Movies: Predator: Killer Of Killers

[Jussi]

We aren't talking about "obscure comic 'canon'", but canon that was established in the first two major motion pictures over 30 years ago. It's like if a new Terminator or Alien movie contradicted the first two movies in those franchises.

Again, other live action films have come after those, why limit the canon to just the first two? Especially when the 2nd one was crap.

 

[shadow1]

Again, other live action films have come after those, why limit the canon to just the first two? Especially when the 2nd one was crap.

The first two movies established the canon, and other films expanded upon it.

Killer of Killers changed the canon. If Trachtenberg wanted to alter the canon, why didn't he create his own original character/creature?

 

[Osprey]

Again, other live action films have come after those, why limit the canon to just the first two? Especially when the 2nd one was crap.

Canon is always a limitation, but you can expand on it while still respecting it. Rogue One and Andor are excellent examples of expanding on the OT's canon without contradicting or changing it. If, instead, Cassian had run into Luke and Han and gone on adventures with them, would that have been OK because "why limit the canon to just the first three films"? Of course not. Changing canon isn't expanding it; it's destroying it. Now, the Predator franchise's canon has already been pretty destroyed by later films, but that's all the more reason to try to stay consistent with the original ones. Trachtenberg wisely did that with Prey and it got the franchise back on its feet.

 

[Jussi]

Canon is always a limitation, but you can expand on it while still respecting it. Rogue One and Andor are excellent examples of expanding on the OT's canon without contradicting or changing it. If, instead, Cassian had run into Luke and Han and gone on adventures with them, would that have been OK because "why limit the canon to just the first three films"? Of course not. Changing canon isn't expanding it; it's destroying it. Now, the Predator franchise's canon has already been pretty destroyed by later films, but that's all the more reason to try to stay consistent with the original ones. Trachtenberg wisely did that with Prey and it got the franchise back on its feet.

I just don't see the point in gatekeeping a canon, that's been fairly flimsy to boot.

 

[Osprey]

I just don't see the point in gatekeeping a canon, that's been fairly flimsy to boot.

The point is to not see it become flimsy, or flimsier. It's gotten this way because the writers haven't stayed faithful to the original canon. It'll only get worse if we excuse it each time.

 

[Jussi]

The point is to not see it become flimsy, or flimsier. It's gotten this way because the writers haven't stayed faithful to the original canon. It'll only get worse if we excuse it each time.

I see the canon as "still evolving". Seem Trachtenberg wants to actually do something with it long term, which has never been the case. I see that as a positive.

 

[shadow1]

I see the canon as "still evolving". Seem Trachtenberg wants to actually do something with it long term, which has never been the case. I see that as a positive.

Devolving is a better term. Turning the Predators from honor based hunters to bloodthirsty beasts makes them more generic. It would be like it in Alien: Earth, suddenly the xenomorph no longer needs to reproduce and is reduced to a slasher villain.

 

[Osprey]

I see the canon as "still evolving". Seem Trachtenberg wants to actually do something with it long term, which has never been the case. I see that as a positive.

Well, Shane Black likely would've done the same, but The Predator (which was to be the start of a trilogy) flopped, so he didn't get the chance. That movie was certainly not a positive for the franchise.

That said, Trachtenberg is off to a much better start than Black, so I agree that that's a positive. I just don't see everything that he's doing to "evolve" the canon as positive.

 

[Osprey]

For shadow1, mostly. Major spoiler warning.

"Two of the short stories are actually pretty decent, showcasing interesting characters in novel settings, the third is a bit goofy and over the top, and the finale kind of makes me wish the whole movie hadn't even happened."
Pretty much echoes my thoughts.

 

[RandV]

The point is to not see it become flimsy, or flimsier. It's gotten this way because the writers haven't stayed faithful to the original canon. It'll only get worse if we excuse it each time.

Okay so when I mentioned a comic book I didn't mean that in a negative way, I thought I saw it mentioned here that there's been a Predator comic so I assumed that may have created some deeper lore. But if we're just going off the first two movies, I think that makes it even a worse argument to start complaining about 'canon' here.

