Player Discussion Post Draft Discussion

[GoAwayPanarin]

Not even July and we're already trying to predict who's going to make the playoffs next year it's kind of funny isn't it what were you saying last year about Las Vegas?

Lots of things can happen. No one has any idea what the lineups going to look like yet, let's get through July and August first.

Yes outliers exist, no I don't think this team is one.

Look at the Conference and tell me who this team is head and shoulders better than? Ottawa?

At the very least, as things stand right now, they're on par with Carolina, NYI, Montreal, Buffalo (eh sorta), Detroit, etc. I'm very confident in saying that the first 2 will finish ahead of us in the standings again, and I'd bet on Montreal doing it to at the very least, they're not going to idly sit by during year 1 of Price's extension.

The roster argument is a good one, if you believe that this team has some major shit up their sleeves. Judging by their complete and utter lack of interest in this year's hottest UFA's, I'd say that they don't.

 

[Savant]

When it comes to the 2017 and 2018 drafts, the Rangers landed guys they targeted.

Not necessarily the top guys they targeted, but guys they targeted nonetheless.

Whether it works or doesn't, whether one loves the picks or hates them, the Rangers are executing a plan.

This regime got their guys and they are betting the house that they work out. Hopefully for everyone's sake it works out.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Wilde for all the tools has major IQ problems (I'm honestly surprised you like him, he fits the profile of so many D men you hate) and Samuelsson is the definition of JAG.

No, he doesn't fit the profile of defensemen I hate. I like the idea of taking high-upside players, regardless of playing style. Neither of the defensemen we took have high upside, in my opinion. And his "major IQ problems" are no worse than Miller's. Yet around here people who haven't watched Miller play will excuse it as learning the position. They won't acknowledge the same exists for Wilde. Thats before we even discuss their actual hockey skills, which is really no contest. Miller skates well. Wilde plays hockey well. Probably skates even better than Miller, actually. I'd rather compliment our picks. I'd rather not compliment the Isles, but they completely destroyed us in this draft, from what I had it as.

Don't know what JAG is. Samuelsson looks like an easy top 4 defensemen for 15 years.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I would argue that both Miller and Lundkvist have upsides as high if not higher than both Bouchard and Dobson.

Can you please explain this? Because I really don't understand it.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

No, he doesn't fit the profile of defensemen I hate. I like the idea of taking high-upside players, regardless of playing style. Neither of the defensemen we took have high upside, in my opinion. And his "major IQ problems" are no worse than Miller's. Yet around here people who haven't watched Miller play will excuse it as learning the position. They won't acknowledge the same exists for Wilde. Thats before we even discuss their actual hockey skills, which is really no contest. Miller skates well. Wilde plays hockey well. Probably skates even better than Miller, actually. I'd rather compliment our picks. I'd rather not compliment the Isles, but they completely destroyed us in this draft, from what I had it as.

Don't know what JAG is. Samuelsson looks like an easy top 4 defensemen for 15 years.

His IQ is way worse than Miller's. I can acknowledge his upside if he puts it all together but he has no idea what he's doing when he isn't rushing the puck up ice. He's almost Bouchard levels of bad in that regard. His play in 2 of the 3 zones is completely underwhelming, and its not just a factor of not knowing where to be (I can forgive that), its almost as if he doesn't give a shit.

There are a ton of similarities between him and Day. I anticipate that if he had the lofty expectations that Day did, he would have fallen even further (He's better than Day at the same stage, but not by much.)

Wilde skates well up and down the ice with the puck and has a great shot, thats really about it. I don't know if he'll be able to do the former as well in the Pros and thats really his calling card.

JAG= Just a guy. Samuelsson will be a journeyman D in this league. He's Vanilla in the bad way, LH Connor Murphy.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Rangers panicked and took lias....and yet Bob McKenzie right before the selection was made was talking about how much the rangers loved lias and how he wouldn't be surprised if we took him here...

Sure sounds like a panic move to me.

I'm sure teams like more than one player. As I mentioned, I think Andersson was a trade down candidate, in case Pettersson was gone. And at that point, they couldn't work a trade. Gorton was actually interviewed after that draft and asked if he got all the players he want, and he answered the question in a round about way, which I think shows that the answer is no.

