Possible trade and roster fixes for the Wings, Part III

[Flowah]

The point is, no matter how good Nyquist and Tatar are now looking, and even if they will be career-Red Wings, they will be passed by Jurco and Mantha for the 1st line duties at some point. .

That's a mighty big if for Mantha. Jurco I agree since we have seen him on display in the NHL and AHL now for a good number of games.

Mantha has yet to go play in the pros. We've seen people struggle with that transition. I'm excited, but not yet ready to call him as a star 1st line winger.

 

[The Zermanator]

Someone posted on the trade board that Dreger said Robidas is attracting interest. I'd much rather trade for and have Robidas than Edler. He would cost much less to acquire, he'd be a defensive presence that we could use and he's older so he wouldn't help create a D logjam in a few years like Edler would. He's also right-handed, I believe.

Say Kindl, Ferraro and a 2nd as a starting point for Robidas?

 

[Winger98]

We're okay giving up Helm, Nyquist, and a 1st for Kesler?!

Yeah, I can't wait for this deadline to pass now.

It's telling, though, that Helm is the piece there that bothers me the least to give up. When we're healthy I would have a problem running some combo of Z/D/Weiss as our top2 centers, then slotting Sheahan in at #3 right now. While I don't have a problem with Helm centering the fourth line, it's also a trade chip I wouldn't mind putting in play just to see what we might be able to pull back.

 

[BamaWing]

I'm not okay one bit with the Helm, Nyquist, Tatar, 1st, our entire prospect pool etc. for Kesler and Edler.

That's insane.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

To me Robidas would be a great pickup. I've been talking about a veteran defencemen who could play alongside Smith on the bottom pairing and he's as good as it gets for that role. Kindl and a 3rd or 4th maybe? I don't really know the value, but that's a move I'd look at doing.

 

[TatarTangle]

I'm not okay one bit with the Helm, Nyquist, Tatar, 1st, our entire prospect pool etc. for Kesler and Edler.

That's insane.

Insane isn't the right word. I'm not sure what is, to be honest. There is no chance Holland trades Nyquist and Tatar. I can see him trading one and making a play for Kesler though. If I'm Vancouver I'd want Nyquist over Tatar as he is the more complete player.

I think Nyquist + Helm would be fair value for Kesler. Detroit would be getting the best hockey player. Nyquist may score more points than Kesler but Kesler is essentially a right handed Nyquist and Helm hybrid.

I'm 50-50 on whether or not I'd make that trade. I think it'd be something to think about. Kesler would soften the blow of Zetterberg being out. But I'm really curious to how Tatar and Nyquist will handle the weight of a playoff run. I dunno...

 

[ZDH]

Moving Tatar or Nyquist would be dumb.

 

[The Geelee]

Moving Tatar or Nyquist would be dumb.

This.

As soon as the wings start to get younger, we want to trade likes of nyquist, tatar, jurco or sheahan for a guy like Kesler who is soon exiting his prime?

Keep the kids. Continue to develop and see these young players prosper here in Detroit.

 

[TatarTangle]

Moving Tatar or Nyquist would be dumb.

Not if the Red Wings get the best player in the deal, whatever deal that would be. Tatar and Nyquist are good but let's not pretend they are slated superstars and aren't expendable for the right player.

 

[TatarTangle]

This.

As soon as the wings start to get younger, we want to trade likes of nyquist, tatar, jurco or sheahan for a guy like Kesler who is soon exiting his prime?

Keep the kids. Continue to develop and see these young players prosper here in Detroit.

Where is this written rule that once a player hits 30 in the NHL their past their prime and their career is over?

I'm not advocating getting Kesler but I'm just curious where this notion of hockey players who just hit 30 are done came from

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Someone posted on the trade board that Dreger said Robidas is attracting interest. I'd much rather trade for and have Robidas than Edler. He would cost much less to acquire, he'd be a defensive presence that we could use and he's older so he wouldn't help create a D logjam in a few years like Edler would. He's also right-handed, I believe.

Say Kindl, Ferraro and a 2nd as a starting point for Robidas?

Robidas is healthy enough? Figured when his leg snapped like that he was one for the year.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Honestly I wouldn't even move Helm and Nyquist for Kesler. I'm not saying that because of overall value, but for this particular team it's not worth it IMO.

We actually have forward depth now. Nyquist and Helm play and will continue to play different roles and on different lines. And while Kesler overall is a better player than both of them individually, and he can play Helm's PK minutes and Nyquist's PP minutes, his replacement of them would overall hurt team depth at even strength. You improve one line, but not at the rate of worsening another. And Kesler at even strength isn't as valuable as Helm and Nyquist combined IMO. Not on this particular team. And all of that doesn't take into account that Kesler is likely on the downside of his career while Nyquist and Helm (not to mentioned a potential 1st rder) are on the upswing.

