GDT: Pre-season: Canes vs. Caps,

[HoneyBrownTown]

Murphy won't be a consistent NHLer for maybe a few more seasons. He's 22. I'd like to think he's in the show at 24 in the 3rd pair and on the PP.

 

[nobuddy]

Wow the board's general opinion on Murphy really shifted based on one pre-season game

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Wow the board's general opinion on Murphy really shifted based on one pre-season game

Shifted? I don't think anybody's opinion of Murphy actually shifted. The people who weren't overly impressed with him before are still not overly impressed with him. Personally, I thought he made strides the 2nd half of last year and hope he can build off of that this year. He simply struggled last night, no sugar coating it.

 

[nobuddy]

Shifted? I don't think anybody's opinion of Murphy actually shifted. The people who weren't overly impressed with him before are still not overly impressed with him. Personally, I thought he made strides the 2nd half of last year and hope he can build off of that this year. He simply struggled last night, no sugar coating it.

There is talk on this page of him being the next McBain or Boychuk.

There was no such discussion before that, and I was told I was setting the bar too low when I predicted 25 points for him this season.

 

[Carolinas Identity*]

There is talk on this page of him being the next McBain or Boychuk.

There was no such discussion before that, and I was told I was setting the bar too low when I predicted 25 points for him this season.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

There is talk on this page of him being the next McBain or Boychuk.

There was no such discussion before that, and I was told I was setting the bar too low when I predicted 25 points for him this season.

You are getting hung up on the wording vs. the real message. Many people have talked about how bad Murphy is defensively over the past 2 years (some have even said he should be a forward), how he's not improving on that front, etc. (in fact, I remember more than one person saying he's going to be a MAB, a guy that can't play defense but can contribute on the PP).

That's the same sentiment here. That he is struggling defensively, and some are saying that if he doesn't improve, it doesn't bode well for his NHL future. Although I've always been wary of him being a top 4 guy, I'm not that negative on him. I also acknowledge that he has to continue to improve or will be a fringe player.

EDIT: and I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone is talking about points, it's his defense that is of concern.

 

[TheOllieC]

If Murphy was actually good defensively he would have borderline elite potential with his skating/puck carrying ability and PP prowess.

Have to take the bad with the good. He'll never be a legit shut down shot suppression type defenseman who can play against top players but he won't have to behind Hanifin, Faulk, Fleury etc. He only has like a season of play under his belt. He could learn a thing or two about how Wiz plays. Still plenty of time for him to work on positioning and such. Can't just give up so soon on someone with those tools.

 

[Joe McGrath]

If Murphy was actually good defensively he would have borderline elite potential with his skating/puck carrying ability and PP prowess.

Have to take the bad with the good. He'll never be a legit shut down shot suppression type defenseman who can play against top players but he won't have to behind Hanifin, Faulk, Fleury etc. He only has like a season of play under his belt. He could learn a thing or two about how Wiz plays. Still plenty of time for him to work on positioning and such. Can't just give up so soon on someone with those tools.

I think this was something the Canes had in mind when they got Wiz, but somehow went undetected or under reported. He works well with a young D partner (Hanifin) but his career is also very much what Murphy should be trying to achieve as an undersized offensive defenseman. Wiz wasn't exactly a dynamo at 22 either.

Murphy needs to be better in his own end before he can be an every night NHL defenseman for a team that doesn't suck. He's 22 though, so it's not like he's DOA. I think people were hoping to see some improvement over the summer from him, and in game 1 of the preseason it wasn't there. That said, it was game 1 of the preseason. Camp opened, what 3 days ago?

 

[tarheelhockey]

I think Murphy has the potential to be a very strong NHL'er, just like Jamie McBain did. And I'm not being sarcastic. In an alternate universe, Jamie McBain is currently a top-4 defender for the Hurricanes.

The problem with these guys is that the NHL leaves absolutely zero margins for soft offensive defensemen. Unless a player promises to be the next Karlsson, coaches aren't going to let them run around taking risks. So it comes down to what their game looks like without the offensive risks, and that in turn comes down to their intelligence and their willingness to learn.

McBain was frankly not a very smart player and he apparently wasn't willing to learn. Murphy has always struck me as having next-level offensive instincts, but not anticipating very well in his own end. And on top of that, he's too small to make up for it with physicality (with McBain it was more a question of willingness). The one thing left is his willingness to learn... basically whether he is going to be absolutely dedicated to overcoming his physical and mental deficiencies in his own end, so that he can open up that offensive talent when he has the chance.