Also, McKenzie knows all the picks before they are picked. There's a computer system where the picks are entered into prior to the teams going up on stage to announce them. McKenzie gets texted who the pick is by an executive from a team prior to it being announced. So whether or not the teams told him beforehand which players they would pick in each situation, he knows the pick. And of course he's going to frame it as the team liked that player and was scouting them a lot.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I'm sure teams like more than one player. As I mentioned, I think Andersson was a trade down candidate, in case Pettersson was gone. And at that point, they couldn't work a trade. Gorton was actually interviewed after that draft and asked if he got all the players he want, and he answered the question in a round about way, which I think shows that the answer is no.

Also, McKenzie knows all the picks before they are picked. There's a computer system where the picks are entered into prior to the teams going up on stage to announce them. McKenzie gets texted who the pick is by an executive from a team prior to it being announced. So whether or not the teams told him beforehand which players they would pick in each situation, he knows the pick. And of course he's going to frame it as the team liked that player and was scouting them a lot.

He had a list of players they were looking at before the draft even started.

Pettersson
Glass
Lias
Suzuki.

In that order.

 

[haveandare]

No, he doesn't fit the profile of defensemen I hate. I like the idea of taking high-upside players, regardless of playing style. Neither of the defensemen we took have high upside, in my opinion. And his "major IQ problems" are no worse than Miller's. Yet around here people who haven't watched Miller play will excuse it as learning the position. They won't acknowledge the same exists for Wilde. Thats before we even discuss their actual hockey skills, which is really no contest. Miller skates well. Wilde plays hockey well. Probably skates even better than Miller, actually. I'd rather compliment our picks. I'd rather not compliment the Isles, but they completely destroyed us in this draft, from what I had it as.

Don't know what JAG is. Samuelsson looks like an easy top 4 defensemen for 15 years.

People who watched them literally for a living seemed to think Miller is better. If we're going to talk about who has watched who the most, I'd trust the professional scouts have watched these guys more than anyone here.

 

[Edge]

And the Islanders drafted a Chinese player just for marketing purposes. And Tampa wasted a top-10 pick on Brett ****ing Connelly. And Columbus wasted a pick on Kerby Rychel. And Pittsburgh didn't exactly hit it out of the park with Derrick Pouliot.

People need to stop acting as if we are the only team making bad picks at the draft.

I kind of see both sides on this one.

On the one hand, I don't think we give the Rangers enough credit for their draft over the last 13 or 14 years.

On the other hand, there's this question of how many times we're going to take a goalie in the second. This draft stirred up a particularly strong reaction because of its depth and the players that were still on the board.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

His IQ is way worse than Miller's. I can acknowledge his upside if he puts it all together but he has no idea what he's doing when he isn't rushing the puck up ice. He's almost Bouchard levels of bad in that regard. His play in 2 of the 3 zones is completely underwhelming, and its not just a factor of not knowing where to be (I can forgive that), its almost as if he doesn't give a ****.

There are a ton of similarities between him and Day. I anticipate that if he had the lofty expectations that Day did, he would have fallen even further (He's better than Day at the same stage, but not by much.)

Wilde skates well up and down the ice with the puck and has a great shot, thats really about it. I don't know if he'll be able to do the former as well in the Pros and thats really his calling card.

JAG= Just a guy. Samuelsson will be a journeyman D in this league. He's Vanilla in the bad way, LH Connor Murphy.

How many games this season did you watch? Your comments sound like you are one of these who watched just the World Championships, and thinks you know all about these players based on a short tournament. Day does not have hockey skills. He skates well and he's big. Those are similarities between Miller and Day. Take a look at Wilde's points. Even if someone had never seen him play before, thats a distinct difference from Day. Day doesn't put up points. I don't know how you've concluded Samuelsson will be a journeyman. I couldn't care less if he's vanilla. He defends better than every player in this draft who wasn't picked 1OA. Connor Murphy? Why? Because their heights and weights are similar? Come on, now.

Whats funny is that everyone in the prospect forum who watched the NTDP players this year had a somewhat similar opinion. We all liked the same players, and had concerns about the same players, for the most part. And that comes from watching these guys play. It's pretty obvious if you watch enough games who is good and who isn't. The Rangers tried to outsmart everyone. They took the one player from that program projected to go in the first couple rounds who didn't really show much production, on either side of the puck.

