GDT: Quarterfinal - February 21 - Sweden (3) vs Germany (4) OT

[Bure80]

German Olympic Sports Confederation wants to spent less money on not so succesful sports at these Olympics. (for example Speed Skating).
Maybe hockey gets more.
Recently they showed much NFL Maybe NHL will follow. Atleast they showed two Oilers games in free TV.

 

[TorstenFrings]

We’re still waiting.

I actually play more soccer now than hockey.

We have terrible coaching in this country as it’s largely a participation sport as opposed to a competitive one. We have a lot of unqualified coaches (parents).

But we love to watch good teams play

It's a lot of parent coaches in the early years everywhere. You just need to wait a couple generations until the parent coaches have some more experience playing themselves, incl. at some higher level.

And get Paul Stalteri involved. He is the only Canadian soccer play I know.

 

[Bure80]

We have terrible coaching in this country as it’s largely a participation sport as opposed to a competitive one. We have a lot of unqualified coaches (parents).

Dont know if im right with this. Maybe the Canadian system was to much influenced from the English system.
Where athleticism was more important as individual skills. The UK changed that over the last years. Maybe Canada will follow.

 

[CpatainCanuck]

Old generations last hurray!

There is a reason these players play this kind of game.

Yes, the Swedish national hockey team Tre Kronor has officially stated (years ago) a need for a new kind of player; one which does not dump and chase but plays a puck possession game where individual skill is emphasized already at junior level.

Individual skill does matter.

This years Tre Kronor was the last hurray for the older and less individually skilled type of player. They are not bad players by any stretch, they are tactically skilled perfect cogs in the old style. They are war-machines.

Rasmus Dahlin is perhaps the poster boy for the new generation and not really representative of the new collective (he is an anomaly in some sense, he started skating at 2yrs old, I could not even walk at that age, Connor McDavid started at 3yrs). The new generation, as far as I can tell, is better symbolized by Elias Petterson or Adam Bokvist lets say.

Creativity, hockey IQ (what ever that is), technical skill, skating and so forth.

It was telling that in an interview with one of the Swedish defence-men during training, he wanted to be a tutor for Rasmus but found himself rather being tutored about things by the 17 year old youngster instead.

I am not sure that this was/is a correct description of the interview but it was the feeling I got from it. There seems to be a great divide between the old generation and the young and qualitatively different generation represented by Rasmus Dahlin.

This game showed that the old generation is slowly fading and that the generational shift is going to be painful.

Hmm, when I think of the "Old Guard" of Swedish players I think of the Sedins, Zetterberg, Sundin, Forsberg, Lidstrom...basically the opposite of dump and chase hockey.

 

[Jussi]

NHL pays for players from Europe, a tiny sum. Of course NHL should pay, how much revenue dont you think Frölunda loose when Rasmus moves to NHL? The team who drafts Dahlin should pay 950k*3 dollars to sign him and move him from Sweden, we need the money for return of investment and loss of future income.
Dont wanna pay? Dont draft...

Exactly how much have Frölunda invested in Dahlin's development compared to his parents?

 

[Abraham de Lacy]

Hmm, when I think of the "Old Guard" of Swedish players I think of the Sedins, Zetterberg, Sundin, Forsberg, Lidstrom...basically the opposite of dump and chase hockey.

That is a great rebuttal.

Yes, these individuals had the skill set to play differently, but the core of Swedish hockey .. for the 'old guard' was to play dump and chase. It was the central idea of Swedish hockey.

 

[EK47]

That is a great rebuttal.

Yes, these individuals had the skill set to play differently, but the core of Swedish hockey .. for the 'old guard' was to play dump and chase. It was the central idea of Swedish hockey.

I don’t quite think we’ve been watching the same national team. Sweden is and has always been a possesion team, the problem is that Grönborg likes his teams to dump and chase, play with a lot of energy and so forth. This is forcing him to partly pick inferior role players because he doesn’t know how to coach a possesion team, and partly causing him to play his best players in a way they are not comfortable with.

 

[LemmyUlanov55]

It is happening right now.
Only players that would be better than Draisaitl is Karlsson and Backstrom.

