GDT: Preseason game 3: Sharks @ Ducks 7:00pm

[Star Platinum]

You're literally proving my point. If you haven't seen Dickinson do "something", then you aren't watching.

I didn't say anything about Dickinson. I did say something about our young forwards. But since you decided to create that strawman, let me say that I think Dickinson has played a more conservative offensive game than he played for London as if perhaps the coaches wanted him specifically to work on showing them that he could be a more responsible defensive player.

 

[Juxtaposer]

I didn't say anything about Dickinson. I did say something about our young forwards. But since you decided to create that strawman, let me say that I think Dickinson has played a more conservative offensive game than he played for London as if perhaps the coaches wanted him specifically to work on showing them that he could be a more responsible defensive player.

You may not have said "Dickinson" in your post but the one you quoted was very, very specifically talking about Dickinson.

Even for Halttunen and Musty, this holds true. They have absolutely showed "something". Just because they haven't played to your standards doesn't mean that this camp or even a few NHL games are "worthless".

This whole forum right now, not just you, reeks of impatience. If you're going to get irritated at teenagers not being NHL-quality players, maybe you should take another year off. There's going to be some ugly moments. The team is going to really f***ing bad. Smith is going to struggle, Celebrini is going to go through rough patches, even Eklund is going to have some bad stretches. It's called "development". I know everyone wants high picks to immediately be superstars but that's just not how it works.

 

[OrrNumber4]

@Juxtaposer You aren't wrong, but if one can't criticize players (since it's too early), one can't praise them either. We're all reading tea leaves here...

 

[Star Platinum]

You may not have said "Dickinson" in your post but the one you quoted was very, very specifically talking about Dickinson.

If you have a beef with someone because they don't love Dickinson to your satisfaction, take it up with that person.

I know everyone wants high picks to immediately be superstars but that's just not how it works.

Literally no one is saying that, but keep on strawmanning.

 

[DG93]

You may not have said "Dickinson" in your post but the one you quoted was very, very specifically talking about Dickinson.

Even for Halttunen and Musty, this holds true. They have absolutely showed "something". Just because they haven't played to your standards doesn't mean that this camp or even a few NHL games are "worthless".

This whole forum right now, not just you, reeks of impatience. If you're going to get irritated at teenagers not being NHL-quality players, maybe you should take another year off. There's going to be some ugly moments. The team is going to really f***ing bad. Smith is going to struggle, Celebrini is going to go through rough patches, even Eklund is going to have some bad stretches. It's called "development". I know everyone wants high picks to immediately be superstars but that's just not how it works.

Agreed. If all these guys are still struggling in 3 years, then we have a problem. For now, we're just in for a rocky but fun ride

 

[one2gamble]

I still think musty going directly back to Jrs is going to hurt him regardless of what he did or didn't do in these few games.

He needs to be pressed, maybe a new team will do that but I doubt it.

Halts needs better foot speed

Dickinson was fine. I think he makes the team next year.

 

[tahoesharksfan]

Agreed. If all these guys are still struggling in 3 years, then we have a problem. For now, we're just in for a rocky but fun ride

Agreed! Adjust you focus and watch the season in the context of what we're going to become....and after several years of pain, we finally have the potential to become something meaningful again.....Go Sharks!

 

[OversKy]

Regarding Dickinson, some scouts have been saying that his future could be as a more defensive defenseman with some offensive pop...a Justin Braun who can get 30-40 points. I can see how his skating, positioning, and stickwork could make him that. Even though he's a great skater, I didn't see the pop and creativity you'd expect of a rushing offensive defenseman.

I don't think Kostin's issue is his effort; he needs to modify his game. In this one, he was making some nice plays holding on to the puck, heading to the middle, and waiting defenses out...I just don't think he has the possession skills to pull it off consistently. He needs to be a complementary player; someone who makes quick plays, moves the puck immediately, and heads to tough areas. Celebrini, Eklund, Granlund, and maybe Smith have the talent to be playmakers...not Kostin.

Dickinson is 18, in junior which albeit might not be transferable he rushes end to end and even leads the rush off a breakout pass.

