Confirmed with Link: POJ traded to Penguins for Future Considerations

[Stupendous Yappi]

I don't agree with Armstrong there. And I'd argue Armstring is being a being a bit of a salesman with it mkre than he believes it matters. If it was soo important we be competitive for the young players. Why has he been filling holes with the cheapest possible options until now?

We went dumpster diving this off season prior to the offer sheets. Our guiding principle was taking bad contracts to get free players or players with picks who may turn things around. Now suddenly he wants to be competitive when we entered the season with 1 top 6 C? I do not buy it.

You were just complaining about him not trading Binnington and Buchnevich. He’s been consistent with this philosophy. But you can’t conjure good players out of the air. Signing free agents to short contracts is something EVERY GM needs to do to fill out the roster. You make good arguments a lot of the time, but this time it’s irrational.

 

[Reality Czech]

People that never played don't value the importance if a winning culture and playing important games.

It's easy for a fan to say the team should just tank and lose games but most professional athletes hate losing and just want to feel like management has their back. By letting the team flounder and not attempt to make short term moves to help the team when possible would send a terrible message and really hurt team morale.

Army is pretty open and honest when discussing most of his moves so I'm not sure why people just don't take him at his word. People don't have to agree with his decisions but there shouldn't be any confusion about why he makes the moves he does. A lot of fans seem to think if the team isn't going to contend for a Cup then why even try to win, but that's certainly not how players, GMs and coaches think.

 

[Majorityof1]

It's easy for a fan to say the team should just tank and lose games but most professional athletes hate losing and just want to feel like management has their back. By letting the team flounder and not attempt to make short term moves to help the team when possible would send a terrible message and really hurt team morale.

Army is pretty open and honest when discussing most of his moves so I'm not sure why people just don't take him at his word. People don't have to agree with his decisions but there shouldn't be any confusion about why he makes the moves he does. A lot of fans seem to think if the team isn't going to contend for a Cup then why even try to win, but that's certainly not how players, GMs and coaches think.

If you think Army is open and honest then I'm sure he has some lovely ocean-front property in St. Louis he'd be happy to sell you. He's one cagey MF. Everything he says is calculated. I don't think he lies but he never gives you the whole truth.

Army said there was a plan, he wasn't going to rush and he was going to focus on players that fit within the core. He kept reiterating they were sticking to the plan. Then he makes a mid-season trade for one of the oldest players on the team. If he's so open and honest, why did he trade for a 33 year old with less than 2 years when he said he was looking for 26 year olds with term?

The players know it's a business and know it's a cap league. They understand sometimes you need to take a step back to go forward. If they didn't every team that has ever been a seller at the deadline would be mired in permanent losing. The Blues traded away players at the deadline the 2 deadlines in a row before winning the cup, both years they were in the playoff hunt (Shatty in 2017, Stasny in 2018). Did the players suddenly quit because the GM didn't believe in them?

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

If you think Army is open and honest then I'm sure he has some lovely ocean-front property in St. Louis he'd be happy to sell you. He's one cagey MF. Everything he says is calculated. I don't think he lies but he never gives you the whole truth.

Army said there was a plan, he wasn't going to rush and he was going to focus on players that fit within the core. He kept reiterating they were sticking to the plan. Then he makes a mid-season trade for one of the oldest players on the team. If he's so open and honest, why did he trade for a 33 year old with less than 2 years when he said he was looking for 26 year olds with term?

The players know it's a business and know it's a cap league. They understand sometimes you need to take a step back to go forward. If they didn't every team that has ever been a seller at the deadline would be mired in permanent losing. The Blues traded away players at the deadline the 2 deadlines in a row before winning the cup, both years they were in the playoff hunt (Shatty in 2017, Stasny in 2018). Did the players suddenly quit because the GM didn't believe in them?

I see no contradiction at all. Acquiring Fowler for a small cost and short term is consistent with building a future core. Fowler won’t be in anyone’s way. And it lets THIS year’s team have a chance to try and win.

He has also waived Kapanen and basically waived POJ. None of these players block a young guy or prevent the team from acquiring a young guy with term. And he continues to avoid rushing developing players until they’re ready.

