Players Who Are Less Than Their Resumes?

[DitchMarner]

I think most if not all serious fans have players they consider less impressive than their careers look on paper.

Who are players you think aren't as good as their accomplishments make them look? Whether it's because of great players and/or teams elevating them. weak competition, injuries to rivals at unfortunate (or fortunate, depending on perspective) times or other factors, which players have careers that are flattering to their actual abilities and impact?

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[BigBadBruins7708]

I'm going with Price. His entire career all you heard was the hype and potential but he really only put it together and hit that level for about 18 months of his career.

Outside of the Hart his career and #s are equal to Tuukka Rask.

.917/2.51 and 110 GSAA for Price vs .921/2.28 and 149 GSAA for Rask.

1x AS-1 for Price vs 1x AS-1 and 1x AS-2 for Rask.

1,3,4,5,7,9,10 Vezina for Price vs 1,2,5,7,7 for Rask.

 

[MadLuke]

Not a big thing, or by much, but in general left winger all-star team finish can make them look more impressive than they were (i.e. having a top 1-2 a year they would not cracked the top 3/4 at center or right wing).

Yzerman almost retired with 0 all-star team to his name, Hawerchuck a single second team, Robitaille has 8, Tkachuck 2.

Kunitz has a first team all star, during a season that the art ross winner Martin St-Louis was on the second team as a right wing, pushing someone like Patrick Kane on the Hawks superteam-super season out of a all-star finish.

Outside of the Hart his career and #s are equal to Tuukka Rask.

So are you saying Price was less than Rask as a player, I could see the argument for Price > his limited resume, but the other way around ?

 

[jigglysquishy]

I'm going with Price. His entire career all you heard was the hype and potential but he really only put it together and hit that level for about 18 months of his career.

Outside of the Hart his career and #s are equal to Tuukka Rask.

.917/2.51 and 110 GSAA for Price vs .921/2.28 and 149 GSAA for Rask.

1x AS-1 for Price vs 1x AS-1 and 1x AS-2 for Rask.

1,3,4,5,7,9,10 Vezina for Price vs 1,2,5,7,7 for Rask.

Price is the inverse of this.

His paper resume isn't great, whether by AS finishes or Vezina. But there was a five year period where he was considered the best goalie in the world.

This thread is more for a guy like Martin St. Louis. Point finishes of 1,1,2,5,6 overstates how good he is.

 

[Crosby2010]

Not a big thing, or by much, but in general left winger all-star team finish can make them look more impressive than they were (i.e. having a top 1-2 a year they would not cracked the top 3/4 at center or right wing).

Yzerman almost retired with 0 all-star team to his name, Hawerchuck a single second team, Robitaille has 8, Tkachuck 2.

Kunitz has a first team all star, during a season that the art ross winner Martin St-Louis was on the second team as a right wing, pushing someone like Patrick Kane on the Hawks superteam-super season out of a all-star finish.


So are you saying Price was less than Rask as a player, I could see the argument for Price > his limited resume, but the other way around ?

Easy to forget, but Yzerman was a 1st team all-star in 2000. So just once, and he has a ton of seasons better before that but centre was a weak position in the late 1990s, early 2000s. But I see your point. By the way, that 2013 year was an unusual one because Ovechkin was a 1st team all-star at RW and a 2nd teamer at LW. This is why Kunitz was 1st team at LW. I have no idea why this happened. Maybe my memory is confused and Ovechkin played a good chunk of RW that year. But either way he certainly wasn't playing both enough to garner all-stars at both sides. The writers really fell asleep here. So the best right wingers in the game that year were St. Louis and Kane. And the best left wingers were Ovechkin and I guess Kunitz if you had to pick. But you can't tell me the likes of Zetterberg or even Taylor Hall weren't better than him that year. We all know where Kunitz's bread was buttered.

 

[VanIslander]

The difference between Pail Coffey and Phil Housley is Wayne Gretzky, Mark Messier, Jari Kurri, Mario Lemieux, Jaromir Jagr, Steve Yzerman, Sergei Fedorov.

(Housley had the equivalent of Glenn Anderson, Mark Recchi, Dino Ciccarelli, Slava Kozlov, Igor Larionov).

EDIT: "Pail" Coffey, pre-Internet, was a nickname locally for how friggin' easy Coffey got points. He earned half of them, certainly. But given his defensive gaffs, eh,... ship him out of town if your pp and passing game can handle it!

I say this as a guy whose last jersey number in minor hockey was number 7 in 1983 to honor Coffey's offensive game, i a foot-out-the-door left dman with backhand chip pass and backchecking ability but pined for more, obviously.