 

[sampler]

A few things are becoming clear this camp in my eyes:

1. Musty and dick are not there yet. Both have shown some flashes, but neither plays with the speed and consistency needed to be an everyday NHLer. Furthermore, both have some glaring holes. Dick's processing speed is just not yet up to par leading to ill advised plays and defensive lapses. Musty is not moving his feet nearly enough and thus is not breaking out with speed and making plays at speed. Both are just not at the NHL thinking/decision making level yet. Both will be back at juniors shortly, but neither has shown that they are busts either. Just 18, 19 is too young.

2. Gush and cardwell have shown themselves to be the most NHL ready of the forward prospects (alongside celebrini). Gushkin, especially, has been spectacular, not just offensively but in defensive effort as well. He really looks like a budding Marty St. Louis. Undersized, but very fast and really driven. I would not be surprised to see him on the opening roster and I would not be surprised, if they give him celly's wing, to see him explode on the scene with a 50-60 pt season.

3. Warsofsky is clearly working very had to change the culture. He is unafraid to call guys out and seems to be specific in his lessons and expectations. The defensive and transition game of the sharks remains garbage, so he has a lot of work to do there.

4. Cagnoni and Thompson look like they are getting closer too. Both should be in the A, but I would not be surprised to see them in teal at some point. Cagnoni skates really well and has some great offensive instincts, so if he can solidify the defensive side, he has a very high ceiling.

5. This season could go either way. I could imagine a repeat of last year (or slight improvement) where the depth at both forward and D is just not good enough to score enough and provide enough offensive pressure, and thus they will play defense too much and give up too much. Great offense is a major part of a great defense (long O zone shifts mean fewer chances against).

Or...

Warsofsky could establish a whole new culture of hard work, effort, and pride. He could create an effective defensive system that also leads to more offense and much more discipline. If a couple kids step up (celly, smith, gush?) then they could surprise big time.

The good news of rookie tourney+camp+preseason thus far is that while some of the highly touted younger guys have not shown NHL prowess yet, many of the other older prospects have. Gushkin, Thompson, Cardwell, Cagnoni, and celebrini have all shown NHL level skills.

 

[Shark Finn]

It's beyond me how anyone realistically expects Musty, Dickinson or Halttunen to be ready.

 

[mogambomoroo]

It's beyond me how anyone realistically expects Musty, Dickinson or Halttunen to be ready.

I would agree, especially since Dickinson just turned 18 and Musty/Halttunen just turned 19.
It's already a big thing that we even get two rookies to the big club this year with Celebrini and Smith.
Even though I'm big on Musty and Dickinson, I would only be worried if they don't crack the roster in 2-3 years. Defencemen usually take longer but with the potential Dickinson has I want to see him a little earlier.

 

[sampler]

It's beyond me how anyone realistically expects Musty, Dickinson or Halttunen to be ready.

I dunno. Sometimes guys come up after a very strong D+1 season but admittedly it’s not common. There was hope and the numbers in juniors, especially for musty, coupled with his prospect game and rookie tourney performances built some hope that he was ready.

Warsofsky has definitely given him a chance to shine, but he just didn’t grab it. Next year should be interesting.

My attention turns to gushkin.

 

[Alaskanice]

I dunno. Sometimes guys come up after a very strong D+1 season but admittedly it’s not common. There was hope and the numbers in juniors, especially for musty, coupled with his prospect game and rookie tourney performances built some hope that he was ready.

Warsofsky has definitely given him a chance to shine, but he just didn’t grab it. Next year should be interesting.

My attention turns to gushkin.

Preseason isn’t over. Evaluations are still ongoing.

 

[Hodge]

It's beyond me how anyone realistically expects Musty, Dickinson or Halttunen to be ready.

Almost every active first line forward who was drafted in the late 1st/early 2nd round made an impact in the NHL by their D+2 season. Aho, Pastrnak, DeBrincat, Thomas, Konecny, Johnston, Boeser, McCann, etc. Musty and Halttunen failing to seriously challenge for a roster spot on the worst team in the league casts serious doubt that they will ever rise to the level of the aforementioned forwards.

 

[Star Platinum]

Almost every active first line forward who was drafted in the late 1st/early 2nd round made an impact in the NHL by their D+2 season.

Define how many points constitutes "impact."

 

[Hodge]

Define how many points constitutes "impact."

