Players Who Became The Opposite Of What They Were?

[MadLuke]

but then look like complete dopes when they have to cover someone?

Do they still do look like that during the Olympics or third period with a lead in the playoff ?

If not, it could be will, sacrifice and motivation, which is can be large part of doing it for people good enough to stay in the nhl without doing it.

Rick Nash with all his size, stick, strength and speed could look really good defensively with Team Canada, in an afternoon November game against Phoenix, not so sure if he always did.

Mario Lemieux being an other one, even old Mario in 2004 was still be a good 2 way forward went it needed to be.

And in those days he was definitely not known as a defensive guy. He was quite bad at it if I remember correctly.

Depend on who, there was a portion of MTL fans that still had some; if a defenceman is big and can use the Sherwood in front of the net = mediocre if not good defensively almost automatic.

Souray and Marc Andre Bergeron could score 25 in a year with their slapshop (Bergeron had an hard time being good enough to have the ice time, Souray actually did it). Souray only had like 10-15 goals his whole career before his return to the nhl in 2004... missing a whole year, could it have bbeen some injury (a bit like when he declined so fast after... wrist I think)

 

[Michael Farkas]

Sheldon Souray and Marc-Andre Bergeron will be henceforth known as "slopshop" and "slapslop"

 

[carjackmalone]

Rick Tochett

 

[Staniowski]

Looking back on the whole legend of Guy Carbonneau, I'm sort of not getting why he turned himself into a defensive specialist in the first place. Here was a French Canadian junior scoring sensation coming up in the early 80s, puts up nearly 100 points in the AHL and is poised to inherit that torch from Guy Lafleur... and he becomes a shut down center? Based on lineage, organizational need you'd think his quickest and most direct path to success would have been to harness those offensive gifts and lead the Habs into the second half of the 80s. And he turns himself into Bob Gainey the next generation? I just don't get that shift in mentality, especially at the height of those high flying 80s seasons.

The way you characterize Carbonneau's offensive talent - being poised to inherit the torch from Lafleur - is not accurate.

Carbonneau didn't have that kind of offensive talent. There are scoring stars in junior every year....that doesn't mean any of them can be scoring stars in the NHL. Carbonneau had some decent offensive talent but he would never have been an offensive star in the bigs.

His move to defensive star was largely encouraged by Lemaire, who promised Carbonneau lots of ice-time and increased importance on the team if he focused on defense. The '84 playoffs were really the beginning of Carbonneau as a great defensive player.

It was a great transition, and Carbonneau's play defined the Habs' style for the next decade.

 

[alko]

Zdeno Chara: What was his potential the day, Islanders drafted him in 1996? Looking to his WHL career, AHL games... Simply a tough guy, who will clear the zone. Who will fight, when necessary, who will check.

 

[Stephen]

The way you characterize Carbonneau's offensive talent - being poised to inherit the torch from Lafleur - is not accurate.

Carbonneau didn't have that kind of offensive talent. There are scoring stars in junior every year....that doesn't mean any of them can be scoring stars in the NHL. Carbonneau had some decent offensive talent but he would never have been an offensive star in the bigs.

His move to defensive star was largely encouraged by Lemaire, who promised Carbonneau lots of ice-time and increased importance on the team if he focused on defense. The '84 playoffs were really the beginning of Carbonneau as a great defensive player.

It was a great transition, and Carbonneau's play defined the Habs' style for the next decade.

That makes sense. Without knowing what Carbonneau’s capabilities “pre-transformation” and hear say about Lafleur liking his offensive game it’s difficult to get a gauge of whether it was a stylistic transformation or if he had to live within a skill limitations. Guess that also covers why he didn’t have an offensive breakout later in his career, a la Doug Gilmour or something.

 

[Hobnobs]

Zdeno Chara: What was his potential the day, Islanders drafted him in 1996? Looking to his WHL career, AHL games... Simply a tough guy, who will clear the zone. Who will fight, when necessary, who will check.