More funding and they will most likely overtake the Scandinavian countries.

I wish this was true. 90% of the money in german sports goes around in football. This ain't going to change in the future, although there's progress with people like Sturm in charge.

 

[SanderSen]

We’re still waiting.

I actually play more soccer now than hockey.

We have terrible coaching in this country as it’s largely a participation sport as opposed to a competitive one. We have a lot of unqualified coaches (parents).

But we love to watch good teams play

Participation activity is about right. The number of pro players per 1,000 players was said on sports radio a few months ago and Canada is so low it is a joke, way behind small Caribbean countries.

 

[KLM-Line]

Even though todays result was great for german hockey (and hockey fans), I don't think it will start a hype over here. And to be honest, I think a bronze medal is the best we can achieve. Some people's dreams of gold are way out of reach.

The reasons, why there will be no hockey boom in germany, are

1. soccer
2. soccer
3. soccer
4. the costs of playing hockey vs. soccer
5. soccer
6. You probably need at least an hour to reach your training rink (if there's any)
7. and btw ... soccer

Someone in this thread called soccer over here "cancer" and he/she's right. It gets all the broadcasting time. It's cheaper. There's a club around every corner. Every other sports tv representation declined while soccer gets more time in tv every year. Every other sport is slowly degraded into a niche, while even 3rd league soccer is broadcasted live. It's that bad and it will stay that way.

So why do other winter sports "perform" so much better .. like Biathlon although they also do have a change in in personal/stars. I grew up loving ice hockey (international) and cared about the national league. Nowadays I don't even know the current national champion and rather take notice of German talants proper for the NHL.
Just take note that I played elite soccer at Landshut whle their hockey team were relevant in Garmany. The promotion, struture and media work for German icehockey is just terribad.

 

[Oilers Propagandist]

I wish this was true. 90% of the money in german sports goes around in football. This ain't going to change in the future, although there's progress with people like Sturm in charge.

While true, Draisaitl is looking amazing and if he keeps performing the way he is for his career, that would definitely be a player the younger kids would look up too. Idk, would never happen in my lifetime but would love to see hockey superpowers everywhere. lol

 

[Aahlstroem]

Did Fredrik Pettersson have an injury or was he just benched?

Benched.

 

[vorky]

Exactly how much have Frölunda invested in Dahlin's development compared to his parents?

The key point is that Dahlin would not be able to become a hockey player if he did not play at a hockey club. Of course, he could be trained by professionals or amateurs, who are paid by his parents, on a pond somewhere in Sweden. I ask you, is this the case with Dahlin? And I hope you will reply. So, the most important thing is that Frolunda gave him an opportunity to play at their youth teams, trained by their coaches, playing some SWE competitions - some kind of know-how. And that is not for free. Even if his parents paid billions of dollars for his development, the club gave him much more to become a player how he is.

Return of investment as said above - it is not only bucks which the club invested into his development (a training compensation/development fee). It includes also his future value (sport & marketing) as a professional hockey player. And the club should have right to request as much money as the club considers as appropriate compensation for losing him to another club. Note, Frolunda does NOT have such right due to NHL Transfer Agreement. Are you fine with it?

 

[Slimmy]

Exactly how much have Frölunda invested in Dahlin's development compared to his parents?

I had the exact number a while back but I believe it's in the range of half a mil SEK that Frölunda pays for Dahlin to attend the hockey gymnasium. Apart from that, i have no idea. But remember that Dahlin is one of the few who actually made it. What the investment for Frölunda is contra the number of players that actually become regulars on the squad, I do not know.

 

[Deficient Mode]

NHL pays for players from Europe, a tiny sum. Of course NHL should pay, how much revenue dont you think Frölunda loose when Rasmus moves to NHL? The team who drafts Dahlin should pay 950k*3 dollars to sign him and move him from Sweden, we need the money for return of investment and loss of future income.
Dont wanna pay? Dont draft...

I suppose it's no less ridiculous an idea than the IOC compensating the NHL owners for "schedule disruption" and "borrowing their talent" which an incredibly large group of the posters on this forum appear to support.