First off the original is a write off. There's nothing really established here that's different from Prey or the 3 initial sequences of this movie. If I recall correctly Arnie escapes the self destruct blast, they get picked up by the helicopter, and that's it. So the argument is more in Predator 2. While I haven't sat down and watched the full movie, I've seen bits and pieces here and there as they used to put up movies on cable TV and I vaguely recall seeing the ending where multiple Predators come out. Watching it again on youtube, yes they come collect the dead body and as an after thought the apparent leader and last to leave pulls out a 'trophy' from his belt and hands it to Danny Glover(?) in respect. Coincidentally it appears to be the same gun the pilot is given in the stadium.

Now I would call that an extremely loose bit of lore that you have to stick to. First off no one cared about Predator 2, and as a series it never really went anywhere until Prey came out which was largely successful because it mirrored the original but from a historic setting. Second what happened in Predator 2 is so easy to write around that it's barely a speed bump. Like for one there could easily be different factions of the species here. Or if I were to propose a broad story arch, I'd suggest rather than kidnapping the Predator's honor the victors by creating and preserving clones of them, Mickey 17 style. Then at some point in the distant future a petty tyrant has gotten hold of a collection and is now using them for sport.

I agree the writing behind the coliseum is kind of weak. The 'you will fight each other to the death, then the victor will get to fight me king Predator!' But as a broader story/series concept, I find the idea of bad ass warriors throughout history banding together to fight Predator in the future to be really good.

 

[Jussi]

Okay so when I mentioned a comic book I didn't mean that in a negative way, I thought I saw it mentioned here that there's been a Predator comic so I assumed that may have created some deeper lore. But if we're just going off the first two movies, I think that makes it even a worse argument to start complaining about 'canon' here.

First off the original is a write off. There's nothing really established here that's different from Prey or the 3 initial sequences of this movie. If I recall correctly Arnie escapes the self destruct blast, they get picked up by the helicopter, and that's it. So the argument is more in Predator 2. While I haven't sat down and watched the full movie, I've seen bits and pieces here and there as they used to put up movies on cable TV and I vaguely recall seeing the ending where multiple Predators come out. Watching it again on youtube, yes they come collect the dead body and as an after thought the apparent leader and last to leave pulls out a 'trophy' from his belt and hands it to Danny Glover(?) in respect. Coincidentally it appears to be the same gun the pilot is given in the stadium.

Now I would call that an extremely loose bit of lore that you have to stick to. First off no one cared about Predator 2, and as a series it never really went anywhere until Prey came out which was largely successful because it mirrored the original but from a historic setting. Second what happened in Predator 2 is so easy to write around that it's barely a speed bump. Like for one there could easily be different factions of the species here. Or if I were to propose a broad story arch, I'd suggest rather than kidnapping the Predator's honor the victors by creating and preserving clones of them, Mickey 17 style. Then at some point in the distant future a petty tyrant has gotten hold of a collection and is now using them for sport.

I agree the writing behind the coliseum is kind of weak. The 'you will fight each other to the death, then the victor will get to fight me king Predator!' But as a broader story/series concept, I find the idea of bad ass warriors throughout history banding together to fight Predator in the future to be really good.

Pretty much how I feel. There's no lore established in the first movie really.

 

[shadow1]

Okay so when I mentioned a comic book I didn't mean that in a negative way, I thought I saw it mentioned here that there's been a Predator comic so I assumed that may have created some deeper lore. But if we're just going off the first two movies, I think that makes it even a worse argument to start complaining about 'canon' here.

First off the original is a write off. There's nothing really established here that's different from Prey or the 3 initial sequences of this movie. If I recall correctly Arnie escapes the self destruct blast, they get picked up by the helicopter, and that's it. So the argument is more in Predator 2. While I haven't sat down and watched the full movie, I've seen bits and pieces here and there as they used to put up movies on cable TV and I vaguely recall seeing the ending where multiple Predators come out. Watching it again on youtube, yes they come collect the dead body and as an after thought the apparent leader and last to leave pulls out a 'trophy' from his belt and hands it to Danny Glover(?) in respect. Coincidentally it appears to be the same gun the pilot is given in the stadium.

Now I would call that an extremely loose bit of lore that you have to stick to. First off no one cared about Predator 2, and as a series it never really went anywhere until Prey came out which was largely successful because it mirrored the original but from a historic setting. Second what happened in Predator 2 is so easy to write around that it's barely a speed bump. Like for one there could easily be different factions of the species here. Or if I were to propose a broad story arch, I'd suggest rather than kidnapping the Predator's honor the victors by creating and preserving clones of them, Mickey 17 style. Then at some point in the distant future a petty tyrant has gotten hold of a collection and is now using them for sport.

