GDT: Quarterfinal - February 21 - Sweden (3) vs Germany (4) OT

[Jussi]

I had the exact number a while back but I believe it's in the range of half a mil SEK that Frölunda pays for Dahlin to attend the hockey gymnasium. Apart from that, i have no idea. But remember that Dahlin is one of the few who actually made it. What the investment for Frölunda is contra the number of players that actually become regulars on the squad, I do not know.

The point of my question is that how much money have Frölunda spent in his hockey career before gymnasium and how much have his parents been the one paying for it? For comparison, in Finland basically all the junior coaches before age of 15 (C-juniors) are more or less part timers or volunteers, depending on the location and size of the club. Only the highest age group (A-juniors) juniors teams that play in A-juniors SM -Liiga get everything paid for by the club. Before that it's mostly on the parents. So in Finland clubs haven't exactly "invested" in the player's development.

 

[Jussi]

The key point is that Dahlin would not be able to become a hockey player if he did not play at a hockey club. Of course, he could be trained by professionals or amateurs, who are paid by his parents, on a pond somewhere in Sweden. I ask you, is this the case with Dahlin? And I hope you will reply. So, the most important thing is that Frolunda gave him an opportunity to play at their youth teams, trained by their coaches, playing some SWE competitions - some kind of know-how. And that is not for free. Even if his parents paid billions of dollars for his development, the club gave him much more to become a player how he is.

Return of investment as said above - it is not only bucks which the club invested into his development (a training compensation/development fee). It includes also his future value (sport & marketing) as a professional hockey player. And the club should have right to request as much money as the club considers as appropriate compensation for losing him to another club. Note, Frolunda does NOT have such right due to NHL Transfer Agreement. Are you fine with it?

Not sure if you realize that that's not how junior hockey works in the Nordic countries. Not every top level club has juniors all the way down to youngest age groups. Dahlin for example hasn't played for Frölunda his entire hockey career. Elitprospects only goes as far as 2013-14 season but he played for HC Lidköping before getting accepted to Frölunda's hockey gymnasium. It's similar to Finland. For example, Aleksi Saarela, like his brother and father, began their hockey career in my hometown Laitila Jyske juniors, from where they moved to near by Rauma Lukko juniors at either C- or D-junior age. None of the coaches in my hometoen are full time coaches , they're all part timers, often father of a kid in their team, who to my knowledge don't get paid anything.

 

[Jussi]

Please complain to the FIFA. I just copy+paste their rules. If such rules are legal in soccer/football, I see no reason why it should be illegal in hockey.

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European football can't really be compared to hockey because first of all the there's way more money in the biggest sport in the planet and because instead of one big league, there's multiple leagues with multiple club vying for players, thus jacking up the transfer prices.

 

[Burke the Legend]

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European football can't really be compared to hockey because first of all the there's way more money in the biggest sport in the planet and because instead of one big league, there's multiple leagues with multiple club vying for players, thus jacking up the transfer prices.

How long do Euro soccer contracts last anyway? The transfer system always seemed pretty strange to me.

 

[NyQuil]

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European football can't really be compared to hockey because first of all the there's way more money in the biggest sport in the planet and because instead of one big league, there's multiple leagues with multiple club vying for players, thus jacking up the transfer prices.

The KHL was going to transform the hockey landscape, remember?

 

[Blue prez]

You do not get the point that transfer rules should be the same for all leagues in the world. And yes, I do agree there should be a mechanism of development fee, can be similar to NHL Transfer Agreement. So, all clubs in the world have quaranteed sum of money for development of a player. In soccer it is until he is 23y, in some cases U21. But, all clubs should have a right, except to a development fee, to request some more bucks if a player in under contract and wants to leave early. Of course that the NHL does not want to pay. I do blame the IIHF and national hockey federations for status quo. Now they are victims of this broken system. Hats off to the KHL (not Russian Hockey Fed) & Swiss who refused to accept such conditions. The EHC talks about changing of the system, see, but I do not trust them. The most important reason is that they do not cooperate with the KHL on the issue.

