Proof is in the Pudding - John Tavares

[Maple Leaf]

I was a big fan of this signing until he started slowing the game down
Jason Allisonesque

 

[Pi]

Yikes. Take a course in how to use statistics properly. Plenty of universities offering free online courses right now.

 

[Pi]

Doesn't matter how you tell teh story the fact of the matter is:

2 years of JT contract are done' with 5 more to go. I expect JT to not accomplish much in the last 3 yrs of his contract.

So 2 yrs of JT is ruined by abysmal management of the roster with AHL level D-men playing, hoping Freddy to play like prime hasek and expecting miracles on ice.

When babcock had said there will be pain; I did not expect this!

This is self inflicted pain

He has never done that man.

I feel like some of you never watch hockey outside of Leaf games.

Watch Demko the past 2 games against Vegas. That is Hasek level goaltending and on the verge of stealing a series.

Andersen at his best, is still a very inconsistent goalie. He's top ~15.

 

[Pi]

The only real complaint one could have with JT is that he can't validate $11 mil salary as he isn't one of the top 5 players in the game and never will be so his cap hit >>> his contribution.

His signing cost the Leafs their 1st round pick 13th overall as it triggered the need to free cap space for others, but trading Kapanen has returned that pick for now anyways.

His contract acted as a magnet that drew other players up to his so now we have 3 X $11 mil players as a result as JT contract off the ice and his impact on inflating Marner's stats resulted in a vast overpayment for Mitch where he should have been an $8-$8.5 mil player and not $11 mil.

If Matthews was at $11.5 mil X 8 and JT was $9.5 mil X 7 and Marner was at $8.5 mil X 8 the Leafs wouldn't find themselves in Cap Hell and now struggling to qualify for the playoffs. IMO

False, that pick was because of Marleau's contract given by Lou. Matthews was always going to get ~11M. Marner was the overpayment.

Leafs are not in "cap hell," as that would mean they have a bunch of immovable contracts. There is not a single player on this team that couldn't be moved tomorrow if the Leafs put them on the market (obviously excluding players with NTC/NMC).

Marner is overpaid so you may not get as much back for him as you would if he were 8.5M but you can bet that he can easily be traded.

 

[Stephen]

Remember folks. The same ppl who hate everything the Leafs do are the same ppl who hated on the Raps. The same people who hated the Derozan/Kawhi deal and were the same people celebrating when the Raps won. They play both sides of the fence so pay them no mind.

What you're describing sounds a lot like people having positive emotional responses to positive things and negative emotional responses to negative things...

 

[moon111]

Tavares does come in two and a half million dollars cheaper then Patrice Bergeron and David Pastrnak combined.
And I'm sure that'll look even better a few years from now.

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

How about Tavares signed for free, Kadri still the 3rd line center, and Marner shipped out for assets or defensive help. There is no conceivable possible scenario where adding a franchise centre isn't the best possible move. Like ever.

That's where it's tough. While you're right you'd be crazy not to add a franchise C for only $$$, like LeBron said, w"too heavy as ****". With the amount of money we're paying up front we've become a one trick pony. Unfortunately, we've seen now that one trick pony can be shut down. I would much rather have a franchise D or a couple of really good D men than JT right now. But like I said, your right because you can't guarantee that you'll be able to sign a franchise D through FA. So you take what you can I guess.

 

[Machinae]

That's where it's tough. While you're right you'd be crazy not to add a franchise C for only $$$, like LeBron said, w"too heavy as ****". With the amount of money we're paying up front we've become a one trick pony. Unfortunately, we've seen now that one trick pony can be shut down. I would much rather have a franchise D or a couple of really good D men than JT right now. But like I said, your right because you can't guarantee that you'll be able to sign a franchise D through FA. So you take what you can I guess.

I agree they need a good dman, but if you ask me if I'd rather have a franchise C for free or keep my soft wingers who held out as hard as they could to fight for every cent they didn't deserve.. I'm ready for Nylander and Marner to both be shipped out for two way forwards and dmen because no matter what we have on the wings we still got Matthews AND Tavares.

 

[RoadWarrior]

Tavares does come in two and a half million dollars cheaper then Patrice Bergeron and David Pastrnak combined.
And I'm sure that'll look even better a few years from now.

