News Article: Quebec City, Andlauer and the Sparticat Fiasco

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I agree that you'll be able to build *some* loyalty for the Sens. Maybe a kid meets Thomas Chabot and becomes a fan for life. Great!

But doing it en masse? I.e tens of thousands of fans in Quebec City starting to watch games on TSN5, buying merchandise, and travelling to Ottawa during the regular season? No chance, IMO.

The whole announcement should have been a simple press release. Just like it was in the past for the Hockeyville games. The pageantry around it was very dumb, and it's surprising that someone like Ian Mendes was taken aback by the reaction... he reported on this team's off-ice drama for 20 years!

Well ya, that sort of thing can be huge, but just being visible is a factor too imo. To your point, the Senators (well, 6 or 7 of them) came up here for a northern tour during the lockout and that definitely turned a few here. Probably not a ton, but a few is more than none and I agree that's the most impactful, but that will also happen a bit here with them travelling there for preseason games.

Leeder did say their viewership in the area is strong. I don't feel the need to put a number on it, but they obviously feel they're getting some support there now and any growth is positive. I personally think there would be an avenue to do so. I might feel differently if it weren't their regional broadcast area, but it is, and it's a province I see as divided amongst Habs fans and former Nordiques fans.

I don't blame anyone for questioning some of the choices around the announcement. While I personally don't see QC as a real threat, I do think this not going over overly well could have been predicted by some of those within the organization. The half and half jersey is probably the only thing I personally would say was too far.

 

[IpsoPostFacto]

This narrative reminds me of how the Brooklyn Nets thought they'd steal market share from the Knicks. Being the "anti-Knicks" was going to be great! Turns out, nobody outside of a small slice of Brooklyn and New Jersey cares about the Nets. Never did and never will. They didn't even care when they blew their wad on Durant and Kyrie.

The idea that there's some major untapped anti-Habs population in Quebec and Maritimes just waiting to be converted by Michael Andlauer's Ottawa Senators is very funny.

It is lunacy.

We have enough trouble convincing the kids of local habs/leaf fans to come out wearing the sens colours.

Grab the low hanging fruit. Continue visiting schools, clubs and whatever with some players and build the young fanbase. I recall a young girl on a friend's kid's hockey team. They did one of those deals where you play at CTC before the game and then meet some players. Nick Paul took some time to talk to her. To this day, he is her favourite hockey player. I'll be she turned into a Tamp fan.

Hell, if we decide to draft some Chinese guy like Winnipeg did, then just market the crap out of that guy and sell 400 million Sens sweaters in China and laugh all the way to the bank.

 

[bicboi64]

Grab the low hanging fruit. Continue visiting schools, clubs and whatever with some players and build the young fanbase. I recall a young girl on a friend's kid's hockey team. They did one of those deals where you play at CTC before the game and then meet some players. Nick Paul took some time to talk to her. To this day, he is her favourite hockey player. I'll be she turned into a Tamp fan.

Hell, if we decide to draft some Chinese guy like Winnipeg did, then just market the crap out of that guy and sell 400 million Sens sweaters in China and laugh all the way to the bank.

Even some more cultural events. I love it when Vancouver has Diwali-themed nights and jerseys. Its a great way to plant some seeds in communities that might not be too familiar with hockey. I'm not a Nucks fan by any measure, but am tempted to buy a Diwali themed jersey because its nice to see my culture rep'd.

Keep at it with the school programs, boys and girls clubs, etc., as well

 

[Knave]

Even some more cultural events. I love it when Vancouver has Diwali-themed nights and jerseys. Its a great way to plant some seeds in communities that might not be too familiar with hockey. I'm not a Nucks fan by any measure, but am tempted to buy a Diwali themed jersey because its nice to see my culture rep'd.

Keep at it with the school programs, boys and girls clubs, etc., as well

This would be a good idea. I know Edmonton had a Dia de los Muertos game on November 4th where they showcased jerseys in warm-up(?) if I remember right and then auctioned them after:

You don't need to go that heavy on merchandise and inventory, you can go pretty simple like Edmonton did here where they had jerseys for the players to auction and then smaller, easier to adjust items like hats and pucks with the logo on it as well available for purchase.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

 

[Stylizer1]

I guess we should just rename the team Ottawa-Gatineau-Quebec City-Atlantic Canada Senators.