 

[LORDE]

The argument (or excuse) that the NYR have traded away picks & were picking late now has a shelf life... the picks last draft, this draft and the future drafts will give more an indication of how good or bad our drafting is. Clark and his team will be seen for EXACTLY what they are in the next few years.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

People who watched them literally for a living seemed to think Miller is better. If we're going to talk about who has watched who the most, I'd trust the professional scouts have watched these guys more than anyone here.

As I said, the Rangers like to think they'll outsmart everyone. Goalie in the second round, and then tell us they had him "by far" the first goalie, even though there was literally not one list from people who watch these guys all season that had it as that. Andersson at 7, even though literally not one list had it as that. The Rangers have made a habit of over-drafting players compared to the consensus. They've made a habit of going off the board. Other than the 7th rounder and maybe Gross, I don't know if there was one pick in this draft that we didn't over-draft compared to the consensus. That doesn't mean I am saying they are bad picks, but we go against the consensus.

There were many around the website who watched a lot of the NTDP this season. As I said to the above poster, I don't think its a coincidence that we liked the same players, for the most part. I don't think its a coincidence that we had some concerns about the same players, for the most part. And I actually suspect the Rangers USHL scout wouldn't disagree. I don't think that person is dumb. I think that person would tell you that Miller's play wasn't very productive. But I think there's a philosophy that comes from the top with drafting that the Rangers are going to draft a certain type of player. The Rangers don't really care about going off the board. We'll see if they are right. Gorton is building his body of work, and it'll either work out or it won't.

 

[offdacrossbar]

dobson may well be the 2nd best dman in the entire draft. he's that good and he's that complete of a player.

as far as 2 way upside goes, he's got a legit shot at being a true first pair guy that plays all situations and major minutes. he's not a project, he's a pretty close sure bet to be at worse a 2nd pair stud.

with that size, skating, defense and his underrated offense he was a very good choice for us a 9

having said that, the biggest upside play for a 2way dman in the 1st round was probably miller. he has HUGE potential based on his size, strength, skating and ability to play defense. he's a big time player waiting to happen. there is risk, but its calculable and so its reasonable to make that choice.

hughes was already there and a known stud based on skating alone. boqvist, same based on his offensive game. neither play defense like k'andre miller tho.

im happy with the first 2 picks in round 1, less so with lundkvist. would have preferred keeping the other 2nd (and not drafting a goalie at 39 too ) and grabbing the underrated russian alexeyev.

 

[haveandare]

As I said, the Rangers like to think they'll outsmart everyone. Goalie in the second round, and then tell us they had him "by far" the first goalie, even though there was literally not one list from people who watch these guys all season that had it as that. Andersson at 7, even though literally not one list had it as that. The Rangers have made a habit of over-drafting players compared to the consensus. They've made a habit of going off the board. Other than the 7th rounder and maybe Gross, I don't know if there was one pick in this draft that we didn't over-draft compared to the consensus. That doesn't mean I am saying they are bad picks, but we go against the consensus.

There were many around the website who watched a lot of the NTDP this season. As I said to the above poster, I don't think its a coincidence that we liked the same players, for the most part. I don't think its a coincidence that we had some concerns about the same players, for the most part. And I actually suspect the Rangers USHL scout wouldn't disagree. I don't think that person is dumb. I think that person would tell you that Miller's play wasn't very productive. But I think there's a philosophy that comes from the top with drafting that the Rangers are going to draft a certain type of player. The Rangers don't really care about going off the board. We'll see if they are right. Gorton is building his body of work, and it'll either work out or it won't.

Miller was ranked above Wilde by many people outside of the Rangers organization though. You're making it sound as if the Rangers were the only team that thought one was better than the other. They traded up to take him at 22, presumably with knowledge he'd be going before 26. Wilde was passed on almost 20 times after that.

 

[MarkMessyay11]

Wasting second round picks on goalies multiple times. Gordie Clark making asinine statements like rating Gropp as their sixth best forward in the draft. Wasting a draft pick on the son of one of their scouts.