I know he was mentioned (With Ken Belanger) as the guy who was supposed to take over for Mick Vukota on the Isles in an article I read at the time. Don't know if that was actually a wide spread view of Chara or not.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I don't think Chara became the opposite of what he was, certainly. He might have out-performed his likely potential (I guess, I didn't see him in the Dub)...but opposite? I don't think that's gonna be a match for this thread...

 

[frontsfan2005]

Radek Bonk was drafted as a player with soft hands and a mean streak, as evidenced by his 42 goal, 208 PIM season with Las Vegas of the IHL as a 17/18 year old in 93-94 that helped him being drafted 3rd overall in the 1994 draft.

In the NHL, he peaked at 25 goals and 66 penalty minutes in a season and wasn't really known as a player with a "mean streak".

 

[Iron Mike Sharpe]

Not sure how often guys flipped to be fully "opposite" what they were, but there have been several players throughout the years who have had to make major adjustments to how they play the game.

Ron Wilson comes to mind: he was a small, speedy, skilled center who spent three years in development with the Habs' farm team the Nova Scotia Voyageurs. He joined the completely gutted Jets in their inaugural NHL season in 79-80 and found himself in the position as their number one center, driving offense on a line with Morris Lukowich and Willy Lindstrom. Wilson was a smart player and can maybe be thought of at the time as a poor man's Martin St. Louis - he was crafty and able to use his smaller stature and quick movements to set up plays in the offensive zone. BUT he was ultimately punching way above his weight, as his offensive talents were simply not of the calibre needed to be a true top 6 forward in the NHL.

Eventually, with the emergence of Dave Christian (later replaced by Laurie Boschman), Dale Hawerchuk and Thomas Steen down the middle, Wilson found himself back in the minors by 81-82 at age 25, and spent the better part of three seasons in the CHL-AHL after two seasons as a top 6 center for the team..

At some point he must have been told by the team, or figured it out for himself, that the only way for a guy like him to keep an NHL job is to become a fourth line checking center and penalty kill specialist. Ironically, defensive-minded coach Tom Watt had not seemed to envision this role for Wilson, but when Watt was turfed new coach (and former teammate) Barry Long started playing Wilson regularly on the penalty kill unit alongside Doug Smail.

It took him a couple of seasons to fully stabilize in his new role, but by 86-87, at age 30, he had emerged as one of the best 4th line checking centers in the league, known as a good faceoff man and an effective PKer, with John Ferguson loudly beating the Selke drum on his behalf. He was able to use his size and speed to his advantage, particularly on the PK, as he could get in close and strip the puck from his opponents, and was adept at moving the puck up the ice on the PK, and getting back into the d-zone quickly if the play shifted.

As he aged, he found himself back in the AHL for a full season at age 32, and it looked like his career was coming to the end of the line, despite the fact that he put up 92 points in Moncton. At age 33, he was dealt to the Blues mid-season, and he was recalled immediately and given a job with the club, and put up 20 points in 33 games, his best offensive effort since 81. He had the full confidence of coach Brian Sutter and at an age when most guys from his generation were done, Wilson reinvented himself again as a versatile two-way player who could play up and down the lineup and slot into any forward position, playing both checking and complementary scoring roles, much like the Blues captain Rick Meagher, a speedy two-way player who won the Selke in Wilson's first season with the Blues. Meagher retired the following year, and Wilson stepped up and took over his role and played a solid three seasons for the Blues. He had one final campaign in 94 with the Habs before hanging up his skates for good at 37.

Definitely one of the oddest career trajectories in NHL history.

 

[BarnabyJones PI]

Not sure how often guys flipped to be fully "opposite" what they were, but there have been several players throughout the years who have had to make major adjustments to how they play the game.

Ron Wilson comes to mind: he was a small, speedy, skilled center who spent three years in development with the Habs' farm team the Nova Scotia Voyageurs. He joined the completely gutted Jets in their inaugural NHL season in 79-80 and found himself in the position as their number one center, driving offense on a line with Morris Lukowich and Willy Lindstrom. Wilson was a smart player and can maybe be thought of at the time as a poor man's Martin St. Louis - he was crafty and able to use his smaller stature and quick movements to set up plays in the offensive zone. BUT he was ultimately punching way above his weight, as his offensive talents were simply not of the calibre needed to be a true top 6 forward in the NHL.