The majority of fans live in Ottawa, and have spent tens of thousands of dollars supporting this team over the years. Taking away home games from them is a great way to thank them for that support.

"This team belongs to the Ottawa-Gatineau community" said Michael Andlauer. "That's why my vision is to play less games there."

I never mentioned any of that. I talked about bringing a bus load of Quebec fans here a few time a season seeing as they have access to watching our games. Make Quebec Snes territory.

 

[PlayersLtd]

I disagree. Quebec City wants the Nordiques, not the Senators. Could you win some fans? Sure. But it'll be negligible. And the rollout was so ham handed that the negative reaction is all anyone will remember.

We've played in the Maritimes during the pre-season a bunch over the years. There's no growing hotbed of Sens fans there. They all still cheer for the Leafs, Habs, Bruins or Pens.

False. Quebec City is hockey mad. The Ramparts are the highest grossing jr team in Canada by a long shot and every tournament and exhibition game that plays in that city does very well, including the biggest peewee tournament in the world, might not be a bad idea to sponsor that one day... Quebec is hockey starved, it goes way deeper than the Nordiques and we are so uniquely positioned to tap into this because of their disdain for the habs, the fact that we're an underdog like them, we're bilingual etc... There are a lot of positive angles here.

You saying they only want the Nords is based on what? Every day that goes by the legacy of the nordiques fades and with it opens up an opportunity for someone else to fill the void. It starts with an exhibition game, then it grows to camp, hosting the rookie tournament, sponsoring an arena and maybe even one day a regular season game, maybe an outdoor one.

Are you guys honestly saying that isn't going to add up? Had we started doing this 20 years go when Melnyk came in there is no question that it would be moving the needle. And we as local sens fans would love that there are some francophone brethren out there standing up for the sens in face of the habs, leafs and bruins.

People gotta let the fear go. It's absurd that it's stirring up this level of resentment. This is a great thing, be happy for Chabot!

 

[JackieDaytona]

Wowzers. What a controversy over nothing, must be slow news days up there.

Do I want to see Quebec City taking any significant portion of regular season games away from Ottawa? Nope. Would I rather the team play 2 games in QC instead of f***in Sweden Finland Australia Taiwan or wherever the f*** place that disrupts the flow of a season? Absolutely.

All these stoopid ass places the NHL thinks will help “grow the game,” what about a hockey mad city a few hours up the road who coincidentally are already included in our broadcast market? We’re always the leagues’ sacrificial lambs; I applaud him for taking the reins and forcing the better option for the team rather than the league.

As a former Habs owner, MA definitely understands that there are many Quebecois outside of Montreal who hate the habs more than they like any given current nhl team with the history of the Nordiques (ripped away just as they were on the cusp of an amazing Avs franchise run, dipshit obsessed and over the top Montreal media, etc. ). Ripe for new additions to the next-most French fanbase and franchise in the league. If it also lights a fire under the NCC to actually do their f***in job, that’s a bonus.

I didn’t read this as a foreshadowing of a big move to an even smaller, much more isolated(geographically, culturally, linguistically) city. If you can’t make it work in Ottawa, good luck with Quebec lol.

Andlauer must know this. The error was assuming everyone in Ottawa saw this as plainly, and weren’t still harboring ill feelings from that f***wit Melnyk and his threats to move.

 

[DackellDuck]

False. Quebec City is hockey mad. The Ramparts are the highest grossing jr team in Canada by a long shot and every tournament and exhibition game that plays in that city does very well, including the biggest peewee tournament in the world, might not be a bad idea to sponsor that one day... Quebec is hockey starved, it goes way deeper than the Nordiques and we are so uniquely positioned to tap into this because of their disdain for the habs, the fact that we're an underdog like them, we're bilingual etc... There are a lot of positive angles here.

You saying they only want the Nords is based on what? Every day that goes by the legacy of the nordiques fades and with it opens up an opportunity for someone else to fill the void. It starts with an exhibition game, then it grows to camp, hosting the rookie tournament, sponsoring an arena and maybe even one day a regular season game, maybe an outdoor one.

Are you guys honestly saying that isn't going to add up? Had we started doing this 20 years go when Melnyk came in there is no question that it would be moving the needle. And we as local sens fans would love that there are some francophone brethren out there standing up for the sens in face of the habs, leafs and bruins.

