GDT: Preseason Game 5. Kraken @ Oilers beer leaguer. Streaming on Oilers+ at 7 pm

[FlameChampion]

Even if other teams have 2 Lavoies, the Oilers don’t.

Stauffer is so weird. For a guy who loves bigger players, not sure I have ever heard of him say much positive about Lavoie. He barely even mentions him.

Not sure that 5 mins is wrong about Perry though. I wouldn’t be surprised if hes basically a lock to make the team. Whether its the leadership core, old management or new management, someone is enamoured with vets. This team shouldn’t need players like Perry, Keith etc anymore.

We will see how it plays out. I don’t think players like Perry/Ryan should be holding back younger players though when they show promise and are showing to be ready.

 

[McDoused]

Sorry that I don’t know the 3000 or so players that make up the NHL and its minor and Jr teams off by heart and in perfect detail to give you an instant list at your demand.

It’s a generalization I am making. Could he get picked off waivers? Sure maybe. Just in MY OPINION I don’t think he does.

As I said above let’s see what happens.

I’m not trying to debate you but you’re looking for a great big W I guess so you can have it if you want. Have a great night.

Yeah I'm not going to touch that. I never asked for 3,000 people. I just asked a simple question and now you're acting unreasonable.

It's pretty simple. You said that every team has 1-2 guys like Lavoie. I asked who? You replied asking me to do all the work because youre lazy (or already know that your claim is unsubstantiated). I pointed to a bunch of teams that don't have guys like Lavoie and counter your claim.

Their was never any debate here. You're entitled to your opinion if Lavoie would clear or not but that wasn't the argument. I specially asked why people (yourself included) keep saying this even though it that just isn't true.

 

[Thomas Tatar]

Even if other teams have 2 Lavoies, the Oilers don’t.

Stauffer is so weird. For a guy who loves bigger players, not sure I have ever heard of him say much positive about Lavoie. He barely even mentions him.

Not sure that 5 mins is wrong about Perry though. I wouldn’t be surprised if hes basically a lock to make the team. Whether its the leadership core, old management or new management, someone is enamoured with vets. This team shouldn’t need players like Perry, Keith etc anymore.

We will see how it plays out. I don’t think players like Perry/Ryan should be holding back younger players though when they show promise and are showing to be ready.

I don’t disagree with you, about Perry. But Ryan has played well enough in pre-season to block a prospect. Based on everything else being equal, the vet should get the starting role.

Perry on the other hand, well I think they should mutually agree to terminate his contract and then let Katz play him 1.4 million to be an assistant coach or player development coach. A position that sees him around the team but that doesn’t expose him to playing actual NhL games. Guy just doesn’t have it anymore.

 

[smokersarejokers]

Even if other teams have 2 Lavoies, the Oilers don’t.

Stauffer is so weird. For a guy who loves bigger players, not sure I have ever heard of him say much positive about Lavoie. He barely even mentions him.

Not sure that 5 mins is wrong about Perry though. I wouldn’t be surprised if hes basically a lock to make the team. Whether its the leadership core, old management or new management, someone is enamoured with vets. This team shouldn’t need players like Perry, Keith etc anymore.

We will see how it plays out. I don’t think players like Perry/Ryan should be holding back younger players though when they show promise and are showing to be ready.

Derek Ryan's played well though.

 

[Heavy Dee]

I think Perry has been guaranteed a spot on the roster no matter what.

I’m not sure many young players like Lavoie have been poached off Stanley Cup winners as you describe. I tried thinking of who got claimed in waivers off cup winners Florida, Vegas, Tampa and Colorado, and none come to mind.

Most cup winners usually are poaching vets like Perry enroute to winning cups.

All Perry has done is lose in cup finals the last 4 years. The guy is a bum.

 

[Fourier]

Because this happens every single year where a home team fans worry about a tweener getting picked off waivers. Plus I can make the same claim as you but in reverse, place Lavoie in a list of the 60 of his closest peers from other teams and is he on top or in the top 5? Dont know the other teams prospects? Well then your writing cheques you can’t cash!

I’m just saying teams value their own similar prospects more than other teams similar prospects as they have invested a lot into them. Unless a similar prospect is head and shoulders above theirs teams usually stick with their own.

Remember Lavoie would have to be on an NHL roster and a team willing to use one of their 50 roster spots on him.

Let’s see how he does in the final few games but I see enough flaws in his game (see the Curlock article I posted above) that players his age and talent level cannot make in the bigs as coaches lose trust fast. Has a helluva shot and lots of upside but so do plenty of other teams 23-24 year olds.

