Quebec City trying to keep the flame alive

[tucker3434]

There's no doubt they have the fans, and I'm sure they'll turn out for events like these. But with what franchises cost these days, I don't think it makes sense to go into small markets anymore. That's not Bettman's fault. I'm not sure any ownership groups would even love the idea of putting a billion dollar franchise in a city of under a million people.

The Jets were absolute snipers. Perfect situation for them with the cost of the Thrashers being so low and having no place to go. I think they're the last new small market team we'll see.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

But they’ll let the Yotes play in a 5000 seat college rink that they can’t even remotely sell out and continue to ‘assist’ the franchise.

Spare me.

That…speaks volume about what NHL owners think about QC more then anything.

 

[Smirnov2Chistov]

All the moves Bettman made have been undone with the only exception being the Nordiques. He clearly has a grudge with QC and from where I sit it might be because giving the Nordiques back would complete undoing all the moves he did.

I wonder what the sentiment of Bettman would be if he were Canadian. Most Canadian cities (arguably) cannot support NHL franchises. The passion is there, but what else is there?

Anyone who believes Gary Bettman alone runs NHL like a dictator should not be allowed to post here.

THIS!

The Jets were absolute snipers. Perfect situation for them with the cost of the Thrashers being so low and having no place to go. I think they're the last new small market team we'll see.

Do you think Atlanta could potentially snipe the Jets back? The attendance issues are growing more and more concerning..

 

[tucker3434]

Do you think Atlanta could potentially snipe the Jets back? The attendance issues are growing more and more concerning..

No, I don't think TNSE has any desire to sell since their other investments in Winnipeg are buoyed by the Jets.

I expect potential QC ownership groups are keeping an eye on it and I doubt it's making them more likely to write the big check.

 

[Roadrage]

IMHO, I don't think the NHL really wants a team back in QC (same with Hartford) and I can understand why business wise. The only way they will ever get a team back is another Jets2.0/Thrashers situation. A perfect storm of circumstances needs to happen. Me personally, I would love to see the Nordiques and Whalers back but I'm a realist and $$$ talks.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Its a free country right and your words alone speak to dictatorship,friend

Libelous speech is not protected under the First Amendment. Propagating easily disprovable falsehoods about Bettman hating QC could roughly be put into that category.

But they’ll let the Yotes play in a 5000 seat college rink that they can’t even remotely sell out and continue to ‘assist’ the franchise.

Spare me.

Tickets are sold out in Tempe so no idea where you're getting that idea from. Actual butts in seats is different and don't pretend it isn't.

And if you're going to attack that angle, you better be willing to go after every single Canadian team which has had trouble at one point or another filling out their bottom bowl over the last 15 years. And last time I checked, that was all seven of them.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Do you think Atlanta could potentially snipe the Jets back? The attendance issues are growing more and more concerning..

Not zero, but vanishingly small.

I don't wish to completely minimize the issue of Winnipeg's attendance. I'm sure it's something the Jets are concerned about. But the attendance issue isn't "growing more and more concerning" - as I understand it attendance has been picking up (it helps the team is doing well).

What's more lots of teams have attendance issues early in the season.

Plus the Jets are more than just a single hockey team - they're part of a bunch of businesses and properties that are invested in downtown Winnipeg.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Yeah best chance is for some crazy Atlanta situation to happen and that's low

 

[Garbageyuk]

It would be a challenge for sure. By then, the Concorde will make a return, getting players from Europe to NA in ~4 hours!

Current Geo-politics dictate no Russia, but by the time this ever happens, hopefully they are back in the good graces of the rest of the world.

Would be super cool to see some imagined names and logo designs for some of the potential Euro teams.

1-Stockholm SPIRIT
2-Gothenberg FIGHTING BEAVERS
3-Helsinki HELLCATS
4-Zurich MOUNTAINEERS
5-Prague CITADEL
6-Berlin ICE BEARS
7-Cologne FOXES
8-Munich LIONS
9-Vienna ORCHESTRA
10-Copenhagen GREAT DANES
11-London ROYALS
12-Paris CATACOMBS

Awful lmao

 

[Yukon Joe]

Yeah best chance is for some crazy Atlanta situation to happen and that's low

I'm going to keep banging this drum.

It's unlikely but not impossible. I mean Arizona could completely blow up at any time - playing at Mullett is not sustainable on the long or even medium term.

But the absolute #1-with-a-bullet goal of ownership is to maintain franchise value. And franchise value is based on what similar franchises have sold for in the past. So if Arizona needs to move, the question is who out there can both provide a home to the Coyotes, plus pay the value of anywhere from $650-$1billion to do so?

I've argued in this thread, and other places, the PKP just can't afford an NHL team.

As I think about it though - the Coyotes might be the only one he could afford. The thing is the "purchase price" of a team is not only the amount of money paid, but also the amount of debt taken on. If the Coyotes have, lets say, $500 million in debt (I'm making this up - I have no idea), then if PKP can pay $250mil in cash that puts the valuation on the Coyotes at $750 million.