People gotta let the fear go. It's absurd that it's stirring up this level of resentment. This is a great thing, be happy for Chabot!

Why should the people of Ottawa be excited that the Ottawa Senators want to spend more time playing and hosting events outside of Ottawa?

“Woo! Fewer home games for us! And certainly don't have our prospects play in town for the home fans, get them somewhere else asap! Screw an outdoor game at Lansdowne where it would benefit the local community… do it in Quebec instead! That’ll show those Habs fans!”

How is that a great thing?

I want to see the Ottawa Senators play their home games in Ottawa, where their fans live and can attend, not in Quebec City or anywhere else.

I don't get people who are concerned with the "size" of fanbases or how many people cheer for their team in other parts of the country. These are the Ottawa Senators. Focus on Ottawa. If people in other towns get on board, great. If they don’t, who cares. There's a lot of people bringing up "insecurity" in this thread. Seems to me that those concerned about "standing up to Habs fans in Quebec" are the insecure fans....

Quebec City can keep enjoying the Remparts, and Ottawa can keep enjoying the Senators.

Michael Andlauer and Cyril Leeder should focus on rebuilding the team's brand within this community, not pandering to former Nordiques fans.

 

[IpsoPostFacto]

False. Quebec City is hockey mad. The Ramparts are the highest grossing jr team in Canada by a long shot and every tournament and exhibition game that plays in that city does very well, including the biggest peewee tournament in the world, might not be a bad idea to sponsor that one day... Quebec is hockey starved, it goes way deeper than the Nordiques and we are so uniquely positioned to tap into this because of their disdain for the habs, the fact that we're an underdog like them, we're bilingual etc... There are a lot of positive angles here.

You saying they only want the Nords is based on what? Every day that goes by the legacy of the nordiques fades and with it opens up an opportunity for someone else to fill the void. It starts with an exhibition game, then it grows to camp, hosting the rookie tournament, sponsoring an arena and maybe even one day a regular season game, maybe an outdoor one.

Are you guys honestly saying that isn't going to add up? Had we started doing this 20 years go when Melnyk came in there is no question that it would be moving the needle. And we as local sens fans would love that there are some francophone brethren out there standing up for the sens in face of the habs, leafs and bruins.

People gotta let the fear go. It's absurd that it's stirring up this level of resentment. This is a great thing, be happy for Chabot!

I'm pretty sure that when people here say "they only want the Nords" it means they only want their very own NHL team to love and hold. Not some scraps tossed at them in pre-season or even regular season.

Now, they will show up. In a big way. But it's not because they love the Sens, although it might be to boo the Habs. They will show up to try and convince the NHL to bring in an NHL team.

If they did this for a say 3 years and it became obvious that the NHL wasn't really that into them, then forget it, the will not show up. To test that, make it Ottawa Senators vs <name a boring franchise that nobody cares about> . good luck.

 

[Stylizer1]

The team might move one day. If Quebec City wines and dines Andlauer and the arena talks fall apart here, it might happen sooner than we think. It's been a realistic possibility since the 90's, and remains so today. The Coyotes just moved, didn't they? Their arena plans fell apart and all of a sudden a new city with a rink was ready to embrace them.

Andlauer doesn't owe this market anything. He's testing the waters. But sure have blind faith in him as if he's your wife.

Would you cheer for the Quebec City Senators if they move? Since it doesn't matter where the team plays?

Who are you?

I was a Habs fan as a kid because every Saturday night they were on. That stuck with me up until about midway through the 3rd season with the Sens when I fully cheered for them. They were my 2 favourite teams. If Quebec gets to see or all of our games and we win a championship there will be a generation of fans there that will bleed red, white and black. The Bills are that here for many people because they grew up only seeing the Buffalo/Rochester feeds.

 

[bicboi64]

This would be a good idea. I know Edmonton had a Dia de los Muertos game on November 4th where they showcased jerseys in warm-up(?) if I remember right and then auctioned them after:

You don't need to go that heavy on merchandise and inventory, you can go pretty simple like Edmonton did here where they had jerseys for the players to auction and then smaller, easier to adjust items like hats and pucks with the logo on it as well available for purchase.

