 top 50 D and he is lowest in actual defense played and lowest against high end competition.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Lol did you ignore the chart posted only 2 pages ago?

I know I'm quoting this out of context but i can't help but LOL at how analytics in general has transformed hockey discussions.

"Have you seen MY chart!?"
"Yeah your chart sucks, look at THIS chart"

Rinse/repeat.