Now that means the new-Nords would have to service $500 mil in debt, but maybe they think they can handle that/

 

[RayMartyniukTotems]

Libelous speech is not protected under the First Amendment. Propagating easily disprovable falsehoods about Bettman hating QC could roughly be put into that category.



Tickets are sold out in Tempe so no idea where you're getting that idea from. Actual butts in seats is different and don't pretend it isn't.

And if you're going to attack that angle, you better be willing to go after every single Canadian team which has had trouble at one point or another filling out their bottom bowl over the last 15 years. And last time I checked, that was all seven of them.

Canadians teams having trouble filling the lower bowl,When,100 years ago,C'mon man

 

[Garbageyuk]

All the moves Bettman made have been undone with the only exception being the Nordiques. He clearly has a grudge with QC and from where I sit it might be because giving the Nordiques back would complete undoing all the moves he did.

Just the fact that they’d rather prop up a failing franchise in Arizona, and have them play in a 4600 seat arena with no concrete plans for the future, when they could move them to QC into an 8 year old full-sized venue says it all. Absolutely bush league antics by Bettman and the NHL. There is clearly some kind of grudge/agenda at play. To pretend otherwise is ridiculous.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Just the fact that they’d rather prop up a failing franchise in Arizona, and have them play in a 4600 seat arena with no concrete plans for the future, when they could move them to QC into an 8 year old full-sized venue says it all. Absolutely bush league antics by Bettman and the NHL. There is clearly some kind of grudge/agenda at play. To pretend otherwise is ridiculous.

Look, I agree that a team in QC would be more successful than a team in Phoenix, at least in the short-to-medium term.

But you don't need to point to some kind of grudge or agenda to explain why that hasn't happened.

How exactly do you move the team from Arizona to Quebec City? Alex Meruelo isn't going to own a team in Quebec City. He doesn't have the connections there, he doesn't speak the language - and he doesn't control the Videotron Centre. Pierre-Karl Peladeau does. But in order for PKP to buy the team he has to be able to pay between $650-$1billion dollars - and I don't think he can afford it.

The same is true of almost any other location. Before you move the team to Houston, or Salt Lake City, or friggin Norfolk Virgina - you have to have an owner in place who can pay the going rate for a team PLUS the owner controls an NHL-calibre arena.

 

[Jets4Life]

But they’ll let the Yotes play in a 5000 seat college rink that they can’t even remotely sell out and continue to ‘assist’ the franchise.

Spare me.

The Coyotes have sold out every single game at the Mullett Arena.

 

[TheLegend]

But they’ll let the Yotes play in a 5000 seat college rink that they can’t even remotely sell out and continue to ‘assist’ the franchise.

Spare me.

They don’t “assist” the franchise other than with revenue sharing and a good third of the league gets that. Given all the economic factors involved there is a good chance Quebec City would also end up in the same boat becoming a revenue sharing recipient as well.

But the Coyotes are in Arizona because of one reason…. the current owner wants to remain there… period.

They wanted to stay in Glendale until they could get a new arena built and when it became apparent Tempe was going to give them a chance, Glendale decided to terminate the annually renewed lease. The dynamics here in Arizona are far more complex than you are willing (or even capable) of understanding.

So spare us all the whataboutisms.

 

[BlueSeal]

Just the fact that they’d rather prop up a failing franchise in Arizona, and have them play in a 4600 seat arena with no concrete plans for the future, when they could move them to QC into an 8 year old full-sized venue says it all. Absolutely bush league antics by Bettman and the NHL. There is clearly some kind of grudge/agenda at play. To pretend otherwise is ridiculous.

Thank you.

 

[Yukon Joe]

They don’t “assist” the franchise other than with revenue sharing and a good third of the league gets that. Given all the economic factors involved there is a good chance Quebec City would also end up in the same boat becoming a revenue sharing recipient as well.

But the Coyotes are in Arizona because of one reason…. the current owner wants to remain there… period.

They wanted to stay in Glendale until they could get a new arena built and when it became apparent Tempe was going to give them a chance, Glendale decided to terminate the annually renewed lease. The dynamics here in Arizona are far more complex than you are willing (or even capable) of understanding.

So spare us all the whataboutisms.

Some of this is now almost ancient history, but the league did more than that to keep Arizona.

Remember the league was paying the team's bills back in 2008-2009. The owner planned to sell the team to Balsillie, but the league blocked him in court and went so far as to purchase the team out of bankruptcy. That was a lot more then they did for any other team.

Now at the time I think they justified it because Glendale Arizona had built a fairly new arena (Glendale/jobbing.com/Gila River/Desert Diamond) which at the time of the bankruptcy was less than 10 years old and I don't think the league at all liked the optics of having a municipality build them a new arena and then just leave within a few years. Plus Glendale at the time was eager to keep the Coyotes at the arena.

Things are different now. Glendale changed their mind and no longer wanted the Coyotes to stay, going so far as to refuse to extend the temporary lease.

But I think there are a few different factors now at play. First, the league is probably guilty of the "sunken cost" fallacy - that after spending so much time and effort on keeping the team in Phoenix they don't want to give up on it, even though circumstances have changed.