What we saw last night, did not look a guy taking a step in that direction. That's all. It's not a final judgment but the entire sample to this point suggests that he's not making the leap.

 

[RodTheBawd]

Said it before and I'll say it again, I'm not seeing it. Carolina doesn't have the luxury of carrying a... well.. luxury player like Murphy. You can only shelter a kid so much. I would love to see him prove me wrong, there's nothing I like more than seeing a little guy like that become a legit NHLer, not sure if he'll get there though. That's not to say I'd give up on him now, as long as he can remain really cheap, I'd carry him for another 2-3 years.

The one thing left is his willingness to learn... basically whether he is going to be absolutely dedicated to overcoming his physical and mental deficiencies in his own end, so that he can open up that offensive talent when he has the chance.

I think he's got that willingness and dedication, just not sure if it'll be enough.

 

[TheOllieC]

Said it before and I'll say it again, I'm not seeing it. Carolina doesn't have the luxury of carrying a... well.. luxury player like Murphy. You can only shelter a kid so much. I would love to see him prove me wrong, there's nothing I like more than seeing a little guy like that become a legit NHLer, not sure if he'll get there though. That's not to say I'd give up on him now, as long as he can remain really cheap, I'd carry him for another 2-3 years.



I think he's got that willingness and dedication, just not sure if it'll be enough.

If Carolina was a contending playoff team then sure. But they're not and I couldn't disagree more with this.

Are they going to benefit anything from playing other (bad) farm guys like Michal Jordan, Rasmus Rissanen, or some garbage old veterans like Tim Gleason over him? No. Might as well give Murphy more time now if they want to see what they have in him.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I do agree that I'd rather give Murphy plenty of opportunity before playing AHL fodder or veteran spare parts.

 

[cptjeff]

If Carolina was a contending playoff team then sure. But they're not and I couldn't disagree more with this.

Are they going to benefit anything from playing other (bad) farm guys like Michal Jordan, Rasmus Rissanen, or some garbage old veterans like Tim Gleason over him? No. Might as well give Murphy more time now if they want to see what they have in him.

A guy like Tim Gleason would contribute a lot more to winning games than Murphy does at the moment.

A deeper, contending team can afford to keep him as an extra guy playing sheltered, specialty minutes, or to really spend time developing him. We're not that deep right now, any D-man has to be able to contribute on both sides of the puck.

There's also the question of opportunity cost. Murphy's trade value is high, and we could likely get a young, useful player back for him who fits our needs better. So is it worth hanging on to Murphy as a fringe specialty NHLer, hoping he develops a better defensive side and becomes a star, or would it be better to have a guy who may not be a star, but should be with the team for a while and can play in all situations?

I like Murphy. I want to see him succeed. But if, today, I had to make a choice between having him on the roster and having Gleason? I'd choose Gleason without much hesitation. If we could trade Murphy for a 24 year old version of Gleason, an all situations, reliable 4-6 D? I think that deal would make the team better now. Murphy's offensive skill is exciting, but he needs to be sheltered defensively, and we don't have the players to shelter him defensively like some other teams can. He has to develop a much better defensive side to his game, or he's not going to be a useful player for us. Or, other D prospects have to develop a strong enough defensive side that we will have the depth to shelter him, which is not really an implausible scenario. Actually, I think it's more plausible than Murphy ever developing a decent defensive side to his game.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Since when do "fringe specialty players" have high trade value?

If the Hurricanes trade Murphy, they're getting the forward equivalent in return. Someone whose NHL career has mostly been defined by the word "potential". A project.

This is the exact same logic people were using to argue for trading Skinner, citing it would help the defense, fill a position of need by sacrificing a position of strength, etc. And how screwed would the 'Canes be now if they had gone through this hypothetical trade?

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

scratch that

 

[cptjeff]

Since when do "fringe specialty players" have high trade value?

If the Hurricanes trade Murphy, they're getting the forward equivalent in return. Someone whose NHL career has mostly been defined by the word "potential". A project.

This is the exact same logic people were using to argue for trading Skinner, citing it would help the defense, fill a position of need by sacrificing a position of strength, etc. And how screwed would the 'Canes be now if they had gone through this hypothetical trade?