 

[Crymson]

Someone posted on the trade board that Dreger said Robidas is attracting interest. I'd much rather trade for and have Robidas than Edler. He would cost much less to acquire, he'd be a defensive presence that we could use and he's older so he wouldn't help create a D logjam in a few years like Edler would. He's also right-handed, I believe.

Say Kindl, Ferraro and a 2nd as a starting point for Robidas?

To me Robidas would be a great pickup. I've been talking about a veteran defencemen who could play alongside Smith on the bottom pairing and he's as good as it gets for that role. Kindl and a 3rd or 4th maybe? I don't really know the value, but that's a move I'd look at doing.

The Stars, who are currently in a playoff spot and have a competitive roster, have absolutely no reason to move anybody. If Dreger actually did say that---I haven't seen it---then he was only speculating.

Robidas is healthy enough? Figured when his leg snapped like that he was one for the year.

He was in significant decline to begin with. He has 13 NHL seasons under his belt and is 36 years old, and players of his style do not age well. His offense is all but gone, and he can no longer play the gritty style that had made him so effective.

 

[Detroit Sports*]

This.

As soon as the wings start to get younger, we want to trade likes of nyquist, tatar, jurco or sheahan for a guy like Kesler who is soon exiting his prime?

Keep the kids. Continue to develop and see these young players prosper here in Detroit.

Kesler is not worth more than Franzen and a few mid round picks IMO...

 

[Flowah]

Honestly I wouldn't even move Helm and Nyquist for Kesler. I'm not saying that because of overall value, but for this particular team it's not worth it IMO.

We actually have forward depth now. Nyquist and Helm play and will continue to play different roles and on different lines. And while Kesler overall is a better player than both of them individually, and he can play Helm's PK minutes and Nyquist's PP minutes, his replacement of them would overall hurt team depth at even strength. You improve one line, but not at the rate of worsening another. And Kesler at even strength isn't as valuable as Helm and Nyquist combined IMO. Not on this particular team. And all of that doesn't take into account that Kesler is likely on the downside of his career while Nyquist and Helm (not to mentioned a potential 1st rder) are on the upswing.

If everyone is healthy, we don't have enough spots on this team for even our good talent. If we can consolidate two good players into one great player, we should do it.

Z, D, Alfie, Helm, Weiss, Franzen, Nyquist, Sheahan, Jurco, Tatar. That's 10 already, 10 players who can all play in the top6 and are showing it. 2 more spots filled by guys like Glendening, Abby (who has played well this year), Miller, Andersson. If a good trade comes along where we can flip two of our guys for a better player, we wouldn't really be losing even strength depth.

Especially consider a guy like Kesler who would be with the team for at least a few years given his contract. Next year, we may see Pulk, Jarnkrok, make a bid for the team after they've both really turned it up in GR lately. That is some insane depth up and down the lineup even if we have to send two away for Kesler back.

I don't think depth is the issue. For me, it's mostly age and core. Kesler is 29, he's got what, 6 years left tops of the kind of performance expected of a top2 centerman. All the kids we don't want to give up are 22-23 or younger. They've got way more years and we may not even know their ceilings yet. We really need to be looking at life after Z/D and transitioning to a new core. That's my reason for being more hesitant on Kesler.

 

[The Zermanator]

The Stars, who are currently in a playoff spot and have a competitive roster, have absolutely no reason to move anybody. If Dreger actually did say that---I haven't seen it---then he was only speculating.

It's in the trade rumours thread, Dreger tweeted that other teams were interested.

He was in significant decline to begin with. He has 13 NHL seasons under his belt and is 36 years old, and players of his style do not age well. His offense is all but gone, and he can no longer play the gritty style that had made him so effective.

If his play is in such sharp decline, why would the Stars be so opposed to trading him? And he's a better pickup to me than Edler because he's much cheaper and he won't be taking a roster spot away from the upcoming prospects in a few years. He's a defensively reliable, two-year stopgap before Sproul and Co. are ready for the NHL.

Kindl, Ferraro and a 2nd is what I proposed. It doesn't necessarily hurt Dallas in the short term because they get an NHL-ready d-man to take Robidas' spot. They also get the security of having Kindl signed beyond this season to a reasonable contract, a luxury they don't have with Robidas. I'm not sure about their bottom 6, but they also get Ferraro who could potentially fit in now (even if only as a 13th forward).