The problem with Lavoie is that his go to skill is the one skill the vast majority of these tweener prospects lack. He can legitimately score. He finished top 10 in the AHL last year in goals despite playing on a team that was far from and offensive juggernaut. And if you look at the top 10 only about 4 of those guys are still prospects. Most are career AHL'ers whose game is lacking in some aspect, often NHL size being a key issue. Lavoie is 6'4" and 216 lbs. There are 1/2 a dozen teams in the league that could easily find a spot for him to see what he has.

He was a legitimate 1st round talent who fell due to concerns about his work ethic. Those seem to be gone. The Oilers will need cheap talent in the next couple of years. They can't really afford to waste guys like this without seeing what they have.

That would be THE most monumentally shortsighted move our team has made in a decade…. And that’s saying something.

Surely a cap constrained contender can’t be considering foregoing $4.5M in accrued deadline cap space just to save Lavoie, can they?!?

Putting Kane on LTIR does not end the chance of accruing cap space. They could add Lavoie LTIR Kane and then after a few games send someone down. Once they are below their new ceiling they can again accrue space. It just gives the a but longer to iron out the roster.

 

[brentashton]

What are you getting uptight about? I’m not arguing for or against waiving Lavoie. I’m saying the club probably will waive him due to wanting to run a short roster and has almost assuredly made a commitment to Perry. If you don’t like that then call up Bowman and call him a muppet.

By the way your the one making the claims that the Lavoie’s of the world get regularly claimed off contenders. I just said I can’t think of any so unless you can your statement is incorrect. Perhaps it isn’t. I just can’t think of any examples that agree with your statement.

Lavoie to me seems blocked and isn’t outplaying Podkolzin who also is seeing duty on the PK. Perry almost assuredly has a commitment and will only be replaced through injury or Lavoie drastically outplaying him in the next few games. Philp is competing for the 4C spot and let’s say they give it to him. Ryan probably displaces Perry meaning Lavoie has to beat out not only Perry but Ryan as well in this instance which won’t happen given Ryan’s ability to play right shot C if needed and his prowess on the PK.

The team decides to run only 12 F, so where does Lavoie fit then? That’s all I’m saying. No need to get hostile.

This is how I envision you looking…

 

[bucks_oil]

Putting Kane on LTIR does not end the chance of accruing cap space. They could add Lavoie LTIR Kane and then after a few games send someone down. Once they are below their new ceiling they can again accrue space. It just gives the a but longer to iron out the roster.

Yes, thank you... you explained that last week. I just didn't have the sequencing of it down in my head. Your explanation (and rationale) is clear.

However I don't see the huge advantage... wouldn't now be the easier time to have him pass through? Unless the plan would be to keep him on the roster for the full season? I just don't see that happening when he's the least versatile, and arguably has shown the least of the other forwards competing for the 13th spot. I think Ryan is still clearly a better all around player, Philp has outperformed him (and more versatile, higher upside)... even Hamblin can PK.

Anyway, we'll see I guess, but I wouldn't be constraining myself cap-wise to accommodate Lavoie.

And furthermore... isn't it true that if we don't LTIR Kane, we can accrue the space, then spend the space, then LTIR Kane and spend his space?

If we LTIR him now just to squeeze in an $89 or 90M roster, aren't we foregoing the opportunity to effectively run a $93M roster if we accrue and spend the space before LTIR? ie 1) Accrue, 2) Acquire $4M player near deadline, 3) LTIR, 4) Acquire a 2nd player up to Kane's $5.1M

I've been spouting that plan lately and nobody has commented... you seem best qualified to opine.

 

[CupofOil]

I don’t see Lavoie making the team. He doesn’t penalty kill and won’t be on the PP. He won’t displace Janmark or Brown with Henrique as I believe that line is set in stone.

That leaves the 4th line where he might get 6-7 minutes a night where he will just rot and is Classic Oilers, putting a rookie scorer on the 4th line and barely play them killing any confidence they have. I sense the new management won’t mismanage assets the way our past 2 regimes have.

Better to send him to the AHL and use him as an early call up in case of injury to the top 9 wingers. I doubt he gets claimed in waivers as every team has 1 or 2 Lavoie’s that they also will be waiving.

He wouldn't be displacing those guys, he'd be displacing/rotating with Perry who also doesn't PK.
Risking losing Lavoie on waivers would be asinine for the sake of keeping Perry, pure lunacy. He should be a lock to make the team.

As much as Philp should be locked in based on merit, the reality is that he's waiver exempt while Lavoie isn't so while they can't keep both it makes more sense to send Philp down for a month or two while they sort things out with the roster and keep Lavoie.