Well, to bad for this leagues.
In football, smaller clubs can negotiate the transfer fee just because there is a market: several big clubs, most often - from different countries.
In hockey, there is a monopoly of one single NHL club who drafted this player. If european club wants some more: they could just ignore their demands and wait for his contract to end, without risk of losing the rights player ( it won't take much time to wait, cause european prospect are interested in NHL, simply because of money; besides, NHL managers can cooperate and allow rights for drafted european players to last longer)

NHL has Much more revenue than european leagues, even oilsucking KHL. So they accomodate.

 

[vorky]

Well, to bad for this leagues.
In football, smaller clubs can negotiate the transfer fee just because there is a market: several big clubs, most often - from different countries.
In hockey, there is a monopoly of one single NHL club who drafted this player. If european club wants some more: they could just ignore their demands and wait for his contract to end, without risk of losing the rights player ( it won't take much time to wait, cause european prospect are interested in NHL, simply because of money; besides, NHL managers can cooperate and allow rights for drafted european players to last longer)

NHL has Much more revenue than european leagues, even oilsucking KHL. So they accomodate.

which is here because of transfer rules, the same tranfer rules, for all leagues in the world. And that is the point.

 

[jniklast]

Could become expensive in hockey if a player doesn't perform but they are certainly free to try although excessively long contracts might be frowned upon by local courts in western countries and not recognized in other jurisdictions (I believe the Russians tried something like that with Malkin).

Yeah that's the "problem" for sports clubs, unlike pilots, where most succeed, only very few players actually pan out. When a pilot leaves an airline early, they have to pay for their education. The same is kind of true for hockey players that get a transfer fee, but that doesn't pay for all those others that didn't make it.

 

[Mestaruus]

and btw ... soccer
Someone in this thread called soccer over here "cancer" and he/she's right. It gets all the broadcasting time. It's cheaper. There's a club around every corner. Every other sports tv representation declined while soccer gets more time in tv every year. Every other sport is slowly degraded into a niche, while even 3rd league soccer is broadcasted live. It's that bad and it will stay that way.

Many countries got this problem though. Let's take Lithuania and basketball. They aren't good at much else but really good in basketball.

Opposite is Norway. I think that Norway's secret along with endless amount of money invested in sports and some questionable methods in skiing (asthma medicine doping) is that they don't have a big team sport sucking a lot of their talents. I know that they are decent in handball and have interest in soccer but I don't think it's a problem over there like in some other countries and you can see the results in the Winter Olympics.

I guess that Germany is a bit different with 82 mil population and it's a shame that they can't find a way to have like 1-2 million of those people as registered ice hockey players. They would be same level as Finland in hockey then. Maybe a big star like Draisaitl and this success with national hockey team can make it happen. I hope so.

 

[Frannel]

So why do other winter sports "perform" so much better .. like Biathlon although they also do have a change in in personal/stars.

Because these kinds of sports are considered amateur in Germany. For athletes that are very good in their youth in these sports the ministry of interior has a special "funding" program. They get a job as police officers or with the army and get their salaries but aren't serving until they retire from sports. So they get money from the state for a job they do not really do but for training instead. Sports like soccer, handball or hockey are considered pro-sports. The government does not offer the same kind of funding for them, instead it's the clubs that have to pay for the training and the athletes have to earn their costs of living by actually working....

 

[Urbanskog]

I guess that Germany is a bit different with 82 mil population and it's a shame that they can't find a way to have like 1-2 million of those people as registered ice hockey players. They would be same level as Finland in hockey then. Maybe a big star like Draisaitl and this success with national hockey team can make it happen. I hope so.

What? Finland has 76k registered players.

 

[Jussi]

which is here because of transfer rules, the same tranfer rules, for all leagues in the world. And that is the point.