I also attended games at the Joe in '94 & '95 when in grad school in Windsor literally within eyeshot of the arena across from the Detroit River; Coffey pulled often a Cliff Ronning... circling, awaiting a teammate to recover pucks to join the counterattack. It was embarrassing. It drew boos from blue collar faithful (as Jason Spezza did, doing similarly at Windsor Spitfire games i attended there), but it got him often a point or two a game. Ugh.

 

[MadLuke]

Easy to forget, but Yzerman was a 1st team all-star in 2000. So just once,

Yes it was a typo if you read the message before saying almost retired without one, Sakic-Forsberg do not miss that many game that year and Forsberg (or if Lindros goes in an other way) play and up no all-star team finish for him.

. Maybe my memory is confused and Ovechkin played a good chunk of RW that year. But either way he certainly wasn't playing both enough to garner all-stars at both sides. The writers really fell asleep here. So the best right wingers in the game that year were St. Louis and Kane.

I think Oates made him mostly a right winger and people voted for leftwing going with muscle memory.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I'm going with Price. His entire career all you heard was the hype and potential but he really only put it together and hit that level for about 18 months of his career.

So, you got the thread's intent exactly backwards then...?

 

[WarriorofTime]

Ray Bourque, he's got one heck of a resume that seems like GOAT'd DMan ever, but is probably a little shy of that.

Trophies and leaders​

• Won the Calder Memorial Trophy in 1980
• Won the Norris Trophy in 1987, 1988, 1990, 1991 and 1994
• Won the King Clancy Memorial Trophy in 1992
• Received the Lester Patrick Trophy in 2003
• Stanley Cup champion in 2001
• Led the NHL in shots in 1984, 1987 and 1995

NHL All-Star teams​

• NHL first team All-Star in 1980, 1982, 1984, 1985, 1987, 1988, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1996, and 2001.
• Second Team All-Star in 1981, 1983, 1986, 1989, 1995 and 1999.

NHL All-Star Game​

• Named to play in the All-Star Game for the 19th consecutive season, 2001; Bourque also appeared in the All-Star Game in every season that it was held during his career (there was no game in 1987 or 1995).
• Most Valuable Player of the All-Star Game in 1996.
• Won the NHL All-star Game Shooting Accuracy Competition in 1990, 1992, 1993, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, and 2001.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Again, versus the resume is the deal here...

M.Richard - It's tough because he is supremely technically skilled, but wingers that don't do much but shoot I just find to be overrated by the whole winger AST and the unbalanced attack. In the context of top 10 or whatever, I'll pass.

Ovechkin - Same basic deal as Richard really. All time great, but I'd strongly prefer players with more dimension. (inb4 "he has SO MANY dimensions!")

T.Lindsay - Again the LW thing, but he's a super worker, but not very efficient. Played like he was being chased by bees.

Tony Esposito - I talked about him at length in the goalie project thread. He's not a missing link butterfly guy...he's a guesser and kind of a mess. He got what he deserved in the playoffs. But I could fill this list with goalies right now haha - Gump Worsley for instance.

Norm Ullman - I never really thought 1300 points or whatever he had matched his play. I will say that in going back through the goalie tape, he did pop a little better at times. Still...101 on our list? Get lost...

Peter Stastny - Does anyone have any idea who has the 2nd most points in the 80's? Anyone? Has anyone heard that one? We get it. I'd like to go back and see if he was even better than Goulet. We have him ahead of Dale Hawerchuk? Boo. We have him over Gilbert Perreault? I should be rolled up in a carpet and thrown in a lake if I'm responsible for that.

A couple years ago, I might have said Red Kelly here, but he had some really nice games when I was doing the goalie stuff, so I don't think that anymore.

 

[MadLuke]

seems like GOAT'd DMan ever

But he is not the only one at that position with one, if we look at Lidstrom

7x Norris
12x all star teams (8x first team, 2xsecond team)
1 Smythe, 4 cup

Orr:
8x Norris
2x Ross
2x Smythe at the 2 cup
3x Hart
Pearson
+124 record season
1976 canada cup MVP

Most points, most 100 points season for a D, etc...

M.Richard -

0 Art Ross, single Hart, no conn smythe at the time, 8 all star first team is a lot, but he did compete with Howe for a lot of those. No international anything, I guess obviously the 8 cups on the resume could be more than any player ever, but he has not a particular big stacked regular season trophy case, 5 retroactive Rocket trophy, like Conacher, Howe, Gretzky, less than Esposito, does he not belong among them as a goalscorer ?

 

[Thenameless]

Okay, I'll go with two guys here.

First one is Corey Perry. He's got a lot more hardware (Hart and Rocket) than his contemporary and teammate Ryan Getzlaf. If you go strictly with the trophy case Perry looks way better, but if you watched them a lot you would know that Getzlaf was more important to the team and the better overall player.