That jersey looks dope. So many cultural events that warrant unique jerseys, getting local artists involved, etc.,

 

[Silky Johnson]

I'd love to know where you got "generally defined as" since as far as I can find, there is no general definition,

Having said that,
The Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) defines a member of the middle class as anyone who earns between 75 per cent and 200 per cent of median household income after tax.

The Brookings Institution defines middle class as the middle 60 percent of households on the income distribution.

The Pew Research Center defines “middle class” as earning an income between two-thirds and twice the national median income.

The Urban Institute defines the middle class as those whose income is from 250% to 499% of the federal poverty line.

Hell, I even found an article that compared 12 different definitions and how they'd work when applied to the US population

One thing that is consistent though, is far more people consider themselves to be middle class than you'd expect.

Yes. I live in London (and Dubai). Wy wife and I are both senior professional. If you look at our family income we are in the top 1% of wage earners in the UK. We very much consider ourselves Middle Class (upper). We own a slightly larger home and slightly nicer cars then some of our peer group but we are far from rich.

The top 1% income in the UK starts at GBP180k per person and ends at the highest earner in the country - Billionairs. That is a huge spread.

Any definition that uses percentiles would be problematic.

 

[PlayersLtd]

Why should the people of Ottawa be excited that the Ottawa Senators want to spend more time playing and hosting events outside of Ottawa?

“Woo! Fewer home games for us! And certainly don't have our prospects play in town for the home fans, get them somewhere else asap! Screw an outdoor game at Lansdowne where it would benefit the local community… do it in Quebec instead! That’ll show those Habs fans!”

Nobody said excited, just don't walk yourself to the ledge over it. But anything that helps the finances of the team should be applauded, no? And I ask that you not pretend to be smarter than the self made billionnaire who thinks it makes good business sense because nobody here is.

I want to see the Ottawa Senators play their home games in Ottawa, where their fans live and can attend, not in Quebec City or anywhere else.

I don't get people who are concerned with the "size" of fanbases or how many people cheer for their team in other parts of the country. These are the Ottawa Senators. Focus on Ottawa. If people in other towns get on board, great. If they don’t, who cares. There's a lot of people bringing up "insecurity" in this thread. Seems to me that those concerned about "standing up to Habs fans in Quebec" are the insecure fans....

The regular season game thing is getting completely blown out of proportion. But even if it were to happen, I think we can afford to lose one game in February against a team like Utah or Anaheim with the upside that it gets national coverage.

Quebec City can keep enjoying the Remparts, and Ottawa can keep enjoying the Senators.

Michael Andlauer and Cyril Leeder should focus on rebuilding the team's brand within this community, not pandering to former Nordiques fans.

Diminishing returns. It takes a huge amount of effort to get that last 1%. It takes very little to get the first 1%. This is precisely the business model that validates leagues and teams playing abroad.

But anyway, who said they can't do both. They can do a preseason fanfest or sponsor an arena in QC AND do it in Ottawa too. As for the exhibition games themselves, you're literally arguing against games that are played elsewhere anyway. As for the regular season games, not relevant. Relax, those are up to the league. Andlauer was just paying some lip service to QC and for that he is sorry if he stirred up some sensitivities.

It's like a rescue dog flinching when their new owner raises his hand around here.

 

[Silky Johnson]

the NCC is offering a plot of land, probably worth 100-200 million, and 200-300 million for clean up.

That means
1) 100-200 million of saving on a piece of land for Andlauer
2) 200-300 million to the Ottawa economy, for construction work on the cleanup portion alone. That 200-300 million is federal dollars, all 41 million Canadians will drop that money to employ us in Ottawa

So... measure any option plan B against that!!!!!!

Doug Ford has already told us to; Go f*** ourselves... He has almost 50 billion in infrastructure for the GTA the next 10 years.. He wants a tunnel below Toronto to alleviate traffic!!!!! and so on.

The city of Ottawa does not have a pot to piss in....

That leaves Uncle Justin and Federal dollars...

So Michael A. has to learn to be patient.. Put up with the shit. Or drop 1-2 million on Doug Fords party/campaign and then things may loosen up. Or, Maybe Michael A. can remove Mona Ambrose from his Board, if he wants Uncle Justin and the heavily Liberal party controlled NCC to act. Or, maybe Michael A. needs to make a nice 1-2 million dollar donation to the Liberal party.