Murphy has very real star potential and can contribute now as an offensive specialist. He has a pretty decent trade value with that, and you could get a guy of a similar age who has a lower ceiling but is likely to be a steady lower pairing guy for many years.

And comparisons to Skinner aren't all that useful. Skinner stepped in as an 18 year old and became an all star. Murphy has not done that, and he plays in a position where defensive ability is dramatically more important. With trading Skinner, you're talking about trading a proven NHL player. With Murphy, you're talking about trading a prospect, and you can afford to have an offense only forward or three. And trading Skinner wasn't necessarily a bad idea a few years ago, we had major issues on defense and trading him could have fixed them. Not every trade is selling for spare parts in desperation- sometimes you make a hockey move that benefits both teams. It's not about dealing from strength or not when it comes to trading a Murphy or a Skinner, it's about making an even deal that better fits the needs of each team. You also can't say the Canes would be screwed now if they had traded Skinner, because we put a lot of resources into fixing the D recently, and we would have put those resources into forwards instead if the D was already fixed from a Skinner trade.

 

[RodTheBawd]

If Carolina was a contending playoff team then sure. But they're not and I couldn't disagree more with this.

Welp, that is quite literally the exact opposite of what I assumed to be general common knowledge. Interesting.

 

[NotOpie]

A guy like Tim Gleason would contribute a lot more to winning games than Murphy does at the moment.

A deeper, contending team can afford to keep him as an extra guy playing sheltered, specialty minutes, or to really spend time developing him. We're not that deep right now, any D-man has to be able to contribute on both sides of the puck.

There's also the question of opportunity cost. Murphy's trade value is high, and we could likely get a young, useful player back for him who fits our needs better. So is it worth hanging on to Murphy as a fringe specialty NHLer, hoping he develops a better defensive side and becomes a star, or would it be better to have a guy who may not be a star, but should be with the team for a while and can play in all situations?

I like Murphy. I want to see him succeed. But if, today, I had to make a choice between having him on the roster and having Gleason? I'd choose Gleason without much hesitation. If we could trade Murphy for a 24 year old version of Gleason, an all situations, reliable 4-6 D? I think that deal would make the team better now. Murphy's offensive skill is exciting, but he needs to be sheltered defensively, and we don't have the players to shelter him defensively like some other teams can. He has to develop a much better defensive side to his game, or he's not going to be a useful player for us. Or, other D prospects have to develop a strong enough defensive side that we will have the depth to shelter him, which is not really an implausible scenario. Actually, I think it's more plausible than Murphy ever developing a decent defensive side to his game.

Here's the scoop. Ryan Murphy is 22 years old, not 25. We should not be in any hurry to either get rid of or devalue that asset quite yet. Currently we have 6 to 8 guys who will likely make the NHL roster on defense: Faulk, Wisniewski, Hainsey, Liles, Jordan, Hanifin and maybe Murphy and/or Biega. In Charlotte we'll have Carrick, Slavin, Pesce, Lowe, Rissanen, Ganly and one or two of Murphy and/or Biega. There are a few other guys on AHL/ECHL contracts down in Charlotte too (Chelios, Agosta). My guess is we keep 7 defensemen in Raleigh and 8 in Charlotte. You don't want that 7th guy on the NHL squad to be Ryan Murphy. You want him getting big minutes in all situations in Charlotte if he doesn't capture a top 6 role. Maybe that pushes a Ganly down to FL. Maybe you end up moving a guy like Keegan Lowe. But you don't move a guy like Ryan Murphy without giving him another year or two to marinate with the Checkers.