Secondly though the franchise is now worth so much more money that it was in 2009 that they can't easily relocate it. Plus they have one of the stronger owners the team has had in a long-long time who has (or at least had) a semi-viable plan to build a new arena.

 

[TheLegend]

Some of this is now almost ancient history, but the league did more than that to keep Arizona.

Remember the league was paying the team's bills back in 2008-2009. The owner planned to sell the team to Balsillie, but the league blocked him in court and went so far as to purchase the team out of bankruptcy. That was a lot more then they did for any other team.

Now at the time I think they justified it because Glendale Arizona had built a fairly new arena (Glendale/jobbing.com/Gila River/Desert Diamond) which at the time of the bankruptcy was less than 10 years old and I don't think the league at all liked the optics of having a municipality build them a new arena and then just leave within a few years. Plus Glendale at the time was eager to keep the Coyotes at the arena.

Things are different now. Glendale changed their mind and no longer wanted the Coyotes to stay, going so far as to refuse to extend the temporary lease.

But I think there are a few different factors now at play. First, the league is probably guilty of the "sunken cost" fallacy - that after spending so much time and effort on keeping the team in Phoenix they don't want to give up on it, even though circumstances have changed.

Secondly though the franchise is now worth so much more money that it was in 2009 that they can't easily relocate it. Plus they have one of the stronger owners the team has had in a long-long time who has (or at least had) a semi-viable plan to build a new arena.

As I said above… the dynamics are complex.

The league owned the team while looking for another local owner. But their whole purpose was to protect their rights to chose whom they allowed to become an owner and prevent a rogue individual using an angle to come in through the window (as Bill Daly put it) and place it wherever they wanted.

But at the same time Glendale provided the money to not only operate the arena but to cover a sizable portion of the team’s operational costs.

 

[Garbageyuk]

The Coyotes have sold out every single game at the Mullett Arena.

They’ve “sold out” every game. The majority of that is probably them giving away tickets to their corporate partners and affiliates. On paper, sure the tickets are being “sold”. Nobody watches or gives a crap about hockey in Arizona; there are like 2 year-round ice surfaces in the entire state.

 

[Yukon Joe]

They’ve “sold out” every game. The majority of that is probably them giving away tickets to their corporate partners and affiliates. On paper, sure the tickets are being “sold”. Nobody watches or gives a crap about hockey in Arizona; there are like 2 year-round ice surfaces in the entire state.

Dude, it took like 2 seconds to fine way more ice surfaces in Phoenix alone than 2.

Do you have any kind of link that the Coyotes are giving away tickets? Because otherwise it seems like you're just making stuff up (like you did the ice surfaces).

 

[BMN]

Quebec City trying to keep the flame alive

All the moves Bettman made have been undone with the only exception being the Nordiques. He clearly has a grudge with QC and from where I sit it might be because giving the Nordiques back would complete undoing all the moves he did. Bettman didn’t move the Nordiques.

forums.hfboards.com

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I'll just re-link this since the @Garbageyuk , @GoldenSeal , and @RayMartyniukTotems of the board seem to just skip over these points rather than trying to cogently arguing against them.

 

[Garbageyuk]

Dude, it took like 2 seconds to fine way more ice surfaces in Phoenix alone than 2.

Do you have any kind of link that the Coyotes are giving away tickets? Because otherwise it seems like you're just making stuff up (like you did the ice surfaces).

I clearly said year-round ice surfaces. There are 16 ice surfaces in the state of Arizona, the majority of which do not operate year-round.

 

[TheLegend]

Dude, it took like 2 seconds to fine way more ice surfaces in Phoenix alone than 2.

Do you have any kind of link that the Coyotes are giving away tickets? Because otherwise it seems like you're just making stuff up (like you did the ice surfaces).

They aren’t. Not since Doug Moss was president anyway.

Right now you have people who really don’t have any idea what’s happening and choose to regurgitate old yarns about the franchise instead.

BTW all those sheets of ices are constantly booked. Tucson has three more coming online soon that UofA will be moving their club programs to.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Just the fact that they’d rather prop up a failing franchise in Arizona, and have them play in a 4600 seat arena with no concrete plans for the future, when they could move them to QC into an 8 year old full-sized venue says it all. Absolutely bush league antics by Bettman and the NHL. There is clearly some kind of grudge/agenda at play. To pretend otherwise is ridiculous.

Or they don’t like QC as a market? Maybe it’s that. No city is entitled to NHL team.

 

[TheLegend]

I clearly said year-round ice surfaces. There are 16 ice surfaces in the state of Arizona, the majority of which do not operate year-round.

You’re sure??

Ice Den Scottsdale: 3 year round
Ice Den Chandler: 2 year round
Gilbert: 2 year round
Peoria: 2 year round
Arcadia: 1 yr round
Mesa: 1 yr round
Tucson- TCC during Roadrunners season.
Flagstaff - 1 yr round
Mullett (ASU) - 2 year round

That makes 14. I’m not including The TCC

Plus three more coming online in Tucson in 2024.

MQ Iceplex - Mosaic Quarter

mosaicquarter.com