Potential Atlanta NHL Expansion Team Thread

[BMN]

Well, I do think there is one good point...I'm a bit disappointed to see this car dealership guy I've never heard of being the face of the project. I was hoping for an investment owner/group with some clout and big $$ backing.

I also hope he's got a backup plan for all that proposed office space. No way they sign the leases for that amount of space that far up 400. Office market isn't doing so well to begin with.

I share the skepticism.

I'm a firm believer that if someone wants to put together an enterprise to woo the NHL back to Atlanta, it needs to be a top-rate organization of heavy backers, hockey minds and thorough planning. Not just "well, I'm the one who bought the big plot of land, so come look at me."

I maintain that any city (not just Atlanta, any city) is better off going another ten years without the NHL than to rush into an ill-advised project that will fail and thus taint the marketing potential of the sport within the city. Atlanta is already fighting uphill with the "it failed twice" and "this is great news for Canada because this is how they get teams" rhetoric. The last thing it needs to have saddled to it is "Oh, and BTW, the specific location is ill-conceived and these people probably don't have the money....."

 

[Yukon Joe]

I assume the idea is to get a major partner backer, and he's the face of the development.

Like Chipman in Winnipeg is exactly the same - car dealership guy - but he partnered up with David Thompson, who we never hear from at all.

Very weird the project is still so far along yet appears to be still trying to court that person though, but I don't know if that's par for the course for US major developments like this.

The thing is that as far as I can tell it is not far along. They've done some design work and bought the land, but that's a tiny fraction of what's needed.

It does seem at first blush like they're looking for the city/county to bankroll the thing.

 

[varsaku]

Well, I do think there is one good point...I'm a bit disappointed to see this car dealership guy I've never heard of being the face of the project. I was hoping for an investment owner/group with some clout and big $$ backing.

I also hope he's got a backup plan for all that proposed office space. No way they sign the leases for that amount of space that far up 400. Office market isn't doing so well to begin with.

Seems like the worst time to invest in building more office space. Most companies are trying to get people to come back to the office to work and are struggling to do so.

 

[MMC]

Any chance the Hawks decide to move in?

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Any chance the Hawks decide to move in?

No chance. Tony Resler had a hand in recent renovations to State Farm arena. Plus, he has investment in the mixed-use development that is currently going up across the street, Centennial Yards. His brother is actually on the development team, CIM Group.

 

[aqib]

I don't get it. Why would they laugh?

Because a car dealer says he's going to build a $2 billion development of which $1 billion is an arena that he says will be profitable even if there is no team in it.

 

[nhlfan79]

Because a car dealer says he's going to build a $2 billion development of which $1 billion is an arena that he says will be profitable even if there is no team in it.

Say you know nothing about Atlanta's northern suburbs without saying you know nothing about Atlanta's northern suburbs.

The simple fact is that, given a choice, the people who live in this area of town would much rather go to a work/shop/play destination like "The Gathering" near them than face hours of traffic to go downtown for an event. If you've ever been to where State Farm and MBS are located, apart from tailgating in a sea of parking lots ("the gulch"), there's almost no places to hang out before or after a game, nor would you really want to in that area. (Granted, that all may change when Centennial Yards gets fully built by 2026 and transforms that entire section of downtown).

The Battery is killing it in Cobb County because there are two dozen excellent bars and restaurants just outside the gates of Truist Park, which are busy even on non-game days. If they replicate that concept at The Gathering, it will be packed every day, especially so if there's an NHL anchor tenant. If the team's owners have a hand in all of the ancillary revenue in the development like Liberty Media does with the Braves and the Battery, it'll be a license to print money, guaranteed.

 

[aqib]

Say you know nothing about Atlanta's northern suburbs without saying you know nothing about Atlanta's northern suburbs.

The simple fact is that, given a choice, the people who live in this area of town would much rather go to a work/shop/play destination like "The Gathering" near them than face hours of traffic to go downtown for an event. If you've ever been to where State Farm and MBS are located, apart from tailgating in a sea of parking lots ("the gulch"), there's almost no places to hang out before or after a game, nor would you really want to in that area. (Granted, that all may change when Centennial Yards gets fully built by 2026 and transforms that entire section of downtown).

The Battery is killing it in Cobb County because there are two dozen excellent bars and restaurants just outside the gates of Truist Park, which are busy even on non-game days. If they replicate that concept at The Gathering, it will be packed every day, especially so if there's an NHL anchor tenant. If the team's owners have a hand in all of the ancillary revenue in the development like Liberty Media does with the Braves and the Battery, it'll be a license to print money, guaranteed.

I don't dispute people would rather go to the suburban arena as opposed to downtown. I understand traffic. Just saying that a $1 billion arena without an anchor tenant would not be profitable by itself. If that was the case then the Markham, Ontario arena project would have been a slam dunk at $325 million.