And Robidas is irrelevant to Dallas' playoff push because he's not expected back until mid-March, likely late March/early April. It doesn't hurt us because Kindl gets scratched a lot anyway and we have Robidas for the late season and playoffs.

This is what we'd go into the playoffs with:

Kronwall-Ericsson
DeKeyser-Quincey
Smith-Robidas
Lashoff

 

[Crymson]

Especially consider a guy like Kesler who would be with the team for at least a few years given his contract.

You mean two more seasons. His contract ends in 2016.

 

[detredWINgs]

To me Robidas would be a great pickup. I've been talking about a veteran defencemen who could play alongside Smith on the bottom pairing and he's as good as it gets for that role. Kindl and a 3rd or 4th maybe? I don't really know the value, but that's a move I'd look at doing.

Robidas is far from my #1 choice, but he is a smart, gritty defenseman with leadership and experience to offer. Problem is, he's been injured for how long?

Then again, maybe Nill will give him to Detroit for a song in the same way that Bowman-Tallon always seem to be doing each other favors.

 

[TCNorthstars]

It's in the trade rumours thread, Dreger tweeted that other teams were interested.



If his play is in such sharp decline, why would the Stars be so opposed to trading him? And he's a better pickup to me than Edler because he's much cheaper and he won't be taking a roster spot away from the upcoming prospects in a few years. He's a defensively reliable, two-year stopgap before Sproul and Co. are ready for the NHL.

Kindl, Ferraro and a 2nd is what I proposed. It doesn't necessarily hurt Dallas in the short term because they get an NHL-ready d-man to take Robidas' spot. They also get the security of having Kindl signed beyond this season to a reasonable contract, a luxury they don't have with Robidas. I'm not sure about their bottom 6, but they also get Ferraro who could potentially fit in now (even if only as a 13th forward).

And Robidas is irrelevant to Dallas' playoff push because he's not expected back until mid-March, likely late March/early April. It doesn't hurt us because Kindl gets scratched a lot anyway and we have Robidas for the late season and playoffs.

This is what we'd go into the playoffs with:

Kronwall-Ericsson
DeKeyser-Smith

Lashoff-Robidas
Almquist

or

Almquist-Robidas
Lashoff

What about Quincey?

 

[The Zermanator]

What about Quincey?

Right, was thinking about next year too. Edited.

 

[Crymson]

It's in the trade rumours thread, Dreger tweeted that other teams were interested.

... which means nothing, as Nill has given no indication of willingness to move him.

If his play is in such sharp decline, why would the Stars be so opposed to trading him?

He's in his 10th season with the team, is a veteran presence and a leader in the locker room, and is a known quantity. It's bad business to trade such people, and he may yet return to be of use during the playoff push. It would be even more heinous to trade such a heart-and-soul player while he's recovering from a rather dire injury.

That's why.

Kindl, Ferraro and a 2nd is what I proposed. It doesn't necessarily hurt Dallas in the short term because they get an NHL-ready d-man to take Robidas' spot. They also get the security of having Kindl signed beyond this season to a reasonable contract, a luxury they don't have with Robidas.

It has always amused me how hockey fans tend to overvalue their team's trash---i.e. the very players whom they'd like to see moved because of poor play---when proposing trades.

Kindl has had an awful season and is unlikely to crack the top six unless someone goes down. He is frightfully inconsistent in offensive production and is a liability on defense. He's currently the team's #7 defenseman and has almost entirely established himself as a disappointment. Given that he is also paid $2.5m, there is little reason for anyone to want him. Certainly Nill, who is perfectly aware of Kindl's shortcomings, will not be particularly interested, especially as Dallas currently has six viable defensemen already; even Aaron Rome is a better option than Kindl.

And Robidas is irrelevant to Dallas' playoff push because he's not expected back until mid-March, likely late March/early April.

Wrong. Mid-March is very soon. How would this render him irrelevant? And were he irrelevant to the Stars' push, why would Holland be interested in him to begin with? The Wings are in a battle to make the playoffs right now; Holland wouldn't expend assets to acquire a guy incapable of helping that happen.

 

[Birko19]

If the Wings are smart, they don't trade anyone young. We have a good young core being built and most importantly, there's chemistry. Give them a few years to develop together and we'll have a contender in no time. No sense of blowing away our future for a guy or two even if they were proven.

 

[The Zermanator]

... which means nothing, as Nill has given no indication of willingness to move him.

Welcome to an internet message board, where nothing means anything. Unless you're secretly Ken Holland?

It's bad business to trade such people, and he may yet return to be of use during the playoffs. It would be even more heinous to trade such a player while he's recovering from a rather dire injury.

That's why.