He can't make large donations to Political parties. No one can in Canada.

Federal political financing in Canada - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

 

[GCK]

What does being an "insecure fan" even mean?

You can bury your head in the sand, but there's a realistic chance that one day, this franchise moves. Some people want to hold up Andlauer as some sort of saviour who'll always only be committed to Ottawa, but he's not that. That's just realism.

He's a businessperson who bought an NHL franchise (probably the only one he could afford), and this move signals that he's already looking at options for down the road if things don't go his way on the arena front.

So yeah the people who spend thousands of dollars a year supporting this team in Ottawa will be pissed off that the owner wants to play fewer games here, and is telling them to be excited about it.

For the record, I think going to play games in Sweden is stupid too.

Lol Quebec City is not an option for an NHL franchise either through expansion or relocation. If Andlauer was thinking of playing games in Southern Ontario you might have reason for concern.

 

[GCK]

I don’t think holding a press conference and publicly stating that your vision is to “play regular season games in Quebec City” is an effective way of endearing yourself to the existing fanbase in Ottawa, no.

If I was the owner, my priority would be filling the rink in Kanata and increasing the visibility of the Senators in the National Capital Region. Doing more events downtown, in the East end, in the Valley, etc.

Despite saying they would, to this point, they haven’t done much in that regard.

So making big a spectacle of playing games 400km away in a city to which you have zero connection while paying homage to a completely different NHL franchise would certainly not have been a priority.

And then having the President come out aghast that people are talking about the thing you yourself framed as a “major announcement” and not the Utah game?

Melnyk-esque idea and execution.

Maybe Andlauer underestimated the incredible insecurities of some of the fan base. The reaction to this boggles my mind.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Bell media owns the rights, CTV is under Bell media umbrella. Games are broadcast on TSN not CTV Ottawa.

The broadcast rights for the Ottawa Senators are technically owned by the team, but the broadcasting arrangements are typically negotiated with a media company or network. In the case of the Senators, the team has had a long-standing partnership with Sportsnet, which is part of Rogers Communications. Sportsnet carries the majority of the Senators' regional broadcasts.

However, the team itself controls how those rights are distributed, and it is not unusual for sports teams to strike deals with various networks, sometimes including local or national coverage, as well as digital streaming services.

At the same time, the national broadcast rights for the NHL in Canada are also handled by Sportsnet and CBC, which often air marquee games like the Stanley Cup playoffs or national matchups, but for most of the Senators' regular-season games, they are under the team’s regional contract with Sportsnet.

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

I'm pretty sure that when people here say "they only want the Nords" it means they only want their very own NHL team to love and hold. Not some scraps tossed at them in pre-season or even regular season.

Now, they will show up. In a big way. But it's not because they love the Sens, although it might be to boo the Habs. They will show up to try and convince the NHL to bring in an NHL team.

If they did this for a say 3 years and it became obvious that the NHL wasn't really that into them, then forget it, the will not show up. To test that, make it Ottawa Senators vs <name a boring franchise that nobody cares about> . good luck.

It will be interesting to see what the crowd looks like for the pre-season game against the Canadiens. There is an assumption that everybody in Quebec City hates the Canadiens, but I can't see that being the case for fans under the age of 25 or 30.

If you were born in QC in 1995, whether you get into hockey at the age of 5, 10, 15, whatever - the team has already been gone for a significant period culturally.

To put it into perspective, if you Senators relocated back in the late 90s or early 00s, would you expect a 20-30 year old who loves hockey to not cheer for the Maple Leafs or Canadiens because there was a team in Ottawa before that person was cognizant of the sport?

I don't understand the logic about this being in our territory giving us a chance to reach out, because I am fairly certain they get Canadiens games just like we get them in Ottawa. There was a deal made to share territorial rights. This is something people should ask Andlauer, Mendes, and Leeder to elaborate on - because it makes no sense as a business plan.

Ever wonder why Canadiens mid-week games are on TV in Ottawa and the Leafs aren’t? – Bruce Firestone

brucemfirestone.com

Unless that agreement is no longer valid, or unless the agreement only included specific areas of the territory.