Truist Park cost $660 million, had a guarantee of 81 home dates, and didn't have to compete with another similar sized venue. This arena you're talking $1 billion and you'll have to compete with State Farm for all the non-sports events. So if a band is doing a show State Farm and this arena would both be bidding for it thereby driving the prices down.

So yeah its comical.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

The simple fact is that, given a choice, the people who live in this area of town would much rather go to a work/shop/play destination like "The Gathering" near them than face hours of traffic to go downtown for an event. If you've ever been to where State Farm and MBS are located, apart from tailgating in a sea of parking lots ("the gulch"), there's almost no places to hang out before or after a game, nor would you really want to in that area. (Granted, that all may change when Centennial Yards gets fully built by 2026 and transforms that entire section of downtown).

Truist Park cost $660 million, had a guarantee of 81 home dates, and didn't have to compete with another similar sized venue. This arena you're talking $1 billion and you'll have to compete with State Farm for all the non-sports events. So if a band is doing a show State Farm and this arena would both be bidding for it thereby driving the prices down.

Overall, my opinion on all this falls in the middle to include all these points. I do think an NHL-team anchored mixed-use development located within the northern suburbs would be a great success in terms of revenue and popularity within the city.

However, I'm not thrilled that this is backed and promoted by a "small-time" investor with little experience in development. If he is set on building this arena without an anchor tenant (NHL team), then he better be willing to sell the arena to this possible owner or it'll never get off the ground.

A TON still needs to go Atlanta's way for this to get done, but I am happy there is movement, news, and excitement being generated.

 

[BMN]

Overall, my opinion on all this falls in the middle to include all these points. I do think an NHL-team anchored mixed-use development located within the northern suburbs would be a great success in terms of revenue and popularity within the city.

However, I'm not thrilled that this is backed and promoted by a "small-time" investor with little experience in development. If he is set on building this arena without an anchor tenant (NHL team), then he better be willing to sell the arena to this possible owner or it'll never get off the ground.

A TON still needs to go Atlanta's way for this to get done, but I am happy there is movement, news, and excitement being generated.

I'm with you in terms of being "healthily skeptical." I loathe the live-work-play mixed use phenomenon but I'm also keenly aware this isn't about *me*, I know damn well this would play well in an affluent Atlanta suburb if done right.

I would also caution making analogies to other teams in ATL like it's apples-to-apples. Don't like it when people make the ATLUTD comparison without proper context, ditto the Braves. The Braves as a brand had a half-century history as a southeastern institution behind them before they finally got to the burbs + (as aforementioned), baseball teams guarantee twice the nights of traffic of a NHL team.

For me, it really is a "show me the money" thing.

 

[Major4Boarding]

Well, I do think there is one good point...I'm a bit disappointed to see this car dealership guy I've never heard of being the face of the project. I was hoping for an investment owner/group with some clout and big $$ backing.

I also hope he's got a backup plan for all that proposed office space. No way they sign the leases for that amount of space that far up 400. Office market isn't doing so well to begin with.

The COO with Blackstone was on CNBC this morning and touched upon this very topic. The consensus (he claimed) is this. Commercial REITs will be fine, as long as they're new buildings. Others, like Morgan Stanley however, see even more headwinds than the last month for Commerical Real Estate (especially Office REITs) because of even further tightening on lending.

Which brings me back to what's been bouncing around in my head the last 48 hours. Isn't there more existing availability for office space back in Alpharetta vs Forsyth, where you'd almost start from scratch? And, as you stated, that much further north?

I'll throw some pepper into the pot. Is this a front to jumpstart Alpharetta to get going?

 

[KevFu]

The Milwaukee Brewers were owned for decades by a car dealership owner, Allen Bud Selig; then his daughter when he became commissioner.

The Utah Jazz were owned by a car dealership owner, Larry Miller, for decades. Now Salt Lake's MLB Expansion bid is by.... Mrs. Larry Miller (as Larry has since died).

Those are just off the top of my head, I assume there are others. Let's not pretend that a guy with money being a car dealership owner means anything. An ownership group either has the money, or they don't. As long as it's not wealth from illegal activities, no one cares where the money is from.

 

[GreenHornet]

The Milwaukee Brewers were owned for decades by a car dealership owner, Allen Bud Selig; then his daughter when he became commissioner.

The Utah Jazz were owned by a car dealership owner, Larry Miller, for decades. Now Salt Lake's MLB Expansion bid is by.... Mrs. Larry Miller (as Larry has since died).

Those are just off the top of my head, I assume there are others. Let's not pretend that a guy with money being a car dealership owner means anything. An ownership group either has the money, or they don't. As long as it's not wealth from illegal activities, no one cares where the money is from.

Don’t forget David McDavid.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Say you know nothing about Atlanta's northern suburbs without saying you know nothing about Atlanta's northern suburbs.

