Post-Game Talk: PS#2 | 09/19/18 | Rangers vs Flyers... something I want to say

[TheDirtyH]

This is also very nice appeal to authority. Keep going.

So, that isn't really very much of an appeal to authority. Citing a single credible expert is definitely an appeal to authority. Citing even just a few credible experts is an appeal to authority. But the more experts you cite, the greater the weight the argument holds and the less of a logical fallacy it is. So much so to the point where it nearly disappears. We're still talking about a probabilistic argument, granted, so it's not 100%. Simply because this is all really a matter of opinion. I just want you to be aware of how on the fringe your opinion really is.

Moreover, in arguments about players I have almost never seen someone not appeal to authority. Like, how do you argue without doing that? Tawnos is appealing to a certain authority in professional player, coach, and management opinion throughout decades of the sport's existence. Machinehead is often appealing to a different authority (even more explicitly) in particular data and stats.

(TBH I lost where/what the argument is specifically about bc as usual most of the talk is trying to invalidate the other person's 'logic' or 'reasoning.' It's exhausting bc that whole effort produces nothing at all: we come to find out that in 2018 human being still haven't established a method of absolute truth and still have no access to any actual objectivity. An interesting topic of thought, but what about the game of hockey??)

 

[TheDirtyH]

On that, I didn't think Smith was all that good... He was OK, not bad. DeAngelo looked like our best defenseman. The only one who could make consistent plays up ice until Hajek found his legs in the 3rd.

I also thought Chytil did not look ready to be a top-9 center in the NHL. But I wonder if playing with Vesey will do that to someone.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

So we want Hajek to become Stralman.

He seems to have better offensive instincts.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

Two preseason games seems to have swayed some opinions on ADA.

Prior to these games I kind of felt to be mostly alone in my opinion that he could/should make the NHL playing roster.

I for one was with you all along. And I was pretty vocal about it.

 

[JimmyG89]

Pionk is just as bad defensively at this point in their careers. Probably worse.

Pionk was riding that Girardi level CorsiRel% last year, but put up 14 points in 28 games.

He should be in the AHL at this point, and this is coming from someone who isn't the biggest Adam McQuaid fan.

Left: Skjei, Smith, Staal
Right: Shatty, ADA, McQuaid
Extra: Claesson

Let ADA eat 20 min a night in the NHL and let Pionk eat 20 min a night n the AHL.

It's honestly amazing the amount of people who are on the Pionk wagon.

 

[RangerLifer]

He darn sure aint here and wasnt worth much for the vast majority of his nhl career so far

The guy (Gilroy) is a defenseman so they develop much more slowly than forwards. I think a little patience and he'll be fine.

 

[will1066]

I don't question Pionk's compete level, but he gets overpowered a lot at this level.

 

[The S5]

Pionk was riding that Girardi level CorsiRel% last year, but put up 14 points in 28 games.

He should be in the AHL at this point, and this is coming from someone who isn't the biggest Adam McQuaid fan.

Left: Skjei, Smith, Staal
Right: Shatty, ADA, McQuaid
Extra: Claesson

Let ADA eat 20 min a night in the NHL and let Pionk eat 20 min a night n the AHL.

It's honestly amazing the amount of people who are on the Pionk wagon.

Is your assessment of Pionk based solely on Corsi?
While Pionk isn't quite the skater that ADA is, he is tougher, has a better shot and puts up points.
I'm not saying he isn't without faults. He needs to get stronger in front of his own goal, but without question, he is better in the defensive end than ADA.

 

[Machinehead]

Is your assessment of Pionk based solely on Corsi?
While Pionk isn't quite the skater that ADA is, he is tougher, has a better shot and puts up points.
I'm not saying he isn't without faults. He needs to get stronger in front of his own goal, but without question, he is better in the defensive end than ADA.

Every stat under the sun says Pionk is bad in his own zone, not just corsi.

 

[EpicDing]

Every stat under the sun says Pionk is bad in his own zone, not just corsi.

Even the eye test, really. I don't know shit about fancy stats (trying to learn though) and I always thought he was a bit of an adventure in his own end.

 

[Krams]

Is your assessment of Pionk based solely on Corsi?
While Pionk isn't quite the skater that ADA is, he is tougher, has a better shot and puts up points.
I'm not saying he isn't without faults. He needs to get stronger in front of his own goal, but without question, he is better in the defensive end than ADA.

If you're going to make definitive statements like this, then back it up somehow. Otherwise, it's nothing more than your unsubstantiated opinion, which holds less weight than an assessment based solely on Corsi because at least that's measurable. For me, the possession metrics align with what I see on the ice--Pionk struggles to move the puck up ice out of the D-zone 5v5, whereas DeAngelo makes good stretch passes and can carry the puck out of the zone with some regularity. DeAngelo struggles a bit more than Pionk on the rush 1 on 1 and can look foolish at times, and I think that tends to skew perception of the bigger picture.

 

[JimmyG89]

Is your assessment of Pionk based solely on Corsi?
While Pionk isn't quite the skater that ADA is, he is tougher, has a better shot and puts up points.
I'm not saying he isn't without faults. He needs to get stronger in front of his own goal, but without question, he is better in the defensive end than ADA.

That's the only assessment that I brought up. There are others, and a lot of them, that speak to how he wasn't that good.