My criticism of your argument is that all of these moves are internally consistent with his vision and with the execution of this plan. You can fault the core he’s assembling and point out the still-present holes that need to be addressed. Thats a pretty solid argument, and includes answers he hasn’t yet found. But signing short term contracts to guys to fill out the roster and trading for a veteran defenseman to optimize their chances now doesn’t nullify the larger plan. It’s intelligent GMing. It shows respect to your players and coaches (and fans) that you’re trying to win. It helps the coach instill the type of culture of competitiveness that young guys need to learn as they become professionals.

 

[TheOrganist]

I see no contradiction at all. Acquiring Fowler for a small cost and short term is consistent with building a future core. Fowler won’t be in anyone’s way. And it lets THIS year’s team have a chance to try and win.

He has also waived Kapanen and basically waived POJ. None of these players block a young guy or prevent the team from acquiring a young guy with term. And he continues to avoid rushing developing players until they’re ready.

My criticism of your argument is that all of these moves are internally consistent with his vision and with the execution of this plan. You can fault the core he’s assembling and point out the still-present holes that need to be addressed. Thats a pretty solid argument, and includes answers he hasn’t yet found. But signing short term contracts to guys to fill out the roster and trading for a veteran defenseman to optimize their chances now doesn’t nullify the larger plan. It’s intelligent GMing. It shows respect to your players and coaches (and fans) that you’re trying to win. It helps the coach instill the type of culture of competitiveness that young guys need to learn as they become professionals.

Well said. And this doesn't seem difficult to comprehend...Armstrong has pretty much laid it out there. Our friend is just being intentionally obtuse.

 

[ChicagoBlues]

Well said. And this doesn't seem difficult to comprehend...Armstrong has pretty much laid it out there. Our friend is just being intentionally obtuse.

It goes waaaaaaay beyond mere obtuseness.

 

[A Real Barn Burner]

If you think Army is open and honest then I'm sure he has some lovely ocean-front property in St. Louis he'd be happy to sell you. He's one cagey MF. Everything he says is calculated. I don't think he lies but he never gives you the whole truth.

Army said there was a plan, he wasn't going to rush and he was going to focus on players that fit within the core. He kept reiterating they were sticking to the plan. Then he makes a mid-season trade for one of the oldest players on the team. If he's so open and honest, why did he trade for a 33 year old with less than 2 years when he said he was looking for 26 year olds with term?

The players know it's a business and know it's a cap league. They understand sometimes you need to take a step back to go forward. If they didn't every team that has ever been a seller at the deadline would be mired in permanent losing. The Blues traded away players at the deadline the 2 deadlines in a row before winning the cup, both years they were in the playoff hunt (Shatty in 2017, Stasny in 2018). Did the players suddenly quit because the GM didn't believe in them?

Minor point but Schenn didn’t like the Stastny trade and openly spoke out about that during an Interview. I believe it was an intermission interview on the Blues broadcast the next game if I recall correctly. While certainly selling at the deadline doesn't make an organization a permanent losing one; I hope we can both agree that the direction management takes in any origination affects morale of that organization. If management sells it sends a signal they believe the team is not good enough to win it all. Selling at the deadline might not change an organization long term morale but it certainly send an immediate signal for the immediate future.

I don’t see how he is deviating, as you state he doesn’t want to rush players; Fowler taking the worst assignments with Parayko insulates Broberg and allow him to continue developing. I am sure it was never the plan for Leddy to be placed on IR. Sometime you have to change the plan. Semper Gumby.

Edit: Broberg is the most important piece right now of this re-whatever imho. Building from the back end out is the proper way to build a contender. Defenseman take longer to develop and securing a 1D before getting the 1C locked down in the draft is the way to go. Unfortunately with Thomas already being on the Blues we weren’t able to do it that way. Stealing 4 years of development from Edmonton gets the core more inline. A second for Fowler and the loss of POJ for nothing is a small price to pay to ensure Broberg develops properly into a 1D.

 

[Jersey Fan 12]

POJ knows their system and he is better than Graves or Shea.