The simple fact is that, given a choice, the people who live in this area of town would much rather go to a work/shop/play destination like "The Gathering" near them than face hours of traffic to go downtown for an event. If you've ever been to where State Farm and MBS are located, apart from tailgating in a sea of parking lots ("the gulch"), there's almost no places to hang out before or after a game, nor would you really want to in that area. (Granted, that all may change when Centennial Yards gets fully built by 2026 and transforms that entire section of downtown).

The Battery is killing it in Cobb County because there are two dozen excellent bars and restaurants just outside the gates of Truist Park, which are busy even on non-game days. If they replicate that concept at The Gathering, it will be packed every day, especially so if there's an NHL anchor tenant. If the team's owners have a hand in all of the ancillary revenue in the development like Liberty Media does with the Braves and the Battery, it'll be a license to print money, guaranteed.

Not to go full on "Housing and transit is the root of all North American issues," but... well I'm going to do it anyway.

The traffic you complain about here is a function of demand - If this development is successful, the demand will be there, along with a lot of traffic, unless it's in a location way easier for transit.

 

[KevFu]

Not to go full on "Housing and transit is the root of all North American issues," but... well I'm going to do it anyway.

The traffic you complain about here is a function of demand - If this development is successful, the demand will be there, along with a lot of traffic, unless it's in a location way easier for transit.

The fact that our country has crumbling infrastructure is totally correct and a massive problem (recent rise in train derailments. Bridge collapses, a NYC parking garage had a partial collapse like yesterday).

But old dense cities where there's just stuff everywhere makes it really hard to fix infrastructure, while you CAN put in adequate infrastructure away from downtown.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

The COO with Blackstone was on CNBC this morning and touched upon this very topic. The consensus (he claimed) is this. Commercial REITs will be fine, as long as they're new buildings. Others, like Morgan Stanley however, see even more headwinds than the last month for Commerical Real Estate (especially Office REITs) because of even further tightening on lending.

Which brings me back to what's been bouncing around in my head the last 48 hours. Isn't there more existing availability for office space back in Alpharetta vs Forsyth, where you'd almost start from scratch? And, as you stated, that much further north?

I'll throw some pepper into the pot. Is this a front to jumpstart Alpharetta to get going?

Well, the main problem (more specifically) are the older office assets. There has been a flight to quality for occupiers with leases up, mainly taking half as much space, but parlaying some of that cost into Class A+ office. REITs with a diverse portfolio (multifamily, industrial, retail) will do fine. I question if the office market will ever be the same.

The Atlanta office market is no different. Older office stock everywhere, including the burbs, is struggling. Sublease space on the market is the highest it's ever been, too. New office is doing...OK. In Alpharetta, it's Avalon which the proposed site would somewhat mimic. But 1MSF?? GTFO...no way.

 

[Major4Boarding]

Well, the main problem (more specifically) are the older office assets. There has been a flight to quality for occupiers with leases up, mainly taking half as much space, but parlaying some of that cost into Class A+ office. REITs with a diverse portfolio (multifamily, industrial, retail) will do fine. I question if the office market will ever be the same.

The Atlanta office market is no different. Older office stock everywhere, including the burbs, is struggling. Sublease space on the market is the highest it's ever been, too. New office is doing...OK. In Alpharetta, it's Avalon which the proposed site would somewhat mimic. But 1MSF?? GTFO...no way.

I’m tracking. As I stated earlier, it’s been a while since I’ve been to either Alpharetta or Norcross, but both offices were in some rather old complexes. I have no problem sharing who my previous employer was (privately) but you’re very spot on, AW.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

I’m tracking. As I stated earlier, it’s been a while since I’ve been to either Alpharetta or Norcross, but both offices were in some rather old complexes. I have no problem sharing who my previous employer was (privately) but you’re very spot on, AW.

I have this feeling we're working/have worked with competitors...LOL. Sounds like we're in the same field.

Yeah, as you already know, the bulk of North Fulton office is 4-5-story boxes built in the early 2000's. Not many amenities and emptying out. Pretty sure CIM Group had to pivot with Centennial Yards Downtown and hold off on any office for now. Looks like they're just concentrating on retail for now.

 

[AintLifeGrand]

I guess I'm not sure about this exactly, but I know most teams fly charter. Do they fly regional jets on charter or 737 sized jets charter?

If it's the former, it looks like PDK can handle it.

Not sure if most Part 135 (charter) Op specs would allow for PDK in a heavy like a 737.....the runway is quite short for even larger private jets such as Global Express, G550/GV etc (only 6,000') There might not be enough margin for Part 135 ops with a contaminated runway, days with high density altitude etc. PDK is also not an Intl airport (meaning it has no CBP presence so they would have to clear customs in Hartsfield anyways when flying back from Montreal etc).