Eventually, with the emergence of Dave Christian (later replaced by Laurie Boschman), Dale Hawerchuk and Thomas Steen down the middle, Wilson found himself back in the minors by 81-82 at age 25, and spent the better part of three seasons in the CHL-AHL after two seasons as a top 6 center for the team..

At some point he must have been told by the team, or figured it out for himself, that the only way for a guy like him to keep an NHL job is to become a fourth line checking center and penalty kill specialist. Ironically, defensive-minded coach Tom Watt had not seemed to envision this role for Wilson, but when Watt was turfed new coach (and former teammate) Barry Long started playing Wilson regularly on the penalty kill unit alongside Doug Smail.

It took him a couple of seasons to fully stabilize in his new role, but by 86-87, at age 30, he had emerged as one of the best 4th line checking centers in the league, known as a good faceoff man and an effective PKer, with John Ferguson loudly beating the Selke drum on his behalf. He was able to use his size and speed to his advantage, particularly on the PK, as he could get in close and strip the puck from his opponents, and was adept at moving the puck up the ice on the PK, and getting back into the d-zone quickly if the play shifted.

As he aged, he found himself back in the AHL for a full season at age 32, and it looked like his career was coming to the end of the line, despite the fact that he put up 92 points in Moncton. At age 33, he was dealt to the Blues mid-season, and he was recalled immediately and given a job with the club, and put up 20 points in 33 games, his best offensive effort since 81. He had the full confidence of coach Brian Sutter and at an age when most guys from his generation were done, Wilson reinvented himself again as a versatile two-way player who could play up and down the lineup and slot into any forward position, playing both checking and complementary scoring roles, much like the Blues captain Rick Meagher, a speedy two-way player who won the Selke in Wilson's first season with the Blues. Meagher retired the following year, and Wilson stepped up and took over his role and played a solid three seasons for the Blues. He had one final campaign in 94 with the Habs before hanging up his skates for good at 37.

Definitely one of the oddest career trajectories in NHL history.

Great read!

 

[Brodeur]

Maybe not complete opposite, but my knee jerk thought was Adam Larsson. When the Devils drafted him, we thought we'd be getting a PPQB; Right before the draft, Scottie Bowman said that Larsson reminded him more of Larry Murphy than say Nicklas Lidstrom. As an 18 year old, the Devils shoehorned Larsson onto PP1 but you could feel his confidence erode by the midway point of that season.

Devils handled Larsson poorly in his first couple years in the league, but he eventually settled into a solid EV/PK minute eating stay at home D who hasn't gotten much time on the PP.

 

[MS]

Great to see folks quickly working their way into a fairly uncommon concept...hockey sense is bilateral. No such thing as "offensive hockey sense" and "defensive hockey sense"

Defense is the inverse of offense. While it is true it is easier to destroy than it is to create, the very best defensive players had very strong offensive skills and deceptive qualities. They apply the mental and technical aspects combined with the physical to prevent offense by cutting lanes, mirroring movement, etc.

Ehhhhhh ... there is a fairly large demographic of players running from Pierre Larouche through Trevor Zegras who are/were magicians with the puck offensively but totally lacked any sort of ability to do the most basic things on the other side of the puck.

On the other side of things you have a guy like Brandon Sutter who was a speedy, rangy, quality defensive C with high defensive IQ and sound positioning ... and once completed a full 82-game NHL season with 1 primary assist, from a puck that bounced off his foot. Literally zero offensive IQ or ability to use his linemates.

Actually, Souray is kind of a good one. At least the way I remember his reputation before his big year in montreal, he was just a defensive bottom pairing zero scoring kind of guy. And then next thing you know he was playing on top pairings and top power play units and scoring 15 goals and 60 points. And in those days he was definitely not known as a defensive guy. He was quite bad at it if I remember correctly.