Thought that was ludicrous but then just looked at Graves' numbers. He was +34 and contributed offensively two years ago with New Jersey.

Has his game fallen or is it just a case of players like Letang and Karlsson monopolizing the offensive roles?

 

[Majorityof1]

I see no contradiction at all. Acquiring Fowler for a small cost and short term is consistent with building a future core. Fowler won’t be in anyone’s way. And it lets THIS year’s team have a chance to try and win.

He has also waived Kapanen and basically waived POJ. None of these players block a young guy or prevent the team from acquiring a young guy with term. And he continues to avoid rushing developing players until they’re ready.

My criticism of your argument is that all of these moves are internally consistent with his vision and with the execution of this plan. You can fault the core he’s assembling and point out the still-present holes that need to be addressed. Thats a pretty solid argument, and includes answers he hasn’t yet found. But signing short term contracts to guys to fill out the roster and trading for a veteran defenseman to optimize their chances now doesn’t nullify the larger plan. It’s intelligent GMing. It shows respect to your players and coaches (and fans) that you’re trying to win. It helps the coach instill the type of culture of competitiveness that young guys need to learn as they become professionals.

I have pointed out issues with the core. Just because the trade doesn't block youth does not mean there us no downside. We are spending assets for band-aids that don't fit our timeline, just to address short term injuries. Now we have less assets to use to trade fir long term solutions.

People say a 2nd isn't a big deal, and its not a huge deal. I'm making more of it than it deserves just for the discussion. But it is still using an asset we could use for a long term fill. Broberg cost a 2nd as the main piece. I'd rather have a Broberg level player in 2027 than Fowler now. I'd rather have a 1% lottery ticket that we might have a chance at that than Fowler. Fowler just doesn't make sense given where we are at, especially if Leddy is ever coming back in the next year and a half.

There is no upside to Fowler. None that I care about at least. We will not be a competitive playoff team during his contract term. A year and a half of Makar or Hedman of whoever wouldn't fix this team. There are too many needs.

Army already signaled to the team he was willing to spend with the offer sheets and hiring Montgomery. If you don't want to overplay vets or rush kids, don't. Fowler helps you be a be mrore competitive than distributing minutes to lesser players. But as I stated, no single player would make us a playoff contender. Who cares if we get 5 more wins giving minutes to Fowler instead if Kessel or whoever?

 

[Majorityof1]

Minor point but Schenn didn’t like the Stastny trade and openly spoke out about that during an Interview. I believe it was an intermission interview on the Blues broadcast the next game if I recall correctly. While certainly selling at the deadline doesn't make an organization a permanent losing one; I hope we can both agree that the direction management takes in any origination affects morale of that organization. If management sells it sends a signal they believe the team is not good enough to win it all. Selling at the deadline might not change an organization long term morale but it certainly send an immediate signal for the immediate future.

I don’t see how he is deviating, as you state he doesn’t want to rush players; Fowler taking the worst assignments with Parayko insulates Broberg and allow him to continue developing. I am sure it was never the plan for Leddy to be placed on IR. Sometime you have to change the plan. Semper Gumby.

Edit: Broberg is the most important piece right now of this re-whatever imho. Building from the back end out is the proper way to build a contender. Defenseman take longer to develop and securing a 1D before getting the 1C locked down in the draft is the way to go. Unfortunately with Thomas already being on the Blues we weren’t able to do it that way. Stealing 4 years of development from Edmonton gets the core more inline. A second for Fowler and the loss of POJ for nothing is a small price to pay to ensure Broberg develops properly into a 1D.

Frankly, I don 't care if he liked it. People are saying you can't come back from a losing culture. We traded away players, lost, missed the playoffs. Schenn and others got over it after we made our moves the next off-season when the time was right. Right now, the time isn't right for a short term move.

We are 1 win in 3 games with Fowler. People are making excuses "oh NJs really good, TBs really good". WTF is the point of making a move for a short term bandaid if we still aren't good enough to beat the best teams? What is the point of addressing our D when we have Thomas-Schenn- M. Joseph,-Walker up the middle last game?