I work in aviation, am at PDK a bunch, family has a small plane hangared there and I've never seen a 737 or A320 take off/land there in my 35 years of life

Cobb County Intl/ Mccollum field is probably the closest and does have a CBP facility, and does have a longer runway than PDK..that would be the only potential viable option, but the Braves don't even fly out of there..

Most likely the Forysthe County team would use Signature at Hartsfield like all the other pro teams use- Additionally Delta would obviously be handling the charter for this team as well.

This is another reason the Forysthe County location is problematic...either do an arena development somewhere like Chamblee/Doraville/Tucker/ fringe 285 region or put them in at State Farm and work something out with Tony Ressler

 

[AintLifeGrand]

No, it's not. Truist Park and The Battery is basically just a hair east of where Smyrna is on that map, at the junction of 285 (the Perimeter highway) and I-75. Alpharetta is at most a 10-15 minute drive north up 400 (the thinner red line that runs north from the middle of the top end of 285). Traffic outside of 285 is not as bad as inside that ring, or getting across the top end of that ring during rush hour.

Dude Forysthe County is BFE...over an hr from Buckhead to Forysthe County at 5:00pm on a weekday...

 

[tucker3434]

They’re doing it in Forsyth for the money. The land was cheaper, and Forsyth really needs something like this to serve as a magnet and draw more people (and tax dollars) north. I’m sure they are very willing to negotiate friendly terms for this development. This particular project with this set of investors may have been there or nowhere.

Though I’d agree that 1msf of office is odd. Very little hope that someone is going to want to drop an HQ in there and gobble up a huge chunk like they have at the battery. There will probably be that level of demand 20 years from now. Today, I’d want to lean heavily into the retail while the post-pandemic office market continues to sort itself out.

 

[aqib]

The Milwaukee Brewers were owned for decades by a car dealership owner, Allen Bud Selig; then his daughter when he became commissioner.

The Utah Jazz were owned by a car dealership owner, Larry Miller, for decades. Now Salt Lake's MLB Expansion bid is by.... Mrs. Larry Miller (as Larry has since died).

Those are just off the top of my head, I assume there are others. Let's not pretend that a guy with money being a car dealership owner means anything. An ownership group either has the money, or they don't. As long as it's not wealth from illegal activities, no one cares where the money is from.

Bud Selig bought the Brewers for $10.8 million in 1970. That would be $84 million today.

Larry Miller bought 50% of the Jazz for $8 million in 1985 which would be $22 million today (he got the other 50% for a$2 million in cash ($5.5 million today) forgiving $3.5 million in debt owed to him ($9.6M today) and assuming $6.5 million in debt ($17.9Million today). So his total investment was $20 million ($55 million today).

Sure car dealers could pull off investments of that size. Not $2 billion worth.

Haven't you noticed that most of the guys buying teams (in all sports today) are hedge fund/private equity guys, heirs to big fortunes, or tech founders?

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Bud Selig bought the Brewers for $10.8 million in 1970. That would be $84 million today.

Larry Miller bought 50% of the Jazz for $8 million in 1985 which would be $22 million today (he got the other 50% for a$2 million in cash ($5.5 million today) forgiving $3.5 million in debt owed to him ($9.6M today) and assuming $6.5 million in debt ($17.9Million today). So his total investment was $20 million ($55 million today).

Sure car dealers could pull off investments of that size. Not $2 billion worth.

Haven't you noticed that most of the guys buying teams (in all sports today) are hedge fund/private equity guys, heirs to big fortunes, or tech founders?

He clearly can’t do it alone. Probably has partners.

 

[KevFu]

Bud Selig bought the Brewers for $10.8 million in 1970. That would be $84 million today.

Larry Miller bought 50% of the Jazz for $8 million in 1985 which would be $22 million today (he got the other 50% for a$2 million in cash ($5.5 million today) forgiving $3.5 million in debt owed to him ($9.6M today) and assuming $6.5 million in debt ($17.9Million today). So his total investment was $20 million ($55 million today).

Sure car dealers could pull off investments of that size. Not $2 billion worth.

Haven't you noticed that most of the guys buying teams (in all sports today) are hedge fund/private equity guys, heirs to big fortunes, or tech founders?

I'm aware. Doubting someone has enough money is totally fair game, but I just felt extremely off-put by the way it was being referred to.

Like I said, no one cares how you got the money as long as you have it.

 

[GreenHornet]

I'm aware. Doubting someone has enough money is totally fair game, but I just felt extremely off-put by the way it was being referred to.

Like I said, no one cares how you got the money as long as you have it.

Well, if a person gets a vast amount of money through vastly illegal or immoral means, then I'm sure a lot of people would care. But your point is well taken, and I've seen nothing to this point that leads me to believe that Kraus has amassed whatever wealth he has through either illegal or immoral means.