Chris Kreider - 19th overall in 2009. Arguably the best player taken in the 1st round after the top 6.
JT Miller - 15th overall in 2011. Arguably the best player taken in the 1st round after the top 10.
Brady Skjei - 28th overall in 2012. Arguably one of the top 4-5 defenseman taken in the first round. The others were Morgan Rielly (5th OA), Mathew Dumba (7th OA), Jacob Trouba (9th OA)...can maybe make a case for Olli Maata (22nd OA) and Ryan Murray (2nd OA).

Not to mention guys like Jesper Fast (6th round), Igor Shestyorkin (4th round), Pavel Buchnevich (3rd round), Aleksi Saarela (3rd round), Anthony Duclair (3rd round), Sean Day (3rd round), Derek Stepan (2nd round)...also Chytil and Andersson are looking like great picks so far.

My point is, we can play this game all day. Yes, they've made some bad picks in the past, but they've also made a lot of good ones. I don't like the Lindbom selection as much as most people here, but you can't ignore one side of the argument because it fits the agenda you want to push.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

How many games this season did you watch? Your comments sound like you are one of these who watched just the World Championships, and thinks you know all about these players based on a short tournament. Day does not have hockey skills. He skates well and he's big. Those are similarities between Miller and Day. Take a look at Wilde's points. Even if someone had never seen him play before, thats a distinct difference from Day. Day doesn't put up points. I don't know how you've concluded Samuelsson will be a journeyman. I couldn't care less if he's vanilla. He defends better than every player in this draft who wasn't picked 1OA. Connor Murphy? Why? Because their heights and weights are similar? Come on, now.

Whats funny is that everyone in the prospect forum who watched the NTDP players this year had a somewhat similar opinion. We all liked the same players, and had concerns about the same players, for the most part. And that comes from watching these guys play. It's pretty obvious if you watch enough games who is good and who isn't. The Rangers tried to outsmart everyone. They took the one player from that program projected to go in the first couple rounds who didn't really show much production, on either side of the puck.

I love the "Hey... I don't agree with you so you must have not watched any games" Argument.

Can I shoot back with the "Zboro, Graves>Skjei, Beargloves is top 4" stuff?

I mean if theres one thing I can say for sure, your history with evaluating defensemen is pretty suspect.

Samuelsson is everything the league is trying to get away from at the position. bad feet, stiff (like stiffer than Bouchard), no creativity. If you don't like Conor Murphy as a comp, fine, hes a LH Adam Larsson. I'd be shocked if hes anything more than a bottom pair guy who moves around the league a few times before calling it quits or going over seas.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

There were many around the website who watched a lot of the NTDP this season. As I said to the above poster, I don't think its a coincidence that we liked the same players, for the most part.

This is called Group think.

Because the guys who actually get paid to make the decisions disagreed with you guys. Not just Ranger scouts either.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Miller was ranked above Wilde by many people outside of the Rangers organization though. You're making it sound as if the Rangers were the only team that thought one was better than the other. They traded up to take him at 22, presumably with knowledge he'd be going before 26. Wilde was passed on almost 20 times after that.

Thats a poor example. Wilde, like Tolvanen last season, fell a lot at the end right before the draft because he didn't get into the college he was supposed to attend. Thats non-hockey stuff. Also, Wilde fell a lot before that the last month of hockey for this draft because of one bad tournament. He was a top 10 guy for almost two full seasons. Frankly, Miller was pretty bad at that tournament also. Somehow didn't drop. Miller's whole spot in some rankings and the fact that he was a first rounder seems to be an acknowledgement that he's not any good now, but somehow we'll teach him how to play hockey. No thanks, as far as I'm concerned. I think thats too risky of a pick in the first round.

So I don't know why you'd use Wilde falling for questionable reasons to help out Miller. It doesn't change that Miller was an unproductive player, yet we drafted him in the first round, and also gave away a second round pick in the process.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I love the "Hey... I don't agree with you so you must have not watched any games" Argument.

So no answer? As I expected. You try to come at me with irrelevant stuff to this discussion because you know what the answer is.

Its fine if the answer is no, and you are just going off videos, what you read on the internet about these players. Who am I to tell you what to do? But you should remember that you came after my opinion on a topic I seemingly have more knowledge on than you do. What do you expect the reply is going to be?

This is called Group think.