 

[GhostfaceWu]

Not giving lavoie a shot would be negligent by management at this point. Waive him if he starts the season and looks completely out of place but realistically janmark is a forth liner who can occasionally step up on the third line pencilling him for the third line for the entire season is a giant mistake.

 

[Fourier]

Yes, thank you... you explained that last week. I just didn't have the sequencing of it down in my head. Your explanation (and rationale) is clear.

However I don't see the huge advantage... wouldn't now be the easier time to have him pass through? Unless the plan would be to keep him on the roster for the full season? I just don't see that happening when he's the least versatile, and arguably has shown the least of the other forwards competing for the 13th spot. I think Ryan is still clearly a better all around player, Philp has outperformed him (and more versatile, higher upside)... even Hamblin can PK.

Anyway, we'll see I guess, but I wouldn't be constraining myself cap-wise to accommodate Lavoie.

And furthermore... isn't it true that if we don't LTIR Kane, we can accrue the space, then spend the space, then LTIR Kane and spend his space?

If we LTIR him now just to squeeze in an $89 or 90M roster, aren't we foregoing the opportunity to effectively run a $93M roster if we accrue and spend the space before LTIR? ie 1) Accrue, 2) Acquire $4M player near deadline, 3) LTIR, 4) Acquire a 2nd player up to Kane's $5.1M

I've been spouting that plan lately and nobody has commented... you seem best qualified to opine.

The Oilers don't have to LTIR Kane to keep Lavoie on the roster. In fact, they would probably not do so. But they could.

Philp is waiver exempt. Lavoie is not. I personally don't think he clears. A 6'4" 216 scorer who has actually shown that he can play a decent 200 foot game is just the type of guy that teams in the bottom of the league would take a shot at. If he does not pan out they lose nothing. If he continues to progress this is an easy win.

I just don't think that the Oilers can loose him for nothing without seeing what they have. They can give him 10 games in various roles and then decide what to do. If he steps up then they have something If he bombs then waive him and if at that point he is claimed then at least they tried. Ultimately, this comes down to how much value the team places in their own young guys. Keeping Perry as a #13 forward to lose Lavoie may well be their choice.

 

[MessierII]

Am I misreading things or can we not keep Perry and Lavoie having 13F and 7D?

 

[K1984]

Not giving lavoie a shot would be negligent by management at this point. Waive him if he starts the season and looks completely out of place but realistically janmark is a forth liner who can occasionally step up on the third line pencilling him for the third line for the entire season is a giant mistake.

Janmark can kill penalties and do other things and Lavoie can't.

Brown on GYB nailed it. Lavoie simply won't be put in a position to score due to the volume of guys ahead of him in the lineup that can do it better than he can. He's not killing penalties. He's not winning defensive matchups. He's not an energy/role player.

Other than the principle of losing a player on waivers being offensive, I am struggling to think of what the actual consequence is of losing Lavoie. We don't have a guy who's feature skill is scoring, but is probably around 7th or 8th (generously) in line as far as that ability on the team goes.

His skills package is dime a dozen and if we lost him I don't know if we even attempt to find a replacement because we already have what he brings. He's basically Brendan Perlini and we don't need that.

 

[oXo Cube]

I'm not really a big Lavoie fan at all but if a line consisting of him, Henrique, and Brown can't produce then the Oilers are in real big trouble.

Conversely, I'm the biggest Janmark fan on this board but that's a 4th liner all day long.

 

[Mr Positive]

Am I misreading things or can we not keep Perry and Lavoie having 13F and 7D?

We could do that. We still even have almost 1 million in space. I guess the issue would be that we can only have two of Perry, Philp and Lavoie

I bet we do send Philp down though and call him up only after we see some issue with Ryan as 4c.

Personally I would want Philp to share the spot with Ryan. He's 26. Imo there's not much more AHL development to be had

 

[MessierII]

We could do that. We still even have almost 1 million in space. I guess the issue would be that we can only have two of Perry, Philp and Lavoie

I bet we do send Philp down though and call him up only after we see some issue with Ryan as 4c.

Personally I would want Philp to share the spot with Ryan. He's 26. Imo there's not much more AHL development to be had

I mean Philip hasn’t played hockey in a year. Despite looking good it wouldn’t surprise me if he had some ups and downs the first couple of months getting used to the grind. He's also waiver exempt. Makes sense to send him down for a while get him back into the swing of things.

 

[SupremeTeam16]

The Oilers don't have to LTIR Kane to keep Lavoie on the roster. In fact, they would probably not do so. But they could.