 

[shpongle falls]

They really needed to shore up their left side D though with Leddy being out indefinitely and Suter not being able to play 20 minutes every night.

But I agree center depth is a huge issue and they need a 2c super badly if they want to compete.

 

[Rudy Russo]

Thought that was ludicrous but then just looked at Graves' numbers. He was +34 and contributed offensively two years ago with New Jersey.

Has his game fallen or is it just a case of players like Letang and Karlsson monopolizing the offensive roles?

His last season in New Jersey he was paired with Marino and they played great together. Since he signed with the penguins he is a third pairing dman who plays on the PK. Sullivan did bench him prior to Pettersson getting hurt. Basically Dubas overpaid him and gave him a six year contract. Personally, I'd rather have POJ on the third line than Graves.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

Well said. And this doesn't seem difficult to comprehend...Armstrong has pretty much laid it out there. Our friend is just being intentionally obtuse.

I don't think he is being obtuse. I think he has a bit of a blindspot due to disliking Armstrong, so its coloring his perception of some of these moves/nonmoves. But he's a strong poster who lays out pretty logical arguments, and is not afraid to challenge the accepted gospel around here. I respect that. But on this, I think he's just wrong.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

I have pointed out issues with the core. Just because the trade doesn't block youth does not mean there us no downside. We are spending assets for band-aids that don't fit our timeline, just to address short term injuries. Now we have less assets to use to trade fir long term solutions.

People say a 2nd isn't a big deal, and its not a huge deal. I'm making more of it than it deserves just for the discussion. But it is still using an asset we could use for a long term fill. Broberg cost a 2nd as the main piece. I'd rather have a Broberg level player in 2027 than Fowler now. I'd rather have a 1% lottery ticket that we might have a chance at that than Fowler. Fowler just doesn't make sense given where we are at, especially if Leddy is ever coming back in the next year and a half.

There is no upside to Fowler. None that I care about at least. We will not be a competitive playoff team during his contract term. A year and a half of Makar or Hedman of whoever wouldn't fix this team. There are too many needs.

Army already signaled to the team he was willing to spend with the offer sheets and hiring Montgomery. If you don't want to overplay vets or rush kids, don't. Fowler helps you be a be mrore competitive than distributing minutes to lesser players. But as I stated, no single player would make us a playoff contender. Who cares if we get 5 more wins giving minutes to Fowler instead if Kessel or whoever?

I think of it as being willing to invest a 2nd in optimizing the developmental situation for a guy like Broberg. If it makes the team a fringe playoff team on the outside, rather than a team that is playing meaningless games with 2 months left, that's an investment in the development of the young core players. Its not just about Fowler in and of himself. It has a lot more to do with trying to end up with a high compete culture as guys like Dvorsky and the other tantalizing prospects start to arrive.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

Frankly, I don 't care if he liked it. People are saying you can't come back from a losing culture. We traded away players, lost, missed the playoffs. Schenn and others got over it after we made our moves the next off-season when the time was right. Right now, the time isn't right for a short term move.

We are 1 win in 3 games with Fowler. People are making excuses "oh NJs really good, TBs really good". WTF is the point of making a move for a short term bandaid if we still aren't good enough to beat the best teams? What is the point of addressing our D when we have Thomas-Schenn- M. Joseph,-Walker up the middle last game?

Hey, it might not work. But a sample size of 3 games isn't really going to sway anyone.

I may be misunderstanding you, but I don't think the year they traded Stastny then missed the playoffs is a 'losing culture' comparable to teams that intentionally tanked to try to cultivate lottery position. I remember the GM from Buffalo audibly swearing when Edmonton got McDavid and they got the consolation prize. And when has Buffalo has anything positive to look forward to since then?

Edmonton FINALLY turned it around to be a contender. I think that speaks to the generational talentS of McDavid and Draisitl both. And we'll see how long they can keep that window open, but its already looking screwed up.

I look around the league and see a lore more examples of high lottery teams that never went anywhere, than I do of teams that bottomed out and then turned into juggernauts later.

I'm not even really trying to argue Armstrong is right, as much as I am to point out that I think his moves have been internally consistent, and consistent over a long period of time.