The big issue people have with this is that it doesn't pass the smell test. Their justification for the partnership makes no sense, and their execution of it is even worse. It's as if they wanted this to blow up the way it did, coincidentally at the same time as they are negotiating to build an arena. It's like they have come up with this flimsy justification so that they can have their cake and eat it too, plausible deniability about their business engagements with a group notorious for seeking an NHL team as to not hurt local perception, but also bring the possibility of relocation into the minds of their stakeholders to put pressure on the city.

 

[IpsoPostFacto]

Maybe Andlauer underestimated the incredible insecurities of some of the fan base. The reaction to this boggles my mind.

yes, it boggles the mind to understand such a reaction to an owner saying "I can't wait to play some regular season games here. I hope we can make it happen"

if they had stuck to no big splashy new conference (why do that for an exhibition game in 6 months) and not talked about regular season games, I don't think any of this discussion is happening.

interesting that LA managed to get a few million to do their games their last year. We got nada - as in didn't even try. Pretty generous really.

There was some 'underestimating' indeed. That's actually a good thing.

 

[mianjo]

If I was the Sens i would tell the NCC to shove it and go with the City Centre site, bigger area and i'm sure a lot cheaper.

 

[Golden_Jet]

The broadcast rights for the Ottawa Senators are technically owned by the team, but the broadcasting arrangements are typically negotiated with a media company or network. In the case of the Senators, the team has had a long-standing partnership with Sportsnet, which is part of Rogers Communications. Sportsnet carries the majority of the Senators' regional broadcasts.

However, the team itself controls how those rights are distributed, and it is not unusual for sports teams to strike deals with various networks, sometimes including local or national coverage, as well as digital streaming services.

At the same time, the national broadcast rights for the NHL in Canada are also handled by Sportsnet and CBC, which often air marquee games like the Stanley Cup playoffs or national matchups, but for most of the Senators' regular-season games, they are under the team’s regional contract with Sportsnet.

No that would be wrong ,

Sportsnet shows National games, about 1/3 of schedule.

TSN shows regional games, about 2/3 of schedule,

Sportsnet does not have any Senators regional games, and haven’t for 11 years now.

 

[IpsoPostFacto]

Wowzers. What a controversy over nothing, must be slow news days up there.

Do I want to see Quebec City taking any significant portion of regular season games away from Ottawa? Nope. Would I rather the team play 2 games in QC instead of f***in Sweden Finland Australia Taiwan or wherever the f*** place that disrupts the flow of a season? Absolutely.

All these stoopid ass places the NHL thinks will help “grow the game,” what about a hockey mad city a few hours up the road who coincidentally are already included in our broadcast market? We’re always the leagues’ sacrificial lambs; I applaud him for taking the reins and forcing the better option for the team rather than the league.

As a former Habs owner, MA definitely understands that there are many Quebecois outside of Montreal who hate the habs more than they like any given current nhl team with the history of the Nordiques (ripped away just as they were on the cusp of an amazing Avs franchise run, dipshit obsessed and over the top Montreal media, etc. ). Ripe for new additions to the next-most French fanbase and franchise in the league. If it also lights a fire under the NCC to actually do their f***in job, that’s a bonus.

I didn’t read this as a foreshadowing of a big move to an even smaller, much more isolated(geographically, culturally, linguistically) city. If you can’t make it work in Ottawa, good luck with Quebec lol.

Andlauer must know this. The error was assuming everyone in Ottawa saw this as plainly, and weren’t still harboring ill feelings from that f***wit Melnyk and his threats to move.

Andlauer is learning that when you are explaining, you are losing.

The message, whatever it is supposed to be, is lost. You simply can't ignore the history of how Melnyk used Quebec as a pawn - at the same time as you are messaging to fans/ncc/both that the NCC deal is looking rough and not expect to get a wtf.

It's like if you are 45 and your wife is like "I was at the fertility clinic today. It's looking like success" and after pulling yourself off the floor she means she just drove a friend there.

*for the record, I don't think this is about growing the game. Apparently Quebec fans are already watching on T.V, so whatever this is, it's not to get more eyes on the T.V. It's probably a pain to the NHL because now Quebec will be on them again about a team.

 

[Stylizer1]

If I was the Sens i would tell the NCC to shove it and go with the City Centre site, bigger area and i'm sure a lot cheaper.

Isn't the City center the exact spot where Rudy is building his towers?

It's why the partnership with Melnyk broke down because he was build them on Albert street and would take away from the larger project or something like that.