Transfer rules didn't create the market, it was there before there were many of the current rules in place. Hockey is a smaller sport and the market is smaller and controlled by the players and NHl. In football it's a triangle of clubs, agents and players.

 

[vorky]

Transfer rules didn't create the market, it was there before there were many of the current rules in place. Hockey is a smaller sport and the market is smaller and controlled by the players and NHl. In football it's a triangle of clubs, agents and players.

Of course, the rules have developped for last half of century or more. The point is that soccer´s main idea has alway been - the same transfer rules for all leagues. Btw, hockey had something similar, try to ask Mr. Kuperman. Of course the NHL started to misuse their dominant position in early 90´s or even a few seasons earlier. The result is current status quo. The IIHF and national hockey federations have failed since 90´s.

There is only one solution - IIHF, National Feds, EHC and KHL must work together to achieve more fair transfer rules with the NHL. And of course, the same rules would be applicable between IIHF clubs as well, The same rules, be it a NLAer to the NHL or the NHLer to NLA. No retirement & similar nonsense.

1. development fee - quaranteed for every club who develops prospects since U12 to U18/U20
2.transfer fee - if a guy is under contract in IIHF league or NHL, his current team can negotiate with a buyer, agreed on transfer fee. And the player wants to sign with this new team.
3.Outclauses should be limited and respect good manners. All Liiga players can not have KHL-out-clauses allowing them to leave the team without compensation for his previous team. And of course, the same case, but out clause is 100 mil USD. That is not good manners if speaking about hockey.

 

[Jussi]

How long do Euro soccer contracts last anyway? The transfer system always seemed pretty strange to me.

Usually 3-5 years, depending on the player's age and value. The lesser players sign shorter.

 

[Jussi]

Of course, the rules have developped for last half of century or more. The point is that soccer´s main idea has alway been - the same transfer rules for all leagues. Btw, hockey had something similar, try to ask Mr. Kuperman. Of course the NHL started to misuse their dominant position in early 90´s or even a few seasons earlier. The result is current status quo. The IIHF and national hockey federations have failed since 90´s.

There is only one solution - IIHF, National Feds, EHC and KHL must work together to achieve more fair transfer rules with the NHL. And of course, the same rules would be applicable between IIHF clubs as well, The same rules, be it a NLAer to the NHL or the NHLer to NLA. No retirement & similar nonsense.

1. development fee - quaranteed for every club who develops prospects since U12 to U18/U20
2.transfer fee - if a guy is under contract in IIHF league or NHL, his current team can negotiate with a buyer, agreed on transfer fee. And the player wants to sign with this new team.
3.Outclauses should be limited and respect good manners. All Liiga players can not have KHL-out-clauses allowing them to leave the team without compensation for his previous team. And of course, the same case, but out clause is 100 mil USD. That is not good manners if speaking about hockey.

When the players are on control of the market and the NHL knows it and the instances you mentioned can't do anything to change it, there's not going to be any changes. They don't have any leverage.

 

[Ducks76]

Many countries got this problem though. Let's take Lithuania and basketball. They aren't good at much else but really good in basketball.

Opposite is Norway. I think that Norway's secret along with endless amount of money invested in sports and some questionable methods in skiing (asthma medicine doping) is that they don't have a big team sport sucking a lot of their talents. I know that they are decent in handball and have interest in soccer but I don't think it's a problem over there like in some other countries and you can see the results in the Winter Olympics.

I guess that Germany is a bit different with 82 mil population and it's a shame that they can't find a way to have like 1-2 million of those people as registered ice hockey players. They would be same level as Finland in hockey then. Maybe a big star like Draisaitl and this success with national hockey team can make it happen. I hope so.

The problem is that this succes on olympics come to the wrong time. Why? This year the football(soccer) world championship takes place. When Germany could defend their title(is nt surreal)then i fear this hockey success ends as footnote. Football eat all Team-Sports in Germany!

 

[stv11]

This went way off topic.