GDT: Quarterfinal - May 23 - Finland vs Sweden

[matsqq]

Watch it dude! I am a descendant of Klaus Fleming

However, there is also Finnish, German, Ukrainian, French and Georgian blood in my veins.

Also blood from three wolverines and a bear otherwise you would not be finnish

 

[The Cannon of Tesoma]

Watch it dude! I am a descendant of Klaus Fleming

However, there is also Finnish, German, Ukrainian, French and Georgian blood in my veins.

You're not special. That same applies to about 95% of contemporary Finnish citizens going back some 20 generations.

For Swedes its almost same, tho inter-scandinavian heritage is much stronger there, far we go to west. Regardless, clearly Finnic ancestry is well presented in current Swedish population (relative to Norwegians and Danes).

But this all is irrelevant. Hockey came to Finland from west, and Sweden was always ahead of Finland in this sense.

However, the real threat (and real didact) was always at the east, ever since Russians started to play the game...

 

[Hasa92]

Alfredsson, Näslund, Bäckström, Karlsson for starters.

Cute, we had about 50 players that were supposed to be in this team instead.

 

[jfc64]

Next year, let players who want to be on the team send in an application. Could be SHL players or even Allsvenskan. Also, I want Sundqvist on the fourth line. And Zibanejad. But not on that line. Another one.

 

[QnebO]

Watch it dude! I am a descendant of Klaus Fleming

However, there is also Finnish, German, Ukrainian, French and Georgian blood in my veins.

Pretty good bloodline, just go to verenluovutus and tell them to only take the french part out

 

[Chimpradamus]

That Chimpanzee who thought that swedes had the top 2 goalies of the tournament ...

Wow, what an outlandish statement by me to believe that Lundqvist and Markström would be the strongest goalie tandem. I didn't exactly claim neither of them individually were better than Vasilevsky for example. But please, continue to put words in my mouth. Enjoy your no name goalie against Russia in the semis.

 

[DoubleGold]

You're not special. That same applies to about 95% of contemporary Finnish citizens going back some 20 generations.

For Swedes its almost same, tho inter-scandinavian heritage is much stronger there, far we go to west. Regardless, clearly Finnic ancestry is well presented in current Swedish population (relative to Norwegians and Danes).

But this all is irrelevant. Hockey came to Finland from west, and Sweden was always ahead of Finland in this sense.

However, the real threat (and real didact) was always at the east, ever since Russians started to play the game...

I'd like to see Forsbergs 23andme results . Dude looks straight up Finnish and he's from Northern Sweden.

 

[Monaakko]

The stuff Fleming and his likes pulled in Finland wouldn't have been accepted in western Sweden, no frigging way...

Well, it wasn't exactly accepted in Finland either, not to mention similar things were done to the peasants of Dalarna (countless revolts there), Småland (Dackefejden) and Skåne (after it was ceded by Denmark).

 

[RorschachWJK]

Yes, but this is Sweden - Finland and it's one game. What is obvious will still have to be earned. I hope you at least have a good car radio. Don't drive down in a ditch if Finland scores.

Was driving through very remote areas so very bad reception on the channel the game was on...half the game could not make out words being said so the only way was to listen to the volume and pitch of the garbled reception. Both volume and pitch being high means that one of the teams probably scored or nearly so

 

[Slap]

That's way too simplified. Finnish farmers were treated the same as Swedish farmers, which compared to most other nations was quite good (mainly because the Swedish nobility was relatively weak). The farmers were not the legal property of the noble for example, which they were in many places. Treated fairly well except for the cannon fodder part, which was exactly the same for Swedish peasants. I mean sure, Finland weren't exactly given the best priests or competent aristocrats, but do you think the situation was any different for northern Sweden, for example? Nope.

Or what, you think Finnish nobles wouldn't have found some way to get into wars if you were independent? Yeah right. I guess they would've fired rainbows from their asses as well.

And when Indelningsverket was formally created during the 1600s, I would say Finnish farmers had it well, compared to the European counterparts.

Have you ever heard of the great northern war? About 1/3 of Finlands population died and many were transported to Russia for slavery. This is all because Sweden didn't see those people worthy of defending. This is why Sweden is what it is today.
No national identity, no patriotism. It's nothing at all. I'm not gloating. My roots are in Sweden and I'm not happy about the situation.

 

[The Cannon of Tesoma]

@Koijari

Yeah.

If we start think the procedure of how you get "civilized" in past centuries as Finnish speaking peasant.