Second one is Taylor Hall. He has a Hart which often goes to the best player in the league and he was never close to that. He was also drafted first overall. When you look at his contemporary, Tyler Seguin, drafted second overall in the same year, Seguin has no individual NHL hardware. The gap isn't huge, but I do think Seguin is the better player.

This very much relates to what MadLuke is saying in Post #3. Perry and Hall are more pure goal scoring wingers, but they probably aren't as good an overall player as their centreman counterparts in Getzlaf and Seguin.

 

[seventieslord]

Price is the inverse of this.

His paper resume isn't great, whether by AS finishes or Vezina. But there was a five year period where he was considered the best goalie in the world.

This thread is more for a guy like Martin St. Louis. Point finishes of 1,1,2,5,6 overstates how good he is.

came in here to say this. Price's resume doesn't match his hype/talent/legacy, whatever you want to call it. Vernon is the anti-Price. He has all those bullet point achievements and wasn't half the player Price was.

 

[Michael Farkas]

0 Art Ross, single Hart, no conn smythe at the time, 8 all star first team is a lot, but he did compete with Howe for a lot of those. No international anything, I guess obviously the 8 cups on the resume could be more than any player ever, but he has not a particular big stacked regular season trophy case, 5 retroactive Rocket trophy, like Conacher, Howe, Gretzky, less than Esposito, does he not belong among them as a goalscorer ?

Perhaps I gave our ranking here a little too much credit as the "resume". Fair play.

 

[MadLuke]

I wonder where Fleury fit there, high talent obviously and the yoga still body to have such longevity, in some part the resume is insane.

WJ MVP, Vezina, 3 cups (*2 game played in 2016, did really well in 2017 but Murray took the net back), all-decade first team, could he reach 600 win, 100 playoff win.

In other it is down to earth, no other top 3 vezina or all star team outside the Vezina season, lost his spot in the playoff-regular season during his should have been prime, -24 career GSAA, never made team Canada post juniors, so maybe it averages out an ok in line resume when you weight all of it.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Hard to place Fleury here. He was underrated early in his career. And now overrated by the end probably. I guess it depends...ultimately, I think he's probably better than his resume would indicate.

 

[MadLuke]

What bout Ken Dryden, 258w-57L, .922 career save percentage, 6x cup, calder, smythe,, 5 vezina, all that in just 7 season (all star team in all but one of his career)

Hart: 2-4-4 despite his own team competition, 317.2 career GSAA in only 397 games, Montreal did not do that well in 1974 without him which is a big plus on his resume, the list is long considering, should he not be talked about a bit like Hasek-Roy for the best prime with that resume, are we too harsh for the summer series, the guy won in average 10 playoff games a year, in an era where the max was often 12 for Montreal !

He was probably less than that, not having to play against Mtl versus all the other goaltender of his time and playing for them, even if we say he is one of the best ever at it.

 

[buffalowing88]

St. Louis is perfect for this. I never thought he was as good as his reputation suggested, even on this forum.

A hotter take for me would be Pronger for the first half of his career or so. That 2000 MVP race was a weak, weak year and it took him a long time to balance out having an edge and still impacting the game with his skill. Everything he did 03-10 made him properly rated, but I was pretty underwhelmed for awhile there.

 

[Crosby2010]

Part of me says Fleury belongs on this thread and part of me doesn't. Three Cups and a Vezina and will end up 2nd overall in wins. 5 times he was on teams who went to the Cup final. In 2016 while he only played 2 playoff games, he played 58 regular season games. To say he wasn't a big part of that team is inaccurate. If anything he is like Phil Simms in 1990. Simms played pretty much all of the regular season, got hurt, had Jeff Hostetler do an admirable job for the Giants in the postseason and get them the Super Bowl. Simms was a huge part of those 1990 Giants. Fleury was a huge part of the 2016 Pens. The 2009 and 2017 Pens we know he played in the playoffs. And 2008 and 2018 he was the starter the whole playoffs and was excellent in a finals loss. The Conn Smythe probably goes to Crosby in a winning cause in 2008, but it easily goes to Fleury in 2018. He has some serious longevity and career accomplishments. I also don't know if there is a goalie better at breakaways (minus Hasek) in NHL history, and this includes shootouts. He was dynamite.

Would Fleury be like the Ron Francis of goalies? In other words Francis is not a top 5 offensive player in NHL history, but his point totals suggest he is. Of course, Fleury had some erratic moments in his career. I think especially with his Vegas career he more than made up for any playoff woes in the middle of his career. Yeah, I don't know where to put him on this list. He's in the Hall eventually though.