It's kind of a strange one because hockey sense is one of those things you either have or don't have. And if he was actually effective defensively at all prior to 2004, it mustn't have been because of an abundance of sense, perhaps it was believed that he had limitations offensively that he had to be one of those simple meat and potatoes kinds of guys. And then once he proved that he had the skills to transcend that role, it's like it went to his head and he figured "I'm a superstar and this is my meal ticket". And then it became obvious how little sense he had.

I'll re-post what I wrote about Souray a few years ago :

Souray had one of the weirdest career arcs in NHL history.

He was this injury-prone #6-7 defensive defender who was a low-talent banger and a poor man's Cale Hulse who never really showed any offensive ability at any level through his mid-late 20s. 9 points in the WHL in his draft year. 13 points in 82 AHL games. Through 5 NHL seasons averaged barely more than 10 points/82 GP.

Then at age 26 he missed an entire season with a wrist injury. And then - kind of like that plot from that Hollywood movie where the kid breaks his arm and then then can throw 100 MPH after it heals - somehow came back from that injury with some sort of super power and turned into a PP god. Still didn't produce much at ES - in his 64 point season he had 13 ES points and 48 PP points - but for a few years turned into a hell of a one-trick pony with the man advantage.

In the history of the league there isn't really anything like it. Lowell MacDonald's post-retirement comeback is probably the only thing close, but at least he was a reasonably skilled player before his retirement/rebirth.

_____________

I'll add Jamie Rivers and Marty Reasoner to this thread, both of whom interestingly were St. Louis prospects at the same time.

Rivers was an all-offense/no-D defender nicknamed the 'Riverboat Gambler' who once scored 121 points in junior and then proceeded to become one of the most boring, conservative, low-offense defender in NHL history. Averaged 10 points/82 GP from 1997-2007 over 400+ games.

Reasoner was drafted as a butter-soft offensive C who earned all kinds of Craig Janney comparisons and somewhere along the way turned into one of the grittiest shot-blocking 4Cs in the NHL.

 

[hypereconomist]

Draft profiles back in 2007 touted Mikael Backlund as a "speedy playmaker with soft hands". He was supposed to become a top6 offense-oriented centerman.

Thanks to Brent Sutter's mismanagement and the later emergence of Johnny Gaudreau as the linchpin of the Flames' offense, Backlund turned into one of the best defensive forwards in the league.

Still a good career, but much different than Flames fans were expecting.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Actually, Souray is kind of a good one. At least the way I remember his reputation before his big year in montreal, he was just a defensive bottom pairing zero scoring kind of guy. And then next thing you know he was playing on top pairings and top power play units and scoring 15 goals and 60 points. And in those days he was definitely not known as a defensive guy. He was quite bad at it if I remember correctly.

It's kind of a strange one because hockey sense is one of those things you either have or don't have. And if he was actually effective defensively at all prior to 2004, it mustn't have been because of an abundance of sense, perhaps it was believed that he had limitations offensively that he had to be one of those simple meat and potatoes kinds of guys. And then once he proved that he had the skills to transcend that role, it's like it went to his head and he figured "I'm a superstar and this is my meal ticket". And then it became obvious how little sense he had.

Souray had one of the weirdest career arcs in NHL history.

He was this injury-prone #6-7 defensive defender who was a low-talent banger and a poor man's Cale Hulse who never really showed any offensive ability at any level through his mid-late 20s. 9 points in the WHL in his draft year. 13 points in 82 AHL games. Through 5 NHL seasons averaged barely more than 10 points/82 GP.

Then at age 26 he missed an entire season with a wrist injury. And then - kind of like that plot from that Hollywood movie where the kid breaks his arm and then then can throw 100 MPH after it heals - somehow came back from that injury with some sort of super power and turned into a PP god. Still didn't produce much at ES - in his 64 point season he had 13 ES points and 48 PP points - but for a few years turned into a hell of a one-trick pony with the man advantage.