1. You were either conscripted, or "conscripted" to the army of king
2. You were signed to the ranks with your Swedish "soldier name" (as Swedish officers couldn't pronounce Finnish names easily), you became "Staal", "Svard", etc. when you were called Matinpoikas, or Nenonens, or...
3. You were forcibly taught the rudimentary Swedish vocabulary as the king's army command tongue
4. You participated to an endless wars at The Kingdom's eastern periferia
5. You survived (unlike countless others of your social 'class') against the odds
6. The King knighted you for your deeds, and your low-noble children spoke Swedish. Your "tax" was to provide soldiers or cavalry for the army.

7. Repeat 1-6 until Finns were exhausted.

8. Retreat from the province, when Finns are killed to the last man. Repeatedly. Let eastern cavalry rape their women (developed under similar circumstances as a battle thralls). Century after century.

9. Make a little brother that takes always every beating for the big brother.

10. Expect they would be always obedient. Expect they would love you. Expect they would give up.

Symbolic value of this win penetrate through the thousands of pages of tomes of Finnish history, written in Swedish.

 

[QnebO]

All the bullying by Sweden and Russia made us strong. Hard times makes strong people - storng people make good times - good times make weak people - weak people make hard times.. repeat. The circulation of nature. We need some hard times in future!

 

[Slap]

Come on...you know that's not the case.

And today were enemies in hockey but otherwise very close.

What exactly is not the case?
I've lived most of my time in Sweden. There are some serious xenophobic attitudes against Finns in Sweden. It's obviously not a major issue because Finns are white.
I've also lived much of my time in Finland. Finns don't seem to like Swedes either. So this brother talk seems pretty weird to me.

 

[RorschachWJK]

What exactly is not the case?
I've lived most of my time in Sweden. There are some serious xenophobic attitudes against Finns in Sweden. It's obviously not a major issue because Finns are white.
I've also lived much of my time in Finland. Finns don't seem to like Swedes either. So this brother talk seems pretty weird to me.

Well, I guess we move in different circles then

 

[Svanstrom]

Maybe it's something about the condescending way "big brother" talks about them.
I've studied Finlands history and found out there is no brotherly love between the countries.
Finland was nothing more than cannon fodder against Russia and other foreign wars during the Swedish reign.
As of today Finland is one of the best countries to live in despite of Swedish oppression 100 years ago.

On pair with how Canada treated first nations or? As far as I know the Finns are a very valued and loved neighbour to most Swedes.

 

[Lepardi]

6-0 Sweden. We have no chance, Sweden has too much talent.

Well said.

 

[Slap]

Well, I guess we move in different circles then

I think you're just not paying attention.
It's similar how Finns talk about Estonians. No one is innocent but we shouldn't talk about Sweden and Finland like they were brothers, because that's simply not the case.

 

[Slap]

On pair with how Canada treated first nations or? As far as I know the Finns are a very valued and loved neighbour to most Swedes.

Canadians did what they did back in the day. I'm not calling the natives my brothers tho, because they would probably f*** me up​

 

[The Cannon of Tesoma]

Hakkapeliitta - Wikipedia

"Our [Finnish] Hakkapelites cannot have been any sort of fine representatives. I should mention a parade of the Gustaf Adolf troops in the Thirty Years' War, while the king still lived. At first went the blue, yellow, green etc. mercenaries of the regiment in their flashy gear. Then came, clothed so-so, bridles and baldricks repaired with birch bark and cord, legs hanging from the backs of their small, shaggy horses, cutlasses dragging on the ground, a troop of hollow-cheeked but stern-eyed men. When the Dutch ambassador inquired who they were, the last rider, a fat German Quartermaster [kuormastovääpeli] in charge of the cargo proudly replied "The royal Life Guards: Finnish, pärkkele!".

...

Seldomly the proper credits come to the right address.

Next game. Against Russia. If its going to be massacre, so be it, nothing new. But Swedes should put hopes on us, and honestly credit where credits due. At least once...​

 

[matsqq]

Canadians did what they did back in the day. I'm not calling the natives my brothers tho, because they would probably **** me up​

You are our beloved brother no matter what you say or do

 

[Slap]

You are our beloved brother no matter what you say or do

All I'm saying is that for what Finland is today, Sweden gets no credit.
So in short we shouldn't call them little brothers.

 

[Monaakko]

@Koijari

Yeah.

If we start think the procedure of how you get "civilized" in past centuries as Finnish speaking peasant.

1. You were either conscripted, or "conscripted" to the army of king
2. You were signed to the ranks with your Swedish "soldier name" (as Swedish officers couldn't pronounce Finnish names easily), you became "Staal", "Svard", etc. when you were called Matinpoikas, or Nenonens, or...
3. You were forcibly taught the rudimentary Swedish vocabulary as the king's army command tongue
4. You participated to an endless wars at The Kingdom's eastern periferia
5. You survived (unlike countless others of your social 'class') against the odds
6. The King knighted you for your deeds, and your low-noble children spoke Swedish. Your "tax" was to provide soldiers or cavalry for the army.