Heinous? Really? This is pro sports, people get traded. He was rumoured to be available before his injury, his injury is only relevant regarding when he will return.

It has always amused me how hockey fans tend to overvalue their team's trash---i.e. the very players whom they'd like to see moved because of poor play---when proposing trades.

Kindl has had an awful season and is unlikely to crack the top six unless someone goes down. He is frightfully inconsistent in offensive production and is a liability on defense. He's currently the team's #7 defenseman and has almost entirely established himself as a disappointment. Given that he is also paid $2.5m, there is little reason for anyone to want him. Certainly Nill, who is perfectly aware of Kindl's shortcomings, will not be particularly interested, especially as Dallas currently has six viable defensemen already; even Aaron Rome is a better option than Kindl.

I think you're selling Kindl short here. He's not as bad as you make it seem. And given better opportunities which he may receive in Dallas (PP for example) his offence has good potential to improve.

Robidas is more valuable than Kindl, though. That's why Ferraro and the 2nd are involved.

Wrong. Mid-March is very soon. How would this render him irrelevant? And were he irrelevant to the Stars' push, why would Holland be interested in him to begin with? The Wings are in a battle to make the playoffs right now; Holland wouldn't expend assets to acquire a guy incapable of helping that happen.

Mid-March is VERY optimistic. It's likely late March/early April. If he's even back before the end of the season, Dallas' playoff spot (or lack thereof) will likely be settled.

And this doesn't negatively impact Detroit's playoff push because Kindl doesn't play much anyway.

 

[Crymson]

Welcome to an internet message board, where everything means nothing. Unless you're secretly Ken Holland?

Nice strawman argument there.

Heinous? Really? This is pro sports, people get traded. He was rumoured to be available before his injury, his injury is only relevant regarding when he will return.

Heinous was an exaggeration, but it would be very bad form and probably bad for morale.

I think you're selling Kindl short here. He's not as bad as you make it seem. And given better opportunities which he may receive in Dallas (PP for example) his offence has good potential to improve.

Power play time? Seriously? Kindl is #2 amongst Red Wings defensemen in both absolute PP time and PP time per game. If you hadn't noticed, he's the pointman on the 2nd power play unit whenever he's in the roster. He has proven thoroughly ineffective in that role. In short, he has been given every chance to succeed in Detroit and has failed to thrive. Once again, Nill knows all of this from experience.

It's unlikely that he'd see power play time in Dallas at all, let alone more than he's gotten in Detroit.

Robidas is more valuable than Kindl, though. That's why Ferraro and the 2nd are involved.

... how do you judge that he's more valuable? He was having a mediocre season when he went down, and he hasn't played a game in nearly four months. Neither of them has much trade value at the moment, though Robidas is useful to the Stars in other ways.

Never would I give up a prospect and a 2nd for the guy. Holland won't either. You're almost certainly remembering 2008 Robidas. That ain't him anymore.

 

[The Zermanator]

Nice strawman argument there.

No straw man, this is an internet message board. None of us are employed by a team. We hear rumours and news and we comment on them. End of.

Heinous was an exaggeration, but it would be very bad form and probably bad for morale.

No bad form. He was rumoured to be available before the injury. The rumours went away because no one wants to acquire a guy who will be out for a long time. He's almost back so up pop the rumours again.

And I seriously doubt NHL players are so sensitive that their morale will be negatively affected by an impending UFA being traded.

Power play time? Seriously? Kindl is #2 amongst Red Wings defensemen in both absolute PP time and PP time per game. If you hadn't noticed, he's the pointman on the 2nd power play unit whenever he's in the roster. He has proven thoroughly ineffective in that role. In short, he has been given every chance to succeed in Detroit and has failed to thrive. Once again, Nill knows all of this from experience.

It's unlikely that he'd see power play time in Dallas at all, let alone more than he's gotten in Detroit.

He won't light the league on fire but Kindl has been far from the only issue with Detroit's power play this season. He can hold the blue line well and he's got a decent shot.

... how do you judge that he's more valuable? He was having a mediocre season when he went down, and he hasn't played a game in nearly four months. Neither of them has much trade value at the moment, though Robidas is useful to the Stars in other ways.

How can you say that I'm offering Detroit's trash (Kindl) and then object when I say Robidas is more valuable? Robidas' season wasn't that bad. 7 pts in 24 gms and a +5. Numbers are decent. And other teams wouldn't be interested if his play was crap.

Never would I give up a prospect and a 2nd for the guy. Holland won't either. You're almost certainly remembering 2008 Robidas. That ain't him anymore.

With his waiver eligibility running out, we may lose him for nothing anyway.