It's not about points as much as consistently earning a spot in the lineup which Musty and Halttunen seem far away from doing.

 

[Star Platinum]

It's not about points as much as consistently earning a spot in the lineup which Musty and Halttunen seem far away from doing.

It's always something vague and ineffable that only you can spot and identify

 

[Juxtaposer]

Almost every active first line forward who was drafted in the late 1st/early 2nd round made an impact in the NHL by their D+2 season. Aho, Pastrnak, DeBrincat, Thomas, Konecny, Johnston, Boeser, McCann, etc. Musty and Halttunen failing to seriously challenge for a roster spot on the worst team in the league casts serious doubt that they will ever rise to the level of the aforementioned forwards.

Not to excuse Musty's poor play, because it would be a lie to say that I'm not disappointed in his pre-season so far, but what do all those names have in common? They had great veterans around them. And the ones who didn't join already-good teams (namely Aho and Pastrnak) already had full seasons playing in men's pros leagues. It's also worth noting that almost none of the guys on your list save Johnston is very big at all, and he's a huge aberration from that list anyway.

If anything, the best comparison I have is Timo Meier, who was almost a year older than Musty in his D+2 season that he got called up to the Sharks. Does anyone remember how ugly Meier looked, even in his D+3 season? Just flinging pucks at the net indiscriminately and taking shitty stick penalties. Then, in D+4 everything just clicked for him.

Does anyone remember how bad Draisaitl looked in the NHL in his 19 year old season? I remember thinking "this guy is a straight up bust, his skating is horrific and he's always behind the play". How about JT Miller, 6 points in 30 games in his D+3 season, looked like a grinder. Nick Suzuki didn't play until his D+3 season, Jason Robertson didn't play until his D+4 season. Mikko Rantanen scored 0 points and was a -7 in 9 NHL games in his 19 year old season, before being sent to the AHL where he dominated. The NHL is an incredibly hard league to play in for a 19 year old kid.

All I'm getting at is that there are plenty of examples of 'enigmatic' but highly skilled forwards that took longer to get to the NHL. Hell, Jason Robertson is probably the best comparison of them all, with his July birthday/size/skating issues. I was hoping that Musty would be on a shorter timeline, but maybe he is a guy that you slow cook, give him a year in the AHL.

TL;DR, it's completely fair to criticize Musty but I don't think it's reasonable to write him off after two NHL preseason games.

 

[Lebanezer]

Not to excuse Musty's poor play, because it would be a lie to say that I'm not disappointed in his pre-season so far, but what do all those names have in common? They had great veterans around them. And the ones who didn't join already-good teams (namely Aho and Pastrnak) already had full seasons playing in men's pros leagues. It's also worth noting that almost none of the guys on your list save Johnston is very big at all, and he's a huge aberration from that list anyway.

If anything, the best comparison I have is Timo Meier, who was almost a year older than Musty in his D+2 season that he got called up to the Sharks. Does anyone remember how ugly Meier looked, even in his D+3 season? Just flinging pucks at the net indiscriminately and taking shitty stick penalties. Then, in D+4 everything just clicked for him.

Does anyone remember how bad Draisaitl looked in the NHL in his 19 year old season? I remember thinking "this guy is a straight up bust, his skating is horrific and he's always behind the play". How about JT Miller, 6 points in 30 games in his D+3 season, looked like a grinder. Nick Suzuki didn't play until his D+3 season, Jason Robertson didn't play until his D+4 season. Mikko Rantanen scored 0 points and was a -7 in 9 NHL games in his 19 year old season, before being sent to the AHL where he dominated. The NHL is an incredibly hard league to play in for a 19 year old kid.

All I'm getting at is that there are plenty of examples of 'enigmatic' but highly skilled forwards that took longer to get to the NHL. Hell, Jason Robertson is probably the best comparison of them all, with his July birthday/size/skating issues. I was hoping that Musty would be on a shorter timeline, but maybe he is a guy that you slow cook, give him a year in the AHL.

TL;DR, it's completely fair to criticize Musty but I don't think it's reasonable to write him off after two NHL preseason games.

To be fair to Hodge, he wrote him off before these 2 games.