Was he playing over his head? Sure he was. He was being fed top pairing minutes. That could have something to do with it, but from what I saw the other night, it didn't look good. I'll wait and see how is 2nd game is, and he most likely gets 1 more after that. ADA in his 1st two looked like a guy ready for a top 4 role.

 

[Machinehead]

Even the eye test, really. I don't know **** about fancy stats (trying to learn though) and I always thought he was a bit of an adventure in his own end.

Yeah I don't know what people are seeing with Pionk. Girardi I got, because you saw the effort and the blocked shots. Not sure what Pionk does to pass the eye test.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

In a perfect world both Pionk and DeAngelo make it.

I don't see why people are so convinced that it has to be one or the other.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Yeah I don't know what people are seeing with Pionk. Girardi I got, because you saw the effort and the blocked shots. Not sure what Pionk does to pass the eye test.

Pionk is OT Jesus.

No for real, he's $3 on 3.

 

[Fvital92]

Yeah I don't know what people are seeing with Pionk. Girardi I got, because you saw the effort and the blocked shots. Not sure what Pionk does to pass the eye test.

Points. And the fact that we mainly compare him to DeAngelo, who is a guy known for controversial opinions.

 

[Edge]

Admitedly, I'm not quite as high on Pionk as some.

IMO, if he progresses, he looks like a third pairing defenseman on a better team.

That's not meant as an insult, I just don't quite see the top-4 potential that some do.

 

[Larrybiv]

Did he really play 21 minutes?

Probably 12 too many. All kidding aside, when players like Keane, Belesky and Letteri (and I like Vinny) outplay him, well then he better wake the eff up. I think Vesey's spot may be up for grabs. If any of the rooks that arent expected to make the club, have an awesome next 4 games well then......Vesey may find himself on Hartford. I like Vesey (even though I sometimes wanna punch his rat looking like face), so heed my words kid.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Probably 12 too many. All kidding aside, when players like Keane, Belesky and Letteri (and I like Vinny) outplay him, well then he better wake the eff up. I think Vesey's spot may be up for grabs. If any of the rooks that arent expected to make the club, have an awesome next 4 games well then......Vesey may find himself on Hartford. I like Vesey (even though I sometimes wanna punch his rat looking like face), so heed my words kid.

I doubt Vesey is claimed off wiavers at his current cap-hit if they send him down so he will probably be in the organization regardless of what happens

 

[Larrybiv]

I like Quinn riding his best guys. Did it last game too. Good stuff

Along with that, it is "very apparent" that this is NOT an AV led club. Already more in-between whistle play. I LOVE IT! Every team that played us last year KNEW we wouldn't retaliate in any way. Hurts the bonding of a team when you don't look out for your teammates. Just LOOK what Smith did for Gilmour. Did that happen last year? Maybe twice? You just have to have that......who cares about an extra 2 minutes? This isn't the PO's. It goes a much longer way than just 2 minutes in the box. Beleskey probably will make the team and play mostly against higher aggressive teams. Im okay with that.

P.S. Smitty will be our most solid dman this year......book it.

 

[Larrybiv]

after 2 games I just don't see any commitment to playing physical. both games Rangers got outhit. This team really lacks grit. They need to stop acquiring soft players. Start trading some soft players for some physical ones. I don't know what was the reason giving Skjei a 6 year contract over 5 mil, should have been given a 2 year bridge he is a 3 or 4 million player, his 1st full season was likely a fluke.

I missed what happened to Spooner?

I beg to differ. The Rangers have been KNOWN for NOT locking up younger high potential players. The Rangers obviously view him as a wannabe McD. I see it sometimes, he is very ypung and easily a 3-4, but maybe the nice contract propels him into being MORE and bringing out MORE. He is a high character kid, and I have no problem with that contract. Remember McD's discounted contract? Wasnt it 4.25 mil for 6? Not sure.

 

[East Coast Bias]

Pionk gave up a ton of shots, a ton of scoring chances, and got elite Hank goaltending numbers. It was a small sample so maybe he is better this year.

But If that’s the formula for peak Pionk, it’s prob not gonna end well.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

The guy (Gilroy) is a defenseman so they develop much more slowly than forwards. I think a little patience and he'll be fine.

I think it's reasonable to say that he's been in the league long enough and underwhelmed significantly enough that my past comment is valid. I didn't say he doesnt belong in the league but i cant think of a single way to argue he's come within spitting distance of having lived up to his hype. My post was only about not getting crazy excited for these guys that's all. If we had bottom pair/3rd line expectations for all these guys it wouldn't be so bad.

Anyway gilroy is like 34 and after getting demoted to the ahl by the Panthers 4 years ago he went to the khl. I think it's gt be you busting balls by playing the "give him time to develop" card. Here i was tjinking he was like 28, 29 and was with the rangers recently. Christ almighty time is moving fast

 

[E-Train]

The opening night roster I expect will be plenty physical. I don't need guys, especially vets, going all out in a preseason game. Kreider, Fast, Andersson, Beleskey, DeAngelo, Smith, McQuaid all play a physical style. Even Buch shows a lot of feistiness. Physical hockey won't be anywhere near a problem as winning games will be for this squad.

 

[Kovalev27]

Vesey has gotten progressively worse since his rookie year and that’s alarming. I don’t think he improves this year. I think he takes another step backwards.