Philp is waiver exempt. Lavoie is not. I personally don't think he clears. A 6'4" 216 scorer who has actually shown that he can play a decent 200 foot game is just the type of guy that teams in the bottom of the league would take a shot at. If he does not pan out they lose nothing. If he continues to progress this is an easy win.

I just don't think that the Oilers can loose him for nothing without seeing what they have. They can give him 10 games in various roles and then decide what to do. If he steps up then they have something If he bombs then waive him and if at that point he is claimed then at least they tried. Ultimately, this comes down to how much value the team places in their own young guys. Keeping Perry as a #13 forward to lose Lavoie may well be their choice.

I think they should waive Perry to start the season, have him pull the “I’ll retire if anyone claims me” card and send him down to Bako for a few weeks and give Lavoie a proper opportunity. Doing so would also give them a little more space to accrue if I’m not mistaken.

 

[CupofOil]

Janmark can kill penalties and do other things and Lavoie can't.

Brown on GYB nailed it. Lavoie simply won't be put in a position to score due to the volume of guys ahead of him in the lineup that can do it better than he can. He's not killing penalties. He's not winning defensive matchups. He's not an energy/role player.

Other than the principle of losing a player on waivers being offensive, I am struggling to think of what the actual consequence is of losing Lavoie. We don't have a guy who's feature skill is scoring, but is probably around 7th or 8th (generously) in line as far as that ability on the team goes.

His skills package is dime a dozen and if we lost him I don't know if we even attempt to find a replacement because we already have what he brings. He's basically Brendan Perlini and we don't need that.

The consequence of losing Lavoie is that you're losing a young player that you've developed for years in a largely barren pipeline with an aging roster that is desperately in need of capable young legs for the sake of what? Keeping Perry for his leadership?

On top of that, Lavoie has done well enough in preseason to make the roster based on merit so what exactly is the purpose of waiving him is my question to you?

There's no reason why he can't start on the 4th line, he's played a grindy enough game in the minors to carve out a niche on the 4th line with opportunity to move up if need be, Injuries happen, players underperform. There will always be opportunities for guys to step up and having a big young goal scorer who has improved at the pro level in the minors is a nice thing to have especially when you have very little of that in the system.

 

[brentashton]

Not giving lavoie a shot would be negligent by management at this point. Waive him if he starts the season and looks completely out of place but realistically janmark is a forth liner who can occasionally step up on the third line pencilling him for the third line for the entire season is a giant mistake.

I just don’t see him making the squad in the current available roster opening.

He hasn’t really shown enough to elevate to the 3rd line and displace anyone on that 3 man unit and at best he’s on par with the usefulness of the players on the 4th. Does he have more talent than some of them, for sure he does. That can’t be argued. But he also lacks some of the other overall versatility needed to play down the lineup on this team as it is otherwise made up.

If they think he can’t make it through waivers, strategically, then they will need to factor in where they think he will be asset wise on the late season roster and into next year. And even then, it’s not a complete game changer to his possible status. If push comes to shove, they need to relegate Perry to Bako and hope he doesn’t “retire” as they may need to call him up during the season. Keep Lavoie and lose Perry to immediate retirement means you’ve lost one of your top roster call ups for the year when injuries etc hit.

 

[LTIR]

That would be THE most monumentally shortsighted move our team has made in a decade…. And that’s saying something.

Surely a cap constrained contender can’t be considering foregoing $4.5M in accrued deadline cap space just to save Lavoie, can they?!?

It's not that black and white.. LTIRing Kane would allow us to keep Lavoie AND give us cap to add a top 4 RHD right away.
We will need to LTIR another when Kane is ready to return though.

 

[K1984]

The consequence of losing Lavoie is that you're losing a young player that you've developed in years in a largely barren pipeline with an aging roster that is desperately in need of capable young legs for the sake of what? Keeping Perry for his leadership?

On top of that, Lavoie has done well enough to make the roster based on merit so what exactly is the purpose of waiving him is my question to you?

Because he does literally nothing that about 7 other players at least do on this team.

I don't dislike him, I think he's played well in pre-season, and I definitely have time to listen to an argument to keep him over Perry. I just don't think it's really a big deal at all if we happened to lose him on waivers. He's limited in a bottom 6 role, and there is no room for him in the top 6 or on the power play. Doesn't kill penalties or do anything defensively. Not an energy player.

The jargon about young player, developed, pipeline, etc isn't really relevant when we could replace him instantly with a guy currently here on a PTO. Probably doesn't have much of a future in the NHL beyond #6 streaky scoring winger at best IMO.