 

[Deficient Mode]

German Olympic Sports Confederation wants to spent less money on not so succesful sports at these Olympics. (for example Speed Skating).
Maybe hockey gets more.
Recently they showed much NFL Maybe NHL will follow. Atleast they showed two Oilers games in free TV.

Men's ice hockey would be a terrible investment for the likely medal yield for any Olympic federation if the NHL ever goes again. The sport is well developed and the talent pool is very deep, you need 20 high quality players to medal, and in the end it only counts as one medal.

 

[howkie]

I suppose it's no less ridiculous an idea than the IOC compensating the NHL owners for "schedule disruption" and "borrowing their talent" which an incredibly large group of the posters on this forum appear to support.

Did I say IiHf was good shoul have added IOC in that sentence

 

[Blue prez]

The key point is that Dahlin would not be able to become a hockey player if he did not play at a hockey club. Of course, he could be trained by professionals or amateurs, who are paid by his parents, on a pond somewhere in Sweden. I ask you, is this the case with Dahlin? And I hope you will reply. So, the most important thing is that Frolunda gave him an opportunity to play at their youth teams, trained by their coaches, playing some SWE competitions - some kind of know-how. And that is not for free. Even if his parents paid billions of dollars for his development, the club gave him much more to become a player how he is.

Return of investment as said above - it is not only bucks which the club invested into his development (a training compensation/development fee). It includes also his future value (sport & marketing) as a professional hockey player. And the club should have right to request as much money as the club considers as appropriate compensation for losing him to another club. Note, Frolunda does NOT have such right due to NHL Transfer Agreement. Are you fine with it?

Yes, they actually are.
Because if they were no transfer agreement, they would have NOTHING.
Prospect can leave Sweden to play CHL or NCAA.
Prospect can decline a longterm contract offer from his club and depart in NHL as a free agent.
Prospect can negotiate an imperative individual NHL clause, and go to virtually every european club which woud accept this clause in his contract.

Swedish clubs doesn't have oil/gas sucking corporations as patrons, so they can't just offer cash for 2-3 years of loyalty, as KHL teams do. They earn money to reinvest it in hockey system. Of course they are eager to earn more, but that's the matter of negotiations on new agreement.

 

[Blue prez]

The key point is that Dahlin would not be able to become a hockey player if he did not play at a hockey club. Of course, he could be trained by professionals or amateurs, who are paid by his parents, on a pond somewhere in Sweden. I ask you, is this the case with Dahlin? And I hope you will reply. So, the most important thing is that Frolunda gave him an opportunity to play at their youth teams, trained by their coaches, playing some SWE competitions - some kind of know-how. And that is not for free. Even if his parents paid billions of dollars for his development, the club gave him much more to become a player how he is.

Return of investment as said above - it is not only bucks which the club invested into his development (a training compensation/development fee). It includes also his future value (sport & marketing) as a professional hockey player. And the club should have right to request as much money as the club considers as appropriate compensation for losing him to another club. Note, Frolunda does NOT have such right due to NHL Transfer Agreement. Are you fine with it?

The interesting fact is: swedish clubs get equal sum for every player, regardless of how promising they are (if i'm not mistaken). So, SHL supplies North America with a lot of fringe players for the very good price. And these players hardly possess lots of marketing prospect in Sweden as well.

 

[Blue prez]

So, why wasn’t Elias Pettersson on this team again?

I like Elias Pettersson's like

 

[vorky]

You do not get the point that transfer rules should be the same for all leagues in the world. And yes, I do agree there should be a mechanism of development fee, can be similar to NHL Transfer Agreement. So, all clubs in the world have quaranteed sum of money for development of a player. In soccer it is until he is 23y, in some cases U21. But, all clubs should have a right, except to a development fee, to request some more bucks if a player in under contract and wants to leave early. Of course that the NHL does not want to pay. I do blame the IIHF and national hockey federations for status quo. Now they are victims of this broken system. Hats off to the KHL (not Russian Hockey Fed) & Swiss who refused to accept such conditions. The EHC talks about changing of the system, see, but I do not trust them. The most important reason is that they do not cooperate with the KHL on the issue.

