Blue Jays Discussion: post-deadline, back-at-home edition

[ref19]

2 recent games highlights flaws. The first game against the Angels he puts Thornton in a close game and pretty costs the game there. Valera playing over Espinal makes o sense. Yesterday puts in Hand over Romano.
Using the wrong relievers in wrong situations.

Kelenic is a lefty...

 

[zeke]

Lmao we legit had our $20m ace on the mound with 89 pitches and 2 runs allowed thru 6.1ip.

Unreal.

 

[zeke]

Pull Ace Ryu on 89 pitches but LEAVE DOLIS IN WITH 4 RUNNERS ALLOWED AND NO OUTS.

amazing.

 

[zeke]

90 pitches for Ray

89 pitches for Ryu.

All to get to a bullpen that has been trash all year.

Unreal.

 

[Discoverer]

90 pitches for Ray

89 pitches for Ryu.

All to get to a bullpen that has been trash all year.

Unreal.

And if you're going to the pen in a situation like that, it has to be for Romano. But he's plugged him into the Closer role so he won't use him in high leverage situation elsewhere in the game.

Dumb dumb dumb.

 

[zeke]

And if you're going to the pen in a situation like that, it has to be for Romano. But he's plugged him into the Closer role so he won't use him in high leverage situation elsewhere in the game.

Dumb dumb dumb.

It's f***ing embarrassing. What the f***.

 

[zeke]

Honestly I never criticize managers. It's almost always the players.

But yanking our two aces at 90 pitches to get to our crappy bullpen is beyond the pale.

Embarrassing really.

 

[Discoverer]

Honestly I never criticize managers. It's almost always the players.

But yanking our two aces at 90 pitches to get to our crappy bullpen is beyond the pale.

Embarrassing really.

I'm usually the same way... there's so much behind decisions like this that we don't see, so I tend to give the manager the benefit of the doubt. But he makes this kinds of decisions so consistently that it's become indefensible.

 

[Cloned]

I'm usually the same way... there's so much behind decisions like this that we don't see, so I tend to give the manager the benefit of the doubt. But he makes this kinds of decisions so consistently that it's become indefensible.

If we had to guess how many games he's actually cost us through direct decisions and indirect carryover effects (like wasting high leverage arms in low leverage situations so they can't be used in an actual high leverage situation the next game), what number are we up to now?

15? 20?

 

[trellaine201]

Ryu was pitching really well. Other than that hard hit triple. Shocking and costly.

 

[lipstickjunkie]

This has to be Charlie's last year, right? It HAS to be.

 

[paulhiggins]

this is kinda hot-takish, but listening to montoyo post game, his "hes great, im great, everything is great" garbage is just overwhelming at this point. i feel like this team has a bit too much fun and needs to take winning a little more seriously. HR jackets and athletic tape are cool and funny and are not a bad thing at all, but we need some damn intensity for a real playoff push, when the games get down to the wire this team typically seems to wilt. we need the manager to lead these talented young kids and instill in them that fun is important but buckling down and making good decisions when the chips are down are important too.

You could also copy and paste that into a Leafs thread and be equally correct!

 

[hockeywiz542]

 

[WeThreeKings]

Montoyo is the substitute teacher, he lets everyone have fun but no one really respects his authority anyways.

 

[Hoverhand]

you have to assume Dolis is at risk of getting DFA'd with Merryweather and Cole looking like they'll be making returns this season.

 

[hoglund]

A week ago I thought the Blue Jays had a good chance to get one of the wild cards, but the bullpen is still not reliable even after acquiring new ones. If I were managing I'd be leaving my pitchers in for 7 or 8 innings and many complete games. They used to do that and with this bullpen it can't be any worse to leave him in.

 

[Anthrax442]

A week ago I thought the Blue Jays had a good chance to get one of the wild cards, but the bullpen is still not reliable even after acquiring new ones. If I were managing I'd be leaving my pitchers in for 7 or 8 innings and many complete games. They used to do that and with this bullpen it can't be any worse to leave him in.

I think because they have analytics manage the bullpen, not the manager

 

[stickty111]

I think because they have analytics manage the bullpen, not the manager

Analytics don't say to put your worse pitchers in high leverage moments. This is all Montoyo.

 

[ACC1224]

I think because they have analytics manage the bullpen, not the manager

That can't be true, can it?

 

[Hoverhand]

That can't be true, can it?

Id pay 100 bucks to anyone who can find the analytics argument to having Thornton be the first man out of the pen after an off day.

 

[trellaine201]

A week ago I thought the Blue Jays had a good chance to get one of the wild cards, but the bullpen is still not reliable even after acquiring new ones. If I were managing I'd be leaving my pitchers in for 7 or 8 innings and many complete games. They used to do that and with this bullpen it can't be any worse to leave him in.

Or at least 100 pitches when there pitching well ( are you listening Charlie)

 

[hockeywiz542]

 

[Seath The Scaleless]

Blue Jays legend Drew Hutchison made his first start since 2018

Yanked after 1.2 IP

 

[The Nemesis]

That can't be true, can it?

No way. I could see the analytics department advocating for Hand because his absolute tire-fire performance is something new since he joined the Jays and he does normally have pronounced splits in favor of facing LHBs (this year he's got reverse splits, but it's a small sample, especially against lefties). So there's every reason to believe there that he should be able to right the ship if given the opportunity.

But Thornton? Even though his surface stat line says he probably shouldn't be having this much trouble there comes a point where you have to accept that the run of bad luck is long enough that it's not just going to snap and go away if you keep doing the same thing. Something has to be driving it and that needs to be fixed. And chucking him out onto the mount in situations where his performance matters isn't suddenly going to make that happen or it would have already.

Plus it's not like Thornton was a dominator before his current funk. In 2019 he was a serviceable back-of-the-rotation starter with flaws.

 

[TGB]

Springer might not be gone long. He was walking off the field without favouring the foot too much and he wasn't wincing with every step. When I rolled my ankle, I couldn't put any weight on it and I was definitely wincing.

That can't be true, can it?

Of course it's true. Just look at all the analytics people around here thinking they're all hot shit because they can Google stats. You think the Jays front office isn't full of people like that? Basically the Jays are just like the Leafs: stats darlings but can't win when it counts.

The reality is the Jays didn't start taking off until they started doing what I'VE been saying all year (because, you know, I base my opinion on stats AND observation of game results and game footage): Springer and, for some weird reason, Valera getting timely hits when it matters instead of just when they're blowing out bad pitching, great starting pitching that is allowed to go deep into games, and a focus on using just the good relievers whenever possible...or at least every now and again. Montoya seems to be falling back on bad habits there.

Even though his surface stat line says he probably shouldn't be having this much trouble there comes a point where you have to accept that the run of bad luck.

I always find it funny how stats people treat stats as some objective and inarguable truth, but when the results don't line up with their narrative, their fallback argument always goes to the highly immeasurable and unverifiable notion of luck.

As a wise man once said, "in my experience, there is no such thing as luck".