Because the guys who actually get paid to make the decisions disagreed with you guys. Not just Ranger scouts either.

Its really not.

Would it be group-think if most concluded that Lundqvist, McDonagh, etc. have been the Rangers best players the last five or so years? No, of course not. Thats the obvious type of thing anyone with any semblance of understanding of the sport would see if they saw enough of it.

As I mentioned above, you can't take a draft pick to mean our area scout had any certain type of opinion. The draft opinions, especially in the first round, come from the top.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Thats a poor example. Wilde, like Tolvanen last season, fell a lot at the end right before the draft because he didn't get into the college he was supposed to attend. Thats non-hockey stuff. Also, Wilde fell a lot before that the last month of hockey for this draft because of one bad tournament. He was a top 10 guy for almost two full seasons. Frankly, Miller was pretty bad at that tournament also. Somehow didn't drop. Miller's whole spot in some rankings and the fact that he was a first rounder seems to be an acknowledgement that he's not any good now, but somehow we'll teach him how to play hockey. No thanks, as far as I'm concerned. I think thats too risky of a pick in the first round.

So I don't know why you'd use Wilde falling for questionable reasons to help out Miller. It doesn't change that Miller was an unproductive player, yet we drafted him in the first round, and also gave away a second round pick in the process.

No he wasn't.

Your boy Samuelsson however, was. Not Wilde bad, but he set an entirely new standard for being horrible.

Also if you think Wilde fell all the way to where he did because he didn't get into college, you're out to lunch. It may have played a factor, but that isn't going to drop you from the top 10 down beyond 40.

He fell because there are some major flaws in the way that he plays and he has some attitude concerns, the latter part of that ties into the college thing.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

So no answer? As I expected. You try to come at me with irrelevant stuff to this discussion because you know what the answer is.

Its fine if the answer is no, and you are just going off videos, what you read on the internet about these players. Who am I to tell you what to do? But you should remember that you came after my opinion on a topic I seemingly have more knowledge on than you do. What do you expect the reply is going to be?

What ever makes you feel better man!

PS: Still waiting for Graves to jump ahead of Skjei on the depth chart.

 

[haveandare]

Thats a poor example. Wilde, like Tolvanen last season, fell a lot at the end right before the draft because he didn't get into the college he was supposed to attend. Thats non-hockey stuff. Also, Wilde fell a lot before that the last month of hockey for this draft because of one bad tournament. He was a top 10 guy for almost two full seasons. Frankly, Miller was pretty bad at that tournament also. Somehow didn't drop. Miller's whole spot in some rankings and the fact that he was a first rounder seems to be an acknowledgement that he's not any good now, but somehow we'll teach him how to play hockey. No thanks, as far as I'm concerned. I think thats too risky of a pick in the first round.

So I don't know why you'd use Wilde falling for questionable reasons to help out Miller. It doesn't change that Miller was an unproductive player, yet we drafted him in the first round, and also gave away a second round pick in the process.

My point was and still is that it wasn't just NYR who had Miller ranked over Wilde. Saying so fits neatly with the narrative that everything they do is off the board but it's just a fact that they weren't alone in liking Miller over Wilde. You're giving reasons that they and others who agreed with them might be wrong, but my point isn't that their evaluation was good or bad, just that they weren't nearly alone in it.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

No he wasn't.

Your boy Samuelsson however, was. Not Wilde bad, but he set an entirely new standard for being horrible.

Also if you think Wilde fell all the way to where he did because he didn't get into college, you're out to lunch. It may have played a factor, but that isn't going to drop you from the top 10 down beyond 40.

He fell because there are some major flaws in the way that he plays and he has some attitude concerns, the latter part of that ties into the college thing.

I must watch a different sport than you or maybe I watched it, and you are throwing darts at a dart board and hoping to be correct. I guess the results will come eventually, and we'll find out whether our picks or other picks have better careers. I'll leave it at that.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

What ever makes you feel better man!

PS: Still waiting for Graves to jump ahead of Skjei on the depth chart.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I must watch a different sport than you or maybe I watched it, and you are throwing darts at a dart board and hoping to be correct. I guess the results will come eventually, and we'll find out whether our picks or other picks have better careers. I'll leave it at that.

I think we both watched it, my eyes are just better than yours.