Yes, they actually are.
Because if they were no transfer agreement, they would have NOTHING.
Prospect can leave Sweden to play CHL or NCAA.
Prospect can decline a longterm contract offer from his club and depart in NHL as a free agent.
Prospect can negotiate an imperative individual NHL clause, and go to virtually every european club which woud accept this clause in his contract.

Swedish clubs doesn't have oil/gas sucking corporations as patrons, so they can't just offer cash for 2-3 years of loyalty, as KHL teams do. They earn money to reinvest it in hockey system. Of course they are eager to earn more, but that's the matter of negotiations on new agreement.

The interesting fact is: swedish clubs get equal sum for every player, regardless of how promising they are (if i'm not mistaken). So, SHL supplies North America with a lot of fringe players for the very good price. And these players hardly possess lots of marketing prospect in Sweden as well.

 

[Burke the Legend]

The key point is that Dahlin would not be able to become a hockey player if he did not play at a hockey club. Of course, he could be trained by professionals or amateurs, who are paid by his parents, on a pond somewhere in Sweden. I ask you, is this the case with Dahlin? And I hope you will reply. So, the most important thing is that Frolunda gave him an opportunity to play at their youth teams, trained by their coaches, playing some SWE competitions - some kind of know-how. And that is not for free. Even if his parents paid billions of dollars for his development, the club gave him much more to become a player how he is.

Return of investment as said above - it is not only bucks which the club invested into his development (a training compensation/development fee). It includes also his future value (sport & marketing) as a professional hockey player. And the club should have right to request as much money as the club considers as appropriate compensation for losing him to another club. Note, Frolunda does NOT have such right due to NHL Transfer Agreement. Are you fine with it?

So what? Frolunda doesn't own him. In Canada lots of players have training they don't pay for, in grade schools, or in subsidized municipal programs. Only in sports do people get these strange ideas about player servitude. Should a doctor who studies goes to medical school at a subsidized state university or with a scholarship be obligated to work there or does he not have the right to move somewhere else and practice? How about skilled technician? You are basically advocating for medieval style serfdom obligations on labour where a minor has to sign some kind of lifetime contract with his club who then controls his movement in his sport.

 

[vorky]

So what? Frolunda doesn't own him. In Canada lots of players have training they don't pay for, in grade schools, or in subsidized municipal programs. Only in sports do people get these strange ideas about player servitude. Should a doctor who studies goes to medical school at a subsidized state university or with a scholarship be obligated to work there or does he not have the right to move somewhere else and practice? How about skilled technician? You are basically advocating for medieval style serfdom obligations on labour where a minor has to sign some kind of lifetime contract with his club who then controls his movement in his sport.

Please complain to the FIFA. I just copy+paste their rules. If such rules are legal in soccer/football, I see no reason why it should be illegal in hockey.

 

[jniklast]

So what? Frolunda doesn't own him. In Canada lots of players have training they don't pay for, in grade schools, or in subsidized municipal programs. Only in sports do people get these strange ideas about player servitude. Should a doctor who studies goes to medical school at a subsidized state university or with a scholarship be obligated to work there or does he not have the right to move somewhere else and practice? How about skilled technician? You are basically advocating for medieval style serfdom obligations on labour where a minor has to sign some kind of lifetime contract with his club who then controls his movement in his sport.

The examples you bring up are all tax supported education or training. It is in the interest of governments to have highly skilled workers (be they doctors, scientists or whatever) because they are important for the economy and bring in more tax money. Also you have to pay a tuition fee in many places.
When private businesses train their highly skilled employees themselves, then usually they bind them to long contracts. That's what airlines do with pilots for example.

 

[Burke the Legend]

When private businesses train their highly skilled employees themselves, then usually they bind them to long contracts. That's what airlines do with pilots for example.

Could become expensive in hockey if a player doesn't perform but they are certainly free to try although excessively long contracts might be frowned upon by local courts in western countries and not recognized in other jurisdictions (I believe the Russians tried something like that with Malkin).