The problem with Tavares is that for the $11M you're getting a goal consistent scorer who because of his skating deficiencies and lack of intensity cannot raise the level of his game in the playoffs as evidenced with his 0.11 Pts/G drop over his career in the post season.

 

[The Iceman]

One of the worst things I have ever read on these boards, and that's saying something.

I've actually started and backspaced this response so many times because I didn't know where to start.

You associate Tavares having the lowest on-ice save percentage among Leafs forwards with him having defensive deficiencies... yet you neglect to reference the disparity between his actual and expected GF% or acknowledge how faulty it is to blame one player for how his goaltender performed. This is plus/minus level analysis.

You use Totals stats instead of Rates stats.

You then assume the mantle of expert body language analyst by saying he was looking at the ground too much in post-elimination interviews.

Then you make some sort of asinine comparison between Tavares and Jake Gardiner, in some ill-conceived attempt to say they are too offense-first, based on your wrong and incomplete interpretation of team save percentage.

And your suggestion to fix things is to put Nylander (hahahaha of COURSE it's Nylander), a 30-goal, 70-point scorer on the third line so you can put some defensively responsible wingers on Tavares' wings, to fix these non-existent defensive issues?

I'm just speechless.

On the OP i was looking for a DISLIKE button but couldn't find one

 

[Wiseguys]

Didn't like the Taveras signing at the time. Reason being he has average speed at best. The game is getting quicker and the new players coming in our faster. He will have a harder time keeping up with still 5 years left on his contract. Tough contract to get out of, I think the cap will be flat for at least 3 to 4 years, due to the pandemic, not 2 years as being reported, That contract will be a burden as the years move on. I dont know if its been mentioned, series wins since the Tavares signing,

Toronto 0
Islanders 4

 

[ManosArriba]

Tavares does come in two and a half million dollars cheaper then Patrice Bergeron and David Pastrnak combined.
And I'm sure that'll look even better a few years from now.

Marner and Tavares' combined cap hit isn't too far off from Marchand Bergeron and Pasternak combined, one of the most dangerous lines in the NHL.

 

[Mats13]

Stopped reading at

“Tavares is a decent offensive player”

Ya okay buddy

 

[Mess]

I wonder if Tavares thinks he stepped into pudding by leaving NY, as the proof would be his former team going to where JT could never take them?

When your desire is to win the Cup and the team you leave has great playoff success while the team you join struggles to even qualify there has to be some regret and second guessing.

If JT had re-signed that opposite decision now with hindsight might have been in everyone's best interest. Then again perhaps his contract would have sunk the Isles like it has the Leafs.

If we could turn the clock back 2 years and have a re-do knowing the future now would things change with hindsight?

PS. That is not a slight against JT as he is a good player but it seemed to have fail to deliver the intended results for both himself and his new team.

 

[stickty111]

Didn't like the Taveras signing at the time. Reason being he has average speed at best. The game is getting quicker and the new players coming in our faster. He will have a harder time keeping up with still 5 years left on his contract. Tough contract to get out of, I think the cap will be flat for at least 3 to 4 years, due to the pandemic, not 2 years as being reported, That contract will be a burden as the years move on. I dont know if its been mentioned, series wins since the Tavares signing,

Toronto 0
Islanders 4

I get according to you and others it's all Tavares's fault Islanders weren't winning and now they are winning since he isn't there, but thats just wrong.

I don't know if this has been mentioned, series wins since Trotz arrived, 4 for the Islanders.

Lets stop blaming Tavares.

I love the Tavares contract, he will have an easier time catching up because his IQ is some of the best in the league. Easy contract to keep. That contract will be amazing as the years move on.

 

[stickty111]

Stopped reading at

“Tavares is a decent offensive player”

Ya okay buddy

Hilarious stuff. Just look at the post above yours saying the contract will be a burden

 

[moon111]

Think after decades of being a Leaf's fan, one thing that has changed is the love of the players. There's not a hope in hell I'd ever buy a jersey with a player's name on it. John Tavares seems like
a very nice guy but I don't care. He wanted to play for the Leafs. I don't care. He scores a lot of points. I don't care. All I want to see is the team win.