I agree the writing behind the coliseum is kind of weak. The 'you will fight each other to the death, then the victor will get to fight me king Predator!' But as a broader story/series concept, I find the idea of bad ass warriors throughout history banding together to fight Predator in the future to be really good.

The first movie establishes practically everything. The look of the creature, that it's from out of space, that it's drawn to conflict and heat, that it only attacks "worthy" prey (i.e. no one unarmed), that it collects trophies.

Predator 2 builds on top of those ideas. We learn more about the creature, including some cool new weapons, but its character motivations remain intact. You might say no one cares about Predator 2, but it has a 6.3 on IMDb. It's not a masterpiece but it's not a piece of crap, either.

 

[Osprey]

Okay so when I mentioned a comic book I didn't mean that in a negative way, I thought I saw it mentioned here that there's been a Predator comic so I assumed that may have created some deeper lore. But if we're just going off the first two movies, I think that makes it even a worse argument to start complaining about 'canon' here.

First off the original is a write off. There's nothing really established here that's different from Prey or the 3 initial sequences of this movie. If I recall correctly Arnie escapes the self destruct blast, they get picked up by the helicopter, and that's it. So the argument is more in Predator 2. While I haven't sat down and watched the full movie, I've seen bits and pieces here and there as they used to put up movies on cable TV and I vaguely recall seeing the ending where multiple Predators come out. Watching it again on youtube, yes they come collect the dead body and as an after thought the apparent leader and last to leave pulls out a 'trophy' from his belt and hands it to Danny Glover(?) in respect. Coincidentally it appears to be the same gun the pilot is given in the stadium.

Now I would call that an extremely loose bit of lore that you have to stick to. First off no one cared about Predator 2, and as a series it never really went anywhere until Prey came out which was largely successful because it mirrored the original but from a historic setting. Second what happened in Predator 2 is so easy to write around that it's barely a speed bump. Like for one there could easily be different factions of the species here. Or if I were to propose a broad story arch, I'd suggest rather than kidnapping the Predator's honor the victors by creating and preserving clones of them, Mickey 17 style. Then at some point in the distant future a petty tyrant has gotten hold of a collection and is now using them for sport.

I agree the writing behind the coliseum is kind of weak. The 'you will fight each other to the death, then the victor will get to fight me king Predator!' But as a broader story/series concept, I find the idea of bad ass warriors throughout history banding together to fight Predator in the future to be really good.

There was a comic that was based on the first two movies and supposedly solidified the lore, but most people (including me) have never read it and refer mostly to the first two movies when talking about canon. I don't see why that makes for a bad argument. Should fans not criticize later Terminator and Alien movies if they contradict the first two movies in those franchises? How many movies does a franchise need before fans are allowed to complain about canon?

Predator established in a few ways that the Yautja respect their opponents: it didn't attack the unarmed girl, it removed its armor and weaponry to give Dutch a fairer fight and it keeps skulls as trophies. Predator 2 followed up on that by having the predator spare a pregnant woman and the ones at the end giving Harrigan a trophy for killing one of them and letting him leave. Those last two were additions to the lore that almost all fans approve of. Even fans like me that don't particularly like Predator 2 like those additions because they make the Yautja seem even more honorable. It's kind of beside the point that the movie isn't that good. It expanded the lore in a way that most fans like, so it's still appreciated for that.

 

[Jussi]

For shadow1, mostly. Major spoiler warning.

"Two of the short stories are actually pretty decent, showcasing interesting characters in novel settings, the third is a bit goofy and over the top, and the finale kind of makes me wish the whole movie hadn't even happened."
Pretty much echoes my thoughts.

I really do have to question linking known alt-right grifter, Critical Stinker here.

https://www.deviantart.com/razorrex/journal/The-Critical-Drinker-is-Bad-and-Here-s-Why-916866924

 

[Jussi]

Prey director teases secret new project after Predator: Killer of Killers and Predator: Badlands: "I sort of rushed two at once because I was so eager to get to the third thing"

Exclusive | Dan Trachtenberg suggests he's not done with the Predator franchise just yet

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