 

[CupofOil]

Because he does literally nothing that about 7 other players at least do on this team.

I don't dislike him, I think he's played well in pre-season, and I definitely have time to listen to an argument to keep him over Perry. I just don't think it's really a big deal at all if we happened to lose him on waivers. He's limited in a bottom 6 role, and there is no room for him in the top 6 or on the power play. Doesn't kill penalties or do anything defensively. Not an energy player.

The jargon about young player, developed, pipeline, etc isn't really relevant when we could replace him instantly with a guy currently here on a PTO. Probably doesn't have much of a future in the NHL beyond #6 streaky scoring winger at best IMO.

The Oilers have no one shot scorers outside of Draisaitl and I guess Skinner perhaps but he's more of a close range scorer like Arvidsson, Hyman etc.

The young player and barren pipeline thing is very relevant because the Oilers have weak organizational depth in the pipeline and you're risking losing one of your better prospects because of....what reason now? Because he doesn't PK? That's beyond silly IMO. Does Perry PK? Why is he getting the spot over Lavoie? The whole PK argument doesn't hold water for me because they have a wealth of guys that can PK. Literally all of them in the bottom 6 outside of 4th line RW. They aren't hampering their PK units by playing Lavoie in the bottom 6.

This is a short and long term goal thing here. We really don't know what we have in Lavoie. He could be something, he could be nothing, but if he is something you have a young cost controlled big bodied goal scorer in your system that can be an asset going forward on an old roster with impending cap issues.
It's not a big deal if they lose him to waivers but it's something that can be easily avoided so why risk it?

 

[ujju2]

Because he does literally nothing that about 7 other players at least do on this team.

I don't dislike him, I think he's played well in pre-season, and I definitely have time to listen to an argument to keep him over Perry. I just don't think it's really a big deal at all if we happened to lose him on waivers. He's limited in a bottom 6 role, and there is no room for him in the top 6 or on the power play. Doesn't kill penalties or do anything defensively. Not an energy player.

The jargon about young player, developed, pipeline, etc isn't really relevant when we could replace him instantly with a guy currently here on a PTO. Probably doesn't have much of a future in the NHL beyond #6 streaky scoring winger at best IMO.

He might not be as "limited in a bottom-6 role" when you realize he could very well play alongside two former 20-goal scorers in Henrique and Brown. That's a line I'd be interested in seeing.

 

[brentashton]

Because he does literally nothing that about 7 other players at least do on this team.

I don't dislike him, I think he's played well in pre-season, and I definitely have time to listen to an argument to keep him over Perry. I just don't think it's really a big deal at all if we happened to lose him on waivers. He's limited in a bottom 6 role, and there is no room for him in the top 6 or on the power play. Doesn't kill penalties or do anything defensively. Not an energy player.

The jargon about young player, developed, pipeline, etc isn't really relevant when we could replace him instantly with a guy currently here on a PTO. Probably doesn't have much of a future in the NHL beyond #6 streaky scoring winger at best IMO.

This generation’s Kim Issel.

Eventually landed back at PA and became a city cop with current EPS Chief, Dale McFee , Bryan Glynn and others.

Kim Issel Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

Statistics of Kim Issel, a hockey player from Regina, SASK born Sep 25 1967 who was active from 1983 to 1998.

www.hockeydb.com

 

[K1984]

The Oilers have no one shot scorers outside of Draisaitl and I guess Skinner perhaps but he's more of a close range scorer like Arvidsson, Hyman etc.

The young player and barren pipeline thing is very relevant because the Oilers have weak organizational depth in the pipeline and you're risking losing one of your better prospects because of....what reason now? Because he doesn't PK? That's beyond silly IMO. Does Perry PK? Why is he getting the spot over Lavoie? The whole PK argument doesn't hold water for me because they have a wealth of guys that can PK. Literally all of them in the bottom 6 outside of 4th line RW. They aren't hampering their PK units by playing Lavoie in the bottom 6.

This is a short and long term goal thing here. We really don't know what we have in Lavoie. He could be something, he could be nothing, but if he is something you have a young cost controlled big bodied goal scorer in your system that can be an asset going forward on an old roster with impending cap issues.

I can listen to an argument to keeping him over Perry, like I said before, and I don't know why you're seizing on PK. He doesn't do much of anything else that isn't shooting the puck either with any sort of consistency.

He's not going to play in the top 6 over any scoring player we have there. We'll be expecting him to use that skill on a 3rd or 4th line. I just don't see it as a big deal if we lose him, but would still rather not.