7. Repeat 1-6 until Finns were exhausted.

8. Retreat from the province, when Finns are killed to the last man. Repeatedly. Let eastern cavalry rape their women (developed under similar circumstances as a battle thralls). Century after century.

9. Make a little brother that takes always every beating for the big brother.

10. Expect they would be always obedient. Expect they would love you. Expect they would give up.

Symbolic value of this win penetrate through the thousands of pages of tomes of Finnish history, written in Swedish.

1. This is true of the entire peasantry of the Kingdom of Sweden
2. Likewise (except they spoke swedish, but they too were given "soldier names")
3. This is true of all who served in the Swedish army, including German and Scottish mercenaries
4. True of the entire peasantry
5. Same
6. Same (a surprising number of nobles actually spoke if not fluent at least rudimentary Finnish, not to mention a large portion of the clergy)
7. Same
8. The same happened in the Swedish territories in Livonia, Ingria, northern Germany, Skåne etc.
9. There was no distinct Finnish identity before the 18th century and the Anjala conspiracy and even then the "nationalist" tendencies were very weak until the mid-19th century under Russian rule.
10. True of all regions of the kingdom

There was no intentional oppression of Finns as a linguistic, cultural or social entity. In fact, the Swedish aristocracy and clergy promoted the Finnish language (unlike the Russians) as part of the ideals of the Reformation about religion in the people's own language The fate the people of Finland suffered from foreign occupation was due to geographic circumstance, not oppression by the swedish aristocracy. Not to mention, twice during the 18th century the kingdom was lead by a Finnish nobleman (or rather a Swedish nobleman from the region of Finland) Arvid Horn (1720-1738) and Gustaf Philip Creutz (1783-1785) as head of the Privy Council. Arvid Horn presiding during the Age of Liberty and in practice wielding more power than the King. Furthermore the coup d'état of Gustav III was planned to be undertaken with the support of the peasantry of Skåne and Finland rather than that of other regions or the nobility and the Gustavian Autocracy was supported in large part by the Finnish peasantry. Finland was an integrated part of Sweden and suffered no more or less than any other part except by geographic proximity to the kingdoms chief enemy: Russia. It is rather ahistoric to assign national identity to its people prior to the rise of nationalism in the 19th century and the people themselves probably saw themselves more as Tavastians, Savonians or Ostrobothnians or even Swedes than they did as Finns.

Have you ever heard of the great northern war? About 1/3 of Finlands population died and many were transported to Russia for slavery. This is all because Sweden didn't see those people worthy of defending. This is why Sweden is what it is today.
No national identity, no patriotism. It's nothing at all. I'm not gloating. My roots are in Sweden and I'm not happy about the situation.

Not worthy of defending? What do you think the war was about apart from defending the eastern territories of the kingdom. After Poltava there was no army capable of defending Finland, ergo the occupation.

Edit: Correction: there were in fact 3 Finnish noblemen in the position as president of the Privy Council during the 18th century, I forgot the first one, Nils Gyldenstolpe (1702-1705 (as acting president) and 1705-1709 as permanent president )

 

[The Cannon of Tesoma]

@Monaakko

Check that 2nd quote you pasted. I didn't say that.

I agree with you. Generally. There was no distinct Finnish identity. The biggest troubles were always between Western and Eastern Finnish tribes, also during (and especially) first pages of Finnish history.

Yes. Finnish contingents were practically never in Finland in any of those wars. Needed more urgently elsewhere.

My point was practically a "pre-emptive measure" against both Swedish and Finnish nationalist ethos.

The best lecture for Finns was given by Swede Augustin Ehrensvärd in his undying command (carved on the stone at The King's gate of Sveaborg):

"Eftervärld, stå här på egen botn och lita icke på främmande hielp"

"Progeny, stand here on your own foundation and do not rely on foreign help"

Augusting Ehrensvärd's grave at Suomenlinna (Sveaborg).

Ofc. That all has very little to do with hockey, but only way to make it the finals is just following those words to their deepest meaning.

Luckily General Jalonen knows that.

 

[Monaakko]

@Monaakko

Check that 2nd quote you pasted. I didn't say that.

Yes, sorry, I mixed the quotes up trying to multiquote, fixed it now.

 

[The Cannon of Tesoma]

Yes, sorry, I mixed the quotes up trying to multiquote, fixed it now.

No worries.