 

[fasterthanlight]

Musty is a hard one because the narrative is: "He has nothing left to learn in the OHL (and can't play in the AHL). Going back to Sudbury in particular would harm his development."

So, the hope was high that the outside chance (e.g., 5%?) of him being NHL-ready could be a solution to this problem. But, yeah, as expected, he's not ready right now for the NHL (but could arguably be ready for the AHL, which is impossible.)

 

[Hodge]

Not to excuse Musty's poor play, because it would be a lie to say that I'm not disappointed in his pre-season so far, but what do all those names have in common? They had great veterans around them. And the ones who didn't join already-good teams (namely Aho and Pastrnak) already had full seasons playing in men's pros leagues. It's also worth noting that almost none of the guys on your list save Johnston is very big at all, and he's a huge aberration from that list anyway.

If anything, the best comparison I have is Timo Meier, who was almost a year older than Musty in his D+2 season that he got called up to the Sharks. Does anyone remember how ugly Meier looked, even in his D+3 season? Just flinging pucks at the net indiscriminately and taking shitty stick penalties. Then, in D+4 everything just clicked for him.

Does anyone remember how bad Draisaitl looked in the NHL in his 19 year old season? I remember thinking "this guy is a straight up bust, his skating is horrific and he's always behind the play". How about JT Miller, 6 points in 30 games in his D+3 season, looked like a grinder. Nick Suzuki didn't play until his D+3 season, Jason Robertson didn't play until his D+4 season. Mikko Rantanen scored 0 points and was a -7 in 9 NHL games in his 19 year old season, before being sent to the AHL where he dominated. The NHL is an incredibly hard league to play in for a 19 year old kid.

All I'm getting at is that there are plenty of examples of 'enigmatic' but highly skilled forwards that took longer to get to the NHL. Hell, Jason Robertson is probably the best comparison of them all, with his July birthday/size/skating issues. I was hoping that Musty would be on a shorter timeline, but maybe he is a guy that you slow cook, give him a year in the AHL.

TL;DR, it's completely fair to criticize Musty but I don't think it's reasonable to write him off after two NHL preseason games.

I'm not writing Musty off, just adjusting my expectations of his projected range of outcomes. Most draft "steals" prove their worth in the NHL early on but of course there are exceptions like the ones you mentioned. Musty could still follow the Jason Robertson or JT Miller development curve and Musty is young for his draft year so he has that going for him too. Draisaitl and Rantanen are no longer relevant comparisons though. They both looked bad in the NHL in their D+1 seasons but were top six forwards by D+2.

 

[Hodge]

Musty is a hard one because the narrative is: "He has nothing left to learn in the OHL (and can't play in the AHL). Going back to Sudbury in particular would harm his development."

So, the hope was high that the outside chance (e.g., 5%?) of him being NHL-ready could be a solution to this problem. But, yeah, as expected, he's not ready right now for the NHL (but could arguably be ready for the AHL, which is impossible.)

He has looked bad enough, especially in TC and preseason, that I'm starting to question the "nothing left to learn in the OHL" narrative. Seems like he has a lot to learn about playing with pace, managing the puck, going to the dirty areas, etc. The role of our development staff should be to get him to focus on improving those aspects of his game in juniors.

 

[Star Platinum]

He has looked bad enough, especially in TC and preseason, that I'm starting to question the "nothing left to learn in the OHL" narrative. Seems like he has a lot to learn about playing with pace, managing the puck, going to the dirty areas, etc. The role of our development staff should be to get him to focus on improving those aspects of his game in juniors.

My hope is that he finds a team where they're more likely to enforce him adding those elements, but I don't have any notion of how player transfers in Canadian hockey work.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

He has looked bad enough, especially in TC and preseason, that I'm starting to question the "nothing left to learn in the OHL" narrative. Seems like he has a lot to learn about playing with pace, managing the puck, going to the dirty areas, etc. The role of our development staff should be to get him to focus on improving those aspects of his game in juniors.

I don’t think he really can learn any of those things going back to juniors but I also don’t think there’s a real option other than going back.

 

[hohosaregood]

I don’t think he really can learn any of those things going back to juniors but I also don’t think there’s a real option other than going back.

he's kinda a perfect candidate for the college route. the chl/ncaa block is so dumb