We should never assume that all he's going to be is some sort of special situations guy who has to be protected. If that happens then you bite the bullet and get what you can for him, but not until you're darn sure that he's not going to continue to develop. That's just poor asset management. The reality is that until we're sure that guys like Fleury and McKeown are going to continue their development path, we still don't have the defensive depth to start trading away. The only guy that I might consider moving would be Keegan Lowe because I think Tyler Ganly is a younger, quicker version. We need Rissanen's leadership in Charlotte. We need the ongoing development of Biega and Carrick to show hope to the youngsters. We need Pesce and Slavin to prove that they belong in the pros. We've got a nice stepping stone progression lined up on our blue line over the next 3 or 4 years and we shouldn't thin that herd out quite yet.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Here's the scoop. Ryan Murphy is 22 years old, not 25. We should not be in any hurry to either get rid of or devalue that asset quite yet. Currently we have 6 to 8 guys who will likely make the NHL roster on defense: Faulk, Wisniewski, Hainsey, Liles, Jordan, Hanifin and maybe Murphy and/or Biega. In Charlotte we'll have Carrick, Slavin, Pesce, Lowe, Rissanen, Ganly and one or two of Murphy and/or Biega. There are a few other guys on AHL/ECHL contracts down in Charlotte too (Chelios, Agosta). My guess is we keep 7 defensemen in Raleigh and 8 in Charlotte. You don't want that 7th guy on the NHL squad to be Ryan Murphy. You want him getting big minutes in all situations in Charlotte if he doesn't capture a top 6 role. Maybe that pushes a Ganly down to FL. Maybe you end up moving a guy like Keegan Lowe. But you don't move a guy like Ryan Murphy without giving him another year or two to marinate with the Checkers.

We should never assume that all he's going to be is some sort of special situations guy who has to be protected. If that happens then you bite the bullet and get what you can for him, but not until you're darn sure that he's not going to continue to develop. That's just poor asset management. The reality is that until we're sure that guys like Fleury and McKeown are going to continue their development path, we still don't have the defensive depth to start trading away. The only guy that I might consider moving would be Keegan Lowe because I think Tyler Ganly is a younger, quicker version. We need Rissanen's leadership in Charlotte. We need the ongoing development of Biega and Carrick to show hope to the youngsters. We need Pesce and Slavin to prove that they belong in the pros. We've got a nice stepping stone progression lined up on our blue line over the next 3 or 4 years and we shouldn't thin that herd out quite yet.

 

[HoneyBrownTown]

Murphy = Rafalski

I just hope we have Murphy at 26yo

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

If Carolina was a contending playoff team then sure. But they're not and I couldn't disagree more with this.

Are they going to benefit anything from playing other (bad) farm guys like Michal Jordan, Rasmus Rissanen, or some garbage old veterans like Tim Gleason over him? No. Might as well give Murphy more time now if they want to see what they have in him.

I do agree that I'd rather give Murphy plenty of opportunity before playing AHL fodder or veteran spare parts.

I'm not sure I'm of the same opinion, but it depends. If Jordan or Rissanen is the #7 D or even a #6 with sheltered minutes, I'd much rather have those guys in that role than Murphy. If that's the case, put Murphy in the AHL where he'll get top pairing minutes and play in all situations to continue to develop his game. You can't convince me he won't benefit from more time in the AHL, particularly on the defensive side of things. He's spent a grand total of 50 games in the AHL, which to me, is light for a guy that still needs development. I thought his stint last year in the AHL did a lot of good for him.

On the flipside, if he's going to get significant minutes in a role that lets him continue to develop in the NHL, then that's a different story.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

If Murphy has "very real star potential", why would the canes trade him for a bottom pairing defenseman? You can get those in free agency. Or wait for one of our 50 defensemen to become one. Or just wait for Murphy to become a supahstah and stick him on the 3rd pairing.

Go to the trade board and see what other hand offer for Murphy. There's this odd disconnect that Murphy is going to suck balls here: but for some reason other teams covet him and will give up something good (though we backtracked, I guess, cause I would hardly argue a bottom pairing guy as good).

 

[tarheelhockey]

I'm not sure I'm of the same opinion, but it depends. If Jordan or Rissanen is the #7 D or even a #6 with sheltered minutes, I'd much rather have those guys in that role than Murphy. If that's the case, put Murphy in the AHL where he'll get top pairing minutes and play in all situations to continue to develop his game.

I agree, the biggest thing is that he needs to get ice time. Personally, I'd rather that be at the NHL level given where we are as a team right now. I don't see a lot of benefit to playing a guy like Liles over Murphy, unless it's a game that could really be rough on a young defenseman (ie, against a Pittsburgh or Chicago).

 

[I am toxic]

Cue spectacular toe stop.

I posted this on the Ex-Canucks thread in the Vancouver forum.

If you've ever done powerslides/backside pushes, you'll appreciate this.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I'm pretty sure I'd tear three muscles and a ligament trying to do that.