Tavares at even-strength during the playoffs:
- 18+ even-strength minutes per game in 12 games.
- 6 points. 1.19 points/60 Matt Martin's time with the Leafs finished at 1.15 points/60 in comparison. (Matt Martin btw is at 1.50 in this year's playoffs.)
- 8 goals scored with Tavares on the ice.
- 16 goals scored against with Tavares on the ice.
- $22 million spent.

I've criticized Mitch Marner for playing pond hockey in the playoffs. He went from 14 giveaways to 4. Without a power-forward to crack the CBJ's wall, he didn't produce much offense 5 on 5... but the fact is, he didn't cost them either. Marner made strides. Matthews made huge strides. They are all entering the league as offensive weapons. However, the playoffs are a different beast all together. Personally I think Tavares, despite being older, really hasn't all that much more experience with being in the playoffs and taking something away from it. I really don't understand how someone can look at the results and say Tavares has done great. Last two playoffs he comes in at 214th in points/60 but manages to be 62nd in goals against while only being in 12 games.

Wonder how opinions would change if Tavares was a Swede instead of a Mississauga native?

 

[6ix]

Tavares was a bust this season when looking at production vs 11 mil cap hit. I don’t understand ppl defending it and saying “he was still almost ppg!

Almost ppg is garbage and not good enough for an 11 mil cap hit. He did have a solid play in round but still missed glaring chances that need to be converted at crucial times.

He absolutely needs to be better otherwise this contract is an anchor by year 3 only... and there’s 5 years left on the deal.

 

[kb]

Tavares was a bust this season when looking at production vs 11 mil cap hit. I don’t understand ppl defending it and saying “he was still almost ppg!

Almost ppg is garbage and not good enough for an 11 mil cap hit. He did have a solid play in round but still missed glaring chances that need to be converted at crucial times.

He absolutely needs to be better otherwise this contract is an anchor by year 3 only... and there’s 5 years left on the deal.

PPG with a broken finger. Let's not forget that. It's a tough injury.

 

[Quickdraw2828]

The problem with Tavares is that for the $11M you're getting a goal consistent scorer who because of his skating deficiencies and lack of intensity cannot raise the level of his game in the playoffs as evidenced with his 0.11 Pts/G drop over his career in the post season.

Isles fan in peace. Nobody hates Tavares more than me, he's certainly slow but you can't question his intensity. He just has a somewhat brain dead look on his face that makes it look like he's not trying. He's a very intense player however.

 

[Stephen]

Here's a little John Tavares test:

Entering next season, assuming we have a normal 82 game season, 1) how confident are you in John Tavares to score around 40 goals and 85+ points 2) do you think he will outproduce Artemi Panarin or 3) are you preparing a lengthy response outlining how the above criteria is unfair?

 

[kb]

Here's a little John Tavares test:

Entering next season, assuming we have a normal 82 game season, 1) how confident are you in John Tavares to score around 40 goals and 85+ points 2) do you think he will outproduce Artemi Panarin or 3) are you preparing a lengthy response outlining how the above criteria is unfair?

Didn't see Panarin play centre to my knowledge.

85 points is fine by me, and I think it's entirely probable if he doesn't break a finger and then have to play through that.

 

[kb]

Here's a little John Tavares test:

Entering next season, assuming we have a normal 82 game season, 1) how confident are you in John Tavares to score around 40 goals and 85+ points 2) do you think he will outproduce Artemi Panarin or 3) are you preparing a lengthy response outlining how the above criteria is unfair?

Panarin - career high of 87 points, then signs for $11.643 million.
Tavares - career high of 86 points, then signs for $11 million.
Marner - career high of 94 points, then signs for 10.893 million.

Just for context. 2 contracts have been judged by many as brutal, and then there is Panarin's steal of a contract.

 

[Stephen]

Didn't see Panarin play centre to my knowledge.

85 points is fine by me, and I think it's entirely probable if he doesn't break a finger and then have to play through that.

I hope so, because he's got to do a lot to justify that sticker price.

 

[Stephen]

Panarin - career high of 87 points, then signs for $11.643 million.
Tavares - career high of 86 points, then signs for $11 million.
Marner - career high of 94 points, then signs for 10.893 million.

Just for context. 2 contracts have been judged by many as brutal, and then there is Panarin's steal of a contract.

Panarin is in the running for the Hart Trophy this season after signing that contract, which is a level Tavares and Marner have not come close to as Maple Leafs.