In the history of the league there isn't really anything like it. Lowell MacDonald's post-retirement comeback is probably the only thing close, but at least he was a reasonably skilled player before his retirement/rebirth.

i know souray’s talked a lot about his career being in jeopardy and settling down and having a kid helping him to get his head right and dedicating himself to his craft. i wonder if the intensive rehab he must have had to do also played a part here to fix his technique or allow him to get his shot off quicker and more reliably.

There are plenty of examples of big, lumbering, "shut down" defensemen finding their offensive legs (usually stemming from a bit slap shot) and developing into threats who put up lots of points. Chara & Pronger are immediate examples, though they are all-time greats so I chalk that up more to natural development. I'm more thinking about players like Souray, McCabe, Aucoin, etc.

mccabe i think doesn’t fit this bill. even on the canucks as a youngster, he was regarded as having nice offensive upside, although not to the degree that kaberle feeding him passes opened up. he also was the top offensive guy, along with jamie rivers (mentioned upthread), on the great 1995 canada WJC team. and i don’t know that young mccabe, or young aucoin for that matter, were ever thought of as shutdown dmen.

but one guy that maybe fits the model nicely is mark tinordi? he had a nice, and surprising, offensive run with minnesota in the early 90s.

 

[seventieslord]

It's also important to note that in those cases, it's usually power play-driven and it's usually not indicative of a very significant uptick in their even strength production.

(You can add Garrison to that list)

 

[MXD]

Maybe it's only me, but Paul Mara quickly went from somewhat PP guy with decent offence to designated (and pretty bad) face-puncher. It's probably just a thing where his speed, not THAT great to begin with, went away, making him a liability on the PP and generally, but being 6'4 210 pounds meant he could do 6'4 210 pounds things.

 

[Michael Farkas]

My memory might be a little fuzzy, and maybe he doesn't quite apply to this thread, but wasn't Nick Boynton supposed to be.......better? And then he turned into sort of 6/7 roughian...?

 

[Dog]

Wendel Clark drafted as defenseman/LW then was switched to LW for rest of his career after draft. If it was not for injuries he might have been the best power forward in the entire NHL.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I wouldn't call Clark an opposite case, really. He was a wild d-man that was too "out there" for the pro game to be reasonably effective and it's hard to hide d-men...he basically did the same [stuff] at wing...he only had one setting.

 

[dalewood12]

If you would have told people that Crosby, after winning the Art Ross in his sophomore year, would end up with as many Rocket Richard as Art Ross trophies, you would have been called crazy.

 

[The Panther]

If you would have told people that Crosby, after winning the Art Ross in his sophomore year, would end up with as many Rocket Richard as Art Ross trophies, you would have been called crazy.

Or that he would retire (I think we can now assume) with as many Art Ross trophies as Dickie Moore and Martin St. Louis....

 

[DitchMarner]

If you would have told people that Crosby, after winning the Art Ross in his sophomore year, would end up with as many Rocket Richard as Art Ross trophies, you would have been called crazy.

Re Crosby: I wouldn't say he became the opposite of what he was when he broke in, but he was talked about as if he was going to be the modern-day Gretzky and he obviously didn't live up to that projection although he was an excellent scorer; the last decade or so, he's been talked about more in the vein of guys like Trottier, Messier, Yzerman ("he's a winner, a great leader, a guy who battles and plays the right way").

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

they didn’t change as players but the career arcs of jagr and luongo were a wild ride in terms of perception.

towards the later, falling off pts of their peaks fans turned on them and there were years of bitter incessant negativity. then when they became old men, it turned around and suddenly they became everybody’s loveable uncle.

 

[McGarnagle]

Bergeron doesn't exactly fit the mold but before his concussion in 2007 he was much more of an offensive force, scoring thirty goals as a number one center. After coming back in 08-09 he transformed into the elite defender and Selke record holder he became. He came full-circle and unlocked the offensive talent again at the end of his career.

A lot of it was coaching and surrounding cast, but he did have a real career arc. Under Sullivan and Lewis he was more offensive minded, under Julien way more defense oriented, especially as Krejci came to take on the scoring center burden. Then under Cassidy his offense came